India’s attitude points to desire for war: Sartaj Aziz

[MilSpec]

No.
Objective: Drinking whiskey in Lahore gymkhana. Result: Death.
Achievement: Saved Kashmir. Result: Success.

Overall conclusion: Tried a hand at capturing Lahore ended up saving Kashmir instead therefore massive indian victory.


Only in Planet bharat.


Yea he threw all his services to garbage can as soon as he started defaming his own army to get media attention. If it was such a bad army why did he accept being the air chief? Won't get into your head would it.

Now Lets see what ACM Nur Khan Says, he was the ACM during the brilliant operation of PAF during 1965

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

This is from your own Dawn source, hopefully you won't term this one as a liar too..

@sandy_3126 Just a fan of you,,reading this Forum from Long time...couldn't resist to join...you are a great thinker &you have the ability to spray that thought into words..good capability.

Just remember my username here & you would see me banned after some time ...

no need to get banned, stay and contribute.

 

[Kinetic]

What do you have to say about 1965 war?

If you were to ask me this question when I was a young officer, my reply would have been quite different because I fought in that war, saw tactical action and in my perception we did well and beat back the aggressor and won the war. As one matures, learns and has the ability to analyze, one begins to differentiate between myth and reality, of course, with the advantage of the hindsight. 1965 War manifested the shortsightedness and immaturity of our political and military leadership. Pakistan started with ‘Operation Gibraltar’ in Kashmir. We have been made to think it was very bold and imaginative in conception and prepared by a great General. In my opinion it was bold, unimaginative, unpracticable plan. It was not in harmony with prevailing environment in Indian Held Kashmir. It was based on dangerous assumptions and its time frame was unrealistic and quixotic. The plan reflected strategic naivety and immaturity. To top it all the preparation and subsequently the execution displayed lack of professionalism. Since it lacked politico-strategic framework and vision it placed Pakistan in a very precarious position. On its failure, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was launched, which did make military sense since it enjoyed the superiority of strategic orientation. The capture of objective (Akhnur Bridges) would sever the Indian lines of communication in Kashmir and force them to retract. This operation was to suffer a major setback when the advance was halted because of an explainable change of command in the middle of the battle. Indians were so threatened by this move that they attacked with full might across the international border threatening Lahore and Sialkot. Our leaders panicked, ‘Operation Grandslam’ was brought to a grinding halt. Later, a brilliantly conceived Riposte from Khem Karan failed because a correct mix of units was not mustered to achieve a superior relative strength situation at the right time at the right place. We won a lot of battles but lost the war as we failed to attain the political aim of defreezing and the ultimate liberation of the Kashmir. Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, SJ

Cover Story

got the wrong guy last time - edited

.

Good find... let see what replies come..

Ayub Khan thus ruined the national economy by one wrong decision that had taken him several years to build.

With lot of US aid... he forgot that.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Keep on dreaming when your own Childrens are getting murdered by your own Muslim TTP & you can do nothing but pooping on your Pants...Yo Supa Powa Pakistan

murdered by your assets whom we are dispatching to hell.......actually it's you baniyas who dream while your entire northeast is going up in flames

"pooping in pants" --- spoken like a true autistic 12 year old

you dot-heads are on quite a role today

 

[MilSpec]

No.
Objective: Drinking whiskey in Lahore gymkhana. Result: Death.
Achievement: Saved Kashmir. Result: Success.

Overall conclusion: Tried a hand at capturing Lahore ended up saving Kashmir instead therefore massive indian victory.


Only in Planet bharat.


Yea he threw all his services to garbage can as soon as he started defaming his own army to get media attention. If it was such a bad army why did he accept being the air chief? Won't get into your head would it.

Another One for you - By Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin

Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!

Another Liar I suppose?
Grand Slam - A Battle of Lost Opportunities

 

[Maira La]

Lets analyse the Post.

This is whats written by @Horus
...

If its replaced with:
...inflicting mass casualties on Pakistani civilians for voting these Mullahs into office. Islamists need to be told that their little Muslim Reich will actually result in a collective 'kabar' in which they will rot collectively.

How obscure and odd it may look and the member writing the above will have a permanent ban here.

Double standards , Is it? Or is it the mindset???

Smart, but would it be factually correct when you turn Horus' statement upside down? Unless you consider Nawaz Sharif to be a Mullah.

 

[Shot-Caller]

Now Lets see what ACM Nur Khan Says, he was the ACM during the brilliant operation of PAF during 1965

This in short is Nur Khan’s version of 1965 war, which he calls an unnecessary war and says that President Ayub for whom he has the greatest regard should have held his senior generals accountable for the debacle and himself resigned.

This would have held the hands of the adventurers who followed Gen Ayub. Since the 1965 war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and has used since, Ayub as its role model and therefore has continued to fight unwanted wars — the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999, he said.

In each of the subsequent wars we have committed the same mistakes that we committed in 1965.

Air Marshal Khan demanded that a truth commission formed to find out why we failed in all our military adventures. It is not punishment of the failed leadership that should be the aim of the commission but sifting of facts from fiction and laying bare the follies and foibles of the irresponsible leaders in matters with grave implications for the nation. It should also point out the irregularities committed in training and promotions in the defence forces in the past so that it is not repeated in future


Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

This is from your own Dawn source, hopefully you won't term this one as a liar too..


no need to get banned, stay and contribute.

Another retired fellow. Whatever they say about it now doesn't matter. Take a look at this its during the battle.

Doesn't look like the side that's getting the beating.

Another One for you - By Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin

Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!

Another Liar I suppose?

I'm not saying they are liars I'm saying why is it that they all find out the army was making wrong decisions after getting retired. While they don't have a single issue while they enjoy high ranks. Look at this one he was stung by the retirement anxiety pretty soon after retirement.

Kayani feared religious right’s backlash against him: Athar Abbas - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Another One for you - By Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin

Excerpt From the conclusion:
Major (Retd.) Agha Humayun Amin:
Ambition, lust for glory etc are perfectly reasonable aspirations where they are matched with military talent pertaining to operational strategy, low intensity operations, strategic insight or statesmanship! All these were sadly lacking at all levels, except unit level bravery and enthusiasm! Gibraltar failed because of pure and unadulterated military incompetence and Akhtar Malik bears the principle responsibility for Gibraltar! The Grand Slam story was different!It wasnot a case ofbalanced distribution of lack of talent at all levels that resulted in the failure of Grand Slam! The principle reason why Grand Slam failed was delay in initial launching and change of command!

Another Liar I suppose?

desperate for attention much, Ms. Sandy?

you've been spending much of the past hour just digging up articles of Retired officers giving their take on matters which they feel is relevant. And now you're trying to put words in other peoples' mouthes. I've followed Maj. Amin's works closely and I agree with a lot of lessons learnt that he discusses but he also has exaggerated and at times been entirely inaccurate in his predictions but thats a seperate issue. We all can agree that the nuclear deterrant alone will keep india from trying anything stupid in the future but the battles continue. india will continue its troubles and attempts to destabilize us and China & Pakistan will happily tie a noose around your necks at the opportune time..China is already doing a good job with the maoists and those half naked tribals are so poorly equipped.


now give your copy + paste jobs a little rest or you'll run out of material soon

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Pakistan has to prepare for a war, its only a matter of when these self radicalized Hindutvas go on a maha yudh drive. Pakistan's military strategy should focus on inflicting mass casualties on Indian civilians for voting these extremists into office. Hindutvas need to be told that their little Hindu Reich will actually result in a collective 'chita' in which they will burn collectively.

--
dear.. what happened to logic and sanity ?
you advocating mass murder for voting .. WTF..
you guy keep guy who is declared terrorist by UN and preach other .. wow..pakistani logic?
gujrat riots was unfortunate .. was its modis failure yes.. sure.. but calling him extrmist is too far feth logic..
if modi is extremist then those who support him are to same..
indian people.. USA.. UK.. china .. Japan .. list is on..

so how many people you going to kill .. indians... USA who supporting india.. japan.. who pm only 3 people on twitter one is modi.. ...how many ?
other than destruction

i wonder being mod - and one of top pdf veteran you have this view constantly without taking all aspect in consideration..
fact is india cant attack india .. as we are in nation building mode.. we dont want decads os hardwordk get burn in few days ..are we afraied of pak .. no .. we are logical and sane..
will china allow to put nuke on india.. never.. they will be first people to stop you.. will they allow india pak war.. never ervr
why ?
china economy based on export .. any slight war mongaring will hit china in soft spot.. and war.. will bring ultimate instability in world which hit china hard very veyr hard.. their hard earn resver of trllions will become paper only..
--
So please have some sense while talking..
@WebMaster @Chak Bamu @Oscar
what your view as meber on horus commets
what is policy of PDF calling for mass murder ? your view as mod

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

India has to prepare for a war, its only a matter of when these self radicalized muzzies go on a Ghazwa-e-Hind drive. India's military strategy should focus on inflicting mass casualties on muslim civilians for following a pedophile death cult. These followers of pedophile death cult need to be told that their little Porkistan reich will actually result in a collective 'kabr' in which they will rot collectively.

 

[SrNair]

Pakistan should be ready and prepared well india will start war make sure to give them befitting reply.

Like you did in 71 and 65.
Go and play with kids on your own league.Dont try to play bigboys otherwise the dust will stick in your flesh.

 

[Zarrar Alvi]

--
dear.. what happened to logic and sanity ?
you advocating mass murder for voting .. WTF..
you guy keep guy who is declared terrorist by UN and preach other .. wow..pakistani logic?
gujrat riots was unfortunate .. was its modis failure yes.. sure.. but calling him extrmist is too far feth logic..
if modi is extremist then those who support him are to same..
indian people.. USA.. UK.. china .. Japan .. list is on..

so how many people you going to kill .. indians... USA who supporting india.. japan.. who pm only 3 people on twitter one is modi.. ...how many ?
other than destruction

i wonder being mod - and one of top pdf veteran you have this view constantly without taking all aspect in consideration..
fact is india cant attack india .. as we are in nation building mode.. we dont want decads os hardwordk get burn in few days ..are we afraied of pak .. no .. we are logical and sane..
will china allow to put nuke on india.. never.. they will be first people to stop you.. will they allow india pak war.. never ervr
why ?
china economy based on export .. any slight war mongaring will hit china in soft spot.. and war.. will bring ultimate instability in world which hit china hard very veyr hard.. their hard earn resver of trllions will become paper only..
--
So please have some sense while talking..
@web master @Chak Bamu @Oscar
what your view as meber on horus commets
what is policy of PDF calling for mass murder ? your view as mod

dude atleast in our country we dont vote for killer and international hindu terrorist enough said

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Like you did in 71 and 65.
Go and play with kids on your own league.Dont try to play bigboys otherwise the dust will stick in your flesh.

yes....the big boys who took 3 days to secure a city from a few lightly armed unruly kids while the world watched in amazement and awe

 

[Zarrar Alvi]

Like you did in 71 and 65.
Go and play with kids on your own league.Dont try to play bigboys otherwise the dust will stick in your flesh.

slaves cant be rulers if you put honey on a shit it will remain as a shit so plz slaves play with amazaon jungle warriors your slave mate dont try to intimidate your past rulers

 

[MilSpec]

Another retired fellow. Whatever they say about it now doesn't matter. Take a look at this its during the battle.

Doesn't look like the side that's getting the beating.


I'm not saying they are liars I'm saying why is it that they all find out the army was making wrong decisions after getting retired. While they don't have a single issue while they enjoy high ranks. Look at this one he was stung by the retirement anxiety pretty soon after retirement.

Kayani feared religious right’s backlash against him: Athar Abbas - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

It is called advantage of hindsight. Read the sources I have presented, they have detailed outlay of operation gibraltar and grand slam, and reasons for it's failure.

All of the sources I have quoted are pakistani ex military leaders. Read with objectivity rather than blindly towing the national narrative. ACM Asghar Khan and ACM Nur Khan were visionaries of your PAF, Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat was in the tactical arena during combat, additionally you can also read what Col. S.G Mehdi, the SSG commander at that time had to say. Deduce your self the realities of 1965 before singing the same tune as other blind stalwarts here on the forum.

Some of Col. S.G Mehdi wisdom.
1965 War — Some Harsh Realities | Ehtisham Siddiqui

 

[pursuit of happiness]

dude atleast in our country we dont vote for killer and international hindu terrorist enough said

--
vote..
your guy bloacking national capital becuase you guys vote is stolen or you guys never know how to vote
am i wrong?
--
international hindu terrorist
prove it..
--
Hafiz Muhammad Saeed
The United Nations declared Jama'at-ud-Da'wah a terrorist organisation in December 2008 and Hafiz Saeed a terrorist as its leader.
enough said