Indian Saras Plane Program

[Raj-Hindustani]

Maybe because the design consultant is Dassault. Dassault has more experience with delta wing fighter like Mirage.

If Tejas project consultant is Lockheed Martin, then higher possibility they will just refine that Marut design

True, but if I look at any fighter program in the world, whether it's the Mig 1, Su1, YAK 1, or any other fighter program,

There was no jump from A to Y or X, and the way we abandoned any project after years of hard work is simply unbelievable.

We are working on the HAL Tejas Mk1, Mka1, and Mk2 after a fruitless year. Considering that we've already begun producing HAL Marut and HAL Ajeet in 1970s, all recourses were wasted.

 

[Indos]

True, but if I look at any fighter program in the world, whether it's the Mig 1, Su1, YAK 1, or any other fighter program,

There was no jump from A to Y or X, and the way we abandoned any project after years of hard work is simply unbelievable.

We are working on the HAL Tejas Mk1, Mka1, and Mk2 after a fruitless year. Considering that we've already begun producing HAL Marut and HAL Ajeet in 1970s, all recourses were wasted.

Yup, it is better to develop plane based on our previous experience

Data that has already been taken during wind tunnel tests and flight tests are just very valuable. This is also why Indonesian R80 program is not really coming from zero again, but it is a continuation of previous N250 program. It will be a perfection of previous N 250 planes. Despite the N250 project has been ended, but many data are still there. R80 (80-100 seats plane) is also a bigger plane than N 250 (50 seats plane)

The same like Indonesian Aerospace plan to develop N 245, it will be based on CN 235.

 

[Hellfire2006]

Yep, who is manufacturing the plane anyway, HAL ?

Is there any possibility for TATA that will manufacture Saras Mark 2 ?

I wish TATA makes it, But I think saras mk2 will be made by HAL as it had a role in developing many of the technologies involved in the saras program.

 

[Hellfire2006]

True, but if I look at any fighter program in the world, whether it's the Mig 1, Su1, YAK 1, or any other fighter program,

There was no jump from A to Y or X, and the way we abandoned any project after years of hard work is simply unbelievable.

We are working on the HAL Tejas Mk1, Mka1, and Mk2 after a fruitless year. Considering that we've already begun producing HAL Marut and HAL Ajeet in 1970s, all recourses were wasted.

Tejas series in itself is a completely different design and built with a different purpose, it simply dosent make sense to compare it with Marut. Marut was a fighter bomber, which had good performance as a strike aircraft and did well in providing CAS, but it simply wasn't a capable interceptor like the Mig21, the whole Tejas program was started keeping in mind the need to replace the Mig21 with a new light weight and affordable interceptor. The program is an astounding success and outperforms it's peers in many ways, Tejas Program overall is very successful with a huge number of orders on it's log. The critical technologies developed for the program have increased the level of sophistication of the indian industry manifold on par with many western and east asian nations. This being said, I do agree that Marut shouldn't have been abandoned the way it was, rather the buying Jaguars for deep strike and CAS we could have modified our Maruts and turned them into extremely capable strike platforms

 

[Indos]

I wish TATA makes it, But I think saras mk2 will be made by HAL as it had a role in developing many of the technologies involved in the saras program.

From what I see, both HAL and TATA hands are already full. Indian Aerospace companies are lucky with 75 billion USD defense spending that Indian gov spend each year.

Saras program is not really a lifeblood line program for both HAL and TATA for their medium term business growth. TATA is also still busy with C 295 program.

For Indonesian Aerospace, we need N219 program (similar class with Saras) to make the company grows as the current sales for CN235 and NC 212 is not something that can make the company grow, but just to sustain the company business, retaining the design engineers.

 

[Hellfire2006]

From what I see, both HAL and TATA hands are already full. Indian Aerospace companies are lucky with 75 billion USD defense spending that Indian gov spend each year.

Saras program is not really a lifeblood line program for both HAL and TATA for their medium term business growth. TATA is also still busy with C 295 program.

For Indonesian Aerospace, we need N219 program (similar class with Saras) to make the company grows as the current sales for CN235 and NC 212 is not something that can make the company grow, but just to sustain the company business, retaining the design engineers.

I think when it comes to civillian aircraft segment both indian as well as Indonesian manufactures lack innovation. India and indonesia are just copying existing designs to make their respective Regional airliners with Limited capacities, in an increasingly competitive market dominated by major Giants like Boeing, Airbus and some medium ones like Embraer and bombardier it is the need of the hour to innovate on new platforms and introduce critical technologies for our respective aircraft industries to grow and succeed. There's a lot of scope for india and indonesia to cooperate in the aerospace industry. I think Saras and N219 are steps in the right direction for both india and Indonesia respectively because both are products of in house innovation.

 

[datafreak]

Have you read the full specifications of purpose new trainer and compared with Hal Tejas Mk1?

Hal Tejas is based on 20th century, Mirage fighter aircrafts... Nothing related to new evolutionary aircraft design of 21st century

There are aspects of Tejas that the trainer cannot match
- Structure- instead of composites, made of metal to keep the costs low
- Assumed that the performance will not be at Tejas level. It will be used for training pilots in intermediate/ advanced levels but never at Mach 1.8/2, high sustained turns etc- to accomodate that you have the Tejas Trainer version before pilots actually fly them
- Designed to take more wear and tear and heavy usage, easy repair, basically 'outlast' than 'out perform'

You don't need a eurofighter to do that stuff. Just because it is a derivative of the Marut doesn't make it 'old and useless'. It is only 'inspired' by the Marut in exteriors.

From what I see, both HAL and TATA hands are already full. Indian Aerospace companies are lucky with 75 billion USD defense spending that Indian gov spend each year.

Saras program is not really a lifeblood line program for both HAL and TATA for their medium term business growth. TATA is also still busy with C 295 program.

For Indonesian Aerospace, we need N219 program (similar class with Saras) to make the company grows as the current sales for CN235 and NC 212 is not something that can make the company grow, but just to sustain the company business, retaining the design engineers.

Saras is extremely important for the IAF to take care of low weight transportation requirements. Will help us replace the likes of the Donears.

Yup, it is better to develop plane based on our previous experience

Data that has already been taken during wind tunnel tests and flight tests are just very valuable. This is also why Indonesian R80 program is not really coming from zero again, but it is a continuation of previous N250 program. It will be a perfection of previous N 250 planes. Despite the N250 project has been ended, but many data are still there. R80 (80-100 seats plane) is also a bigger plane than N 250 (50 seats plane)

The same like Indonesian Aerospace plan to develop N 245, it will be based on CN 235.

Similar to HAL RTA

 

[Indos]

I think when it comes to civillian aircraft segment both indian as well as Indonesian manufactures lack innovation. India and indonesia are just copying existing designs to make their respective Regional airliners with Limited capacities, in an increasingly competitive market dominated by major Giants like Boeing, Airbus and some medium ones like Embraer and bombardier it is the need of the hour to innovate on new platforms and introduce critical technologies for our respective aircraft industries to grow and succeed. There's a lot of scope for india and indonesia to cooperate in the aerospace industry. I think Saras and N219 are steps in the right direction for both india and Indonesia respectively because both are products of in house innovation.

For the 5 years to come, we will see. In order to get more money, Indonesian Aerospace is also pursuing MRO and part manufacturing business. Not solely relying on producing planes.

The path that is now taken by Indonesian Aerospace is now doing step by step growth. N 219 program is not likely to revolutionize the company, but I think it will add more production capacity if it is indeed accepted by the market.

For the next 7 years, I think they will likely get the production line busy with current production capacity. Possible demand coming from Army, Air Force, Navy, local governments, and small airlines serving remote route in Papua Island is likely enough with current production line. The N219 amphibious version will also likely to get demand from domestic tourism and oil and gas sector.

After 7 years, they need to be ready to enter more competitive market in international market in order to keep the production line going. The plane should be really competitive and can compete with American plane like Sky courier.

The plan for N219 long term development is to use more composite material for the fuselage to make the plane lighter. Hopefully this can make them able to compete with planes already in the market.

Unlike HAL and TATA that has already got some assurance about hundreds planes order, Indonesian Aerospace on the other hand is still not that certain about their plane order. The business is more like continuing life year by year. CN 235 is already lost from C 295, they still gets some order, but not that large.

The possible real game changer I think will likely be R80 program, but we need to see next administration policy as for current administration, they dont want to finance the program since the program will likely not finish in 2024 where Jokowi administration will end, and our government needs to finance KF21 development as well. 1.5 billion USD development cost for KF21 is something that is not small for any Indonesian administration that has tendency to spend R&D very little. With 1.5 billion cost (our shares in KF21 program), it is already the largest defense program in Indonesian history. More over, there is new capital project as well that needs to speed up since Jokowi cannot run again in the next election (2024).

 

[Hellfire2006]

Saras is extremely important for the IAF to take care of low weight transportation requirements. Will help us replace the likes of the Donears.

Haven't we indegenised the do228 to some quite a large extent already ?

 

[datafreak]

Haven't we indegenised the do228 to some quite a large extent already ?

yeah but it's an old design and needs to go out of production.

 

[Two banks of the River]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1581650670817771525

Status of project as of last year.

Cockpit mockup.

 

[fallstuff]

Multi-passenger light aircraft may get a market, but an executive or corporate version will probably not do well.

 

[Two banks of the River]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1637801727863980032

Work on prototype going on it seems.

 

[Sinnerman108]

How the Saras aircraft will be a game-changer | Analysis​

The latest advancements will strengthen regional passenger connectivity, and add to India’s growth story​

The Saras project will go a long way towards meeting the aspirations of the government that intends to improve rural air connectivity between tier-two and tier-three cities.(Hindustan Times)

Updated on Oct 15, 2019 08:08 PM IST

The first-ever indigenous light passenger aircraft Saras is all set to soar the skies, and will prove to be a game-changer in domestic civil aviation. With the fillip to domestic manufacturing by Prime Minister (PM) Narendra Modi, the 19-seater Saras Mk2 project led by the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR)-National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) is slated to be one of the biggest achievements under the Make In India mission.

In just four more years, Saras Mk2 will obtain final certification. Their induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF) will begin from 2024. It is encouraging that the IAF has already committed to the induction of 15 such aircraft for various applications such as troop movement, VIP transport and supply roles during emergency situations. The in-house design and manufacturing of Saras Mk 2 are now attracting global attention. The reasons are the low acquisition and operating costs, high aircraft performance abilities and the latest generation technologies compared to any contemporary aircraft such as Dornier Do 228NG (Germany), N219 (Indonesia), Beechcraft 1900D (US), LET 410 NG (Czech Republic) and Harbin Y12F (China).

The Saras project will pave the way for the knowledge generation, design and development of the 70-90 seat aircraft for regional passenger connectivity. The design studies of the next generation 70-90-seater regional transport aircraft are on, and the proposal is under examination by the ministry of civil aviation. The Saras MK 2 project will, therefore, be a unique example of co-development, co-production under the Make in India initiative.

It is also attracting a lot of attention with the government having announced the ambitious UDAN scheme to facilitate and stimulate regional air connectivity at affordable fares to offer air travel to those who walk with ‘hawai chappals’, and decided to expedite efforts in the manufacturing of the indigenous light passenger aircraft. The first attempt to design and develop a multi-role transport aircraft began in 1999 after the green signal from then PM AB Vajpayee, and award of the prestigious project to the NAL, a constituent of the CSIR.

The CSIR-NAL, without prior experience, designed and developed the first prototype of Saras. Consequently, the first successful maiden flight took off on May 29, 2004, thus enabling India to join the elite club of five nations to manufacture the light passenger transport aircraft.

After taking over as Union minister of science and technology, I visited NAL in 2015 and saw the manner in which the efforts of our scientific community were being wasted as the once-famous Saras prototype stood in the hangar waiting to be revived. I convened a meeting and exhorted our scientists and engineers to restart work on the project and not feel demoralised by what had happened.

The project was soon back on track. A team of 40 young enthusiastic scientists, under the leadership of JJ Jadhav, director, CSIR-NAL, worked round-the-clock to effect various modifications on their first Saras prototype aircraft (PT1) and to overcome the deficiencies during the earlier flight testing. The modified Saras took to the skies once again in a period of 14 months on January 24, 2018.

The modified version of Saras has completed 23 flights. The Saras project will go a long way towards meeting the aspirations of the government that intends to improve rural air connectivity between tier-two and tier-three cities. There is no doubt that India urgently needs a Light Transport Aircraft like Saras.

An estimated demand for the small civil and military aircraft will be 120 to 160 craft in the next 10 years. There is also export potential. Seeing the capability, the government in June gave ~496 crore to CSIR-NAL make two production-standard aircraft (the 19-seater Saras Mk2) following which technology will be transferred for production by HAL.

NAL has already started design activities related to the 19-seater Saras Mk2 for building the two production standard aircraft and two sets of structural test articles. This is being done with the involvement of private/public sector industries, MSMEs, other research laboratories of CSIR and academic institutions. The most-advanced model-based design, system engineering and product life-cycle tools are being used. Four years down the line, the aircraft is expected to be certified and their induction will begin from 2024. It is encouraging that the IAF has already committed induction of 15 aircraft. This reflects the culture of turning impossible to possible as practised by our PM.

Indian scientists are among the best in the world. My endeavour has been to allow our scientists and engineers to develop innovations that will lead to import substitution. With the development and success of Saras, the Indian scientific community has once again proved its capacity to add to India’s growth story.

Harsh Vardhan is Union minister of health and family welfare, science and technology and earth sciences
Thew views expressed are personal

How the Saras aircraft will be a game-changer | Analysis

The latest advancements will strengthen regional passenger connectivity, and add to India’s growth story

www.hindustantimes.com

Oh look It is SARAS, it is flying .... wow ....

At least , this one is flying,

 

[RealDeal]

Governments have no business getting involves in civilian airline development programs. Its no different than getting involved in manufacturing tvs or diapers or automobiles and we all know how that ends. Both Indian and Indonesian programs will be failures. State owned white elephants cannot match the ingenuity, perseverance and efficiency of private sector. Boeing, Airbus, Embraer etc got where they are over a hundred years, some Indian private company will have to start pretty much from scratch building 2 seater planes until they get better and better, will take no less than 50 years even if they start now.

Transfer all designs of this craft to Tata/Reliance/Adani, ask them to create a SPV with Embraer/Airbus etc and then it has a chance.