India's Arjun tank

[vnomad]

And more importantly the date. There is no shortage of articles, reports, editorials criticizing the Arjun prior to 2006.

 

[TexasJohn]

And more importantly the date. There is no shortage of articles, reports, editorials criticizing the Arjun prior to 2006.

I agree. DRDO is a typical example of an institution that needs to be closed down, and it's projects handed over to private industry. That is why the defense forces have such a low confidence in them, and end up "ordering out".

All that said, the Arjun in itself has turned out as a fine beast. But the Army does not want it now. Why?

This tank is capable of out running it's logistical supply lines and does not fit the Armored Corps. fighting doctrine. It's stand off capability with the Lahat missile ( which will decimate a T-90) is impressive, but where do you put it to use?

It's like me taking a Hummer to the store to buy a gallon of milk. Overkill? absolutely! would I fit in the convenience store's parking lot?....errrrr!

 

[vnomad]

I agree. DRDO is a typical example of an institution that needs to be closed down, and it's projects handed over to private industry. That is why the defense forces have such a low confidence in them, and end up "ordering out".

I am not so disappointed in the DRDO. What I'm disappointed in is its swadeshi attitude. The DRDO should have complemented foreign purchases, instead of trying to supplement them. The IGBMP is a top-priority for example because ballistic missiles aren't something that are available in the global arms market. The legal arms market that is. The DRDO has an annual budget of about $700 million while the Chinese spending on R&D judged to be between $5-10 billion. The babu culture is another downer. An IAS officer wouldn't understand why a DRDO engineer or scientist should be paid higher than he is. But, fact remains that DRDO are half of those offered in the private sector. The DRDO needs to be restructured and competely independant of the home ministry's or defence ministry's strings. Privatisation is not the answer IMO. Private players should be allowed to enter the sector independently not by buying out the DRDO.

All that said, the Arjun in itself has turned out as a fine beast. But the Army does not want it now. Why?

That I believe is because the Arjun's reputation precedes its induction. The Arjun has a poor history. Always failing some test or the other. Very publicised failures. Its success of late isn't something that the ordinary Indian knows about, is it? The Arjun was finally inducted because the Arjun was found worthy of service by the Army. The army will make furthur orders. No hurry. There's plenty of time. The 124 tanks will take time to be built.

This tank is capable of out running it's logistical supply lines and does not fit the Armored Corps. fighting doctrine. It's stand off capability with the Lahat missile ( which will decimate a T-90) is impressive, but where do you put it to use?

The Arjun is not a misfit in the army's doctrine. The Armored Corps is deluding themselves if they think they are a fast hard hitting forces. You've only to see the time taking to mobilise. The Arjun isn't a slow lumbering giant as its touted to be. Its capable of blending in any role the army may want to use it in.

It's like me taking a Hummer to the store to buy a gallon of milk. Overkill? absolutely! would I fit in the convenience store's parking lot?....errrrr!

If you were gived a choice between a squadron of M1A2s against four squadrons of T-90s who'd you put your shirt on? Mine's on the Abrams. Now buying four squadrons of Abrams would be an overkill.

The Arjun can be inducted in smaller numbers, but it'll be lethal nonetheless. Sort of like a knuckleduster on a fist.

 

[InsightDubai]

would have been better to to just buy the German leopard a6 with warranty, rather than to copy one. German A6 would still be cheaper than arjun.

 

[sigatoka]

If you were gived a choice between a squadron of M1A2s against four squadrons of T-90s who'd you put your shirt on? Mine's on the Abrams. Now buying four squadrons of Abrams would be an overkill.

This is quite a claim, abraham performance against ill maintained T-72's in the gulf war backed by overwhelming airsupport shouldn't be used as an example of Abraham performance against T-90's. Indeed an Abraham may be superior to the T-90 but that is a very statement than to say that it could successfully take on T-90's outnumbered 4-1. There are no real world examples of this, nor any impartial computer simulations of the above scenario. The reason why this can not be logical is because these two tanks have around the same engagement range, now when they first fire assuming all their shells hit the targets every Abraham is hit four times while only 1/4 of the T-90's will be hit. I mean even if the Abraham isnt destroyed by four strikes while one T-90 is destroyed, in the second engagement, the three remaining T-90's would hit the Abraham while the Abraham would only get off a single shot destroying one T-90. The Abraham has now been hit 7 times, and has destroyed 2 T-90's with another 2 left. An Abrahram after being hit 7 times by a T-90 and not being disabled or destroyed is quite unbelievable.

My point is this, odds of 4-1 are very very lopsided because the T-90 side is getting off a lot more shells than they are receiving and to say that the Abrahams would cruise through is bordering on the ludicrous.

 

[vnomad]

Indeed an Abraham may be superior to the T-90 but that is a very statement than to say that it could successfully take on T-90's outnumbered 4-1. The reason why this can not be logical is because these two tanks have around the same engagement range, now when they first fire assuming all their shells hit the targets every Abraham is hit four times while only 1/4 of the T-90's will be hit. I mean even if the Abraham isnt destroyed by four strikes while one T-90 is destroyed, in the second engagement, the three remaining T-90's would hit the Abraham while the Abraham would only get off a single shot destroying one T-90. The Abraham has now been hit 7 times, and has destroyed 2 T-90's with another 2 left. An Abrahram after being hit 7 times by a T-90 and not being disabled or destroyed is quite unbelievable.

The best APFDS cannot pierce the M1A2's depleted uranium armor in one shot. Four shots would take it out but then all four aren't landing on the same part of the tank. And I don't believe the T-90s will be able to hit the Abrams 4:1. The Abrams crew will have a much much superior situational awareness. Also its better crew comfort will translate into better performance in battle. Its not a simple game of who gets the first shot off.

 

[Munir]

The best APFDS cannot pierce the M1A2's depleted uranium armor in one shot. Four shots would take it out but then all four are not going land on the same section of the tank. And I don't believe the T-90s will be able to hit the Abrams 4:1. The Abrams crew will have a much much superior situational awareness. Also its better crew comfort will translate into better performance in battle. Its not a simple game of who gets the first shot off. The T-72 did hit the Abrams during the gulf wars but the shells simply bounced off. The Abrams has only been hit once and that was by another Abrams and even that didn't destroy it, just crippled it.

There you are hit with one shot... Do you think that you can continue fighting like you aren't hit? Within 6 seconds another hit will come. And what do you think about the uranium particles? I do not believe that there will be no hole after a hit. Any source?

Let me put ut simple. The German lost war in Belgium even with superior tiger and king tiger tanks. They lost it to a smaller, cheaper and simpler tank. If you want to compare tanks to eachother then just compare tanks and not the environment around... There would be not huge difference. And T72 (not upgraded) comparing with latest US tank? Sounds silly to me.

And you do remember the pictures of abraham burning after been hit with a simple RPG? Knowing tha fact that terrorist or rebels get better an better options there is no tank safe. Israel had to retreat even with super tanks called Merkava. Does that mean that it makes bad tanks? I don't think so. It depends on environment...


p.s. This is non political. US, Israel, India or Pakistan... Doesn't matter. Countries are the same. People are the same.

p.s.2 Arjun was marked as super tank. Other say it is junk. It is probably a nice tank but not suited for the dessert warfare like AK. Speed an firepower... Less protection. Does that mean Arjun is bad? I think it would do super in hilly or European arena...

 

[Keysersoze]

There you are hit with one shot... Do you think that you can continue fighting like you aren't hit? Within 6 seconds another hit will come. And what do you think about the uranium particles? I do not believe that there will be no hole after a hit. Any source?

Let me put ut simple. The German lost war in Belgium even with superior tiger and king tiger tanks. They lost it to a smaller, cheaper and simpler tank. If you want to compare tanks to eachother then just compare tanks and not the environment around... There would be not huge difference. And T72 (not upgraded) comparing with latest US tank? Sounds silly to me.

And you do remember the pictures of abraham burning after been hit with a simple RPG? Knowing tha fact that terrorist or rebels get better an better options there is no tank safe. Israel had to retreat even with super tanks called Merkava. Does that mean that it makes bad tanks? I don't think so. It depends on environment...


p.s. This is non political. US, Israel, India or Pakistan... Doesn't matter. Countries are the same. People are the same.

p.s.2 Arjun was marked as super tank. Other say it is junk. It is probably a nice tank but not suited for the dessert warfare like AK. Speed an firepower... Less protection. Does that mean Arjun is bad? I think it would do super in hilly or European arena...

Ok I have been waiting most of the day to answer this one because it is a really flawed post.

Firstly it is....possibly to continue after being hit by a round if it does not penetrate...as was proved in GW1.
Also if the tank crew is worth their salt they would be doing something to avoid the second shot.
Uranium particles???????????? You are joking right? I would answer that with NBC and if they don't have that then maybe the crew will die (from radiation poisoning) after the war has been won.

Ok now to a historical error. Yes the Germans lost (I assume you are either refering to the Ardennes or Normandy) but it was due to the lack of air cover and logistics (amongst other reasons) The Tiger was capable of stopping entire advances with a few units (Villiers bocage) So quality of armour makes a HUGE difference to combat.

There are inherent weaknesses with even the most advanced tanks that can be exploited. However these can be overcome (with either modifications such as the TUSK upgrade for the M1 or using the tank correctly Merkava)

Ok finally lets clear up one misconception. The M1's development was affected by a major event. The Yom Kippur war. M1's Challenger 1's and 2's have primarily been used in the desert. So to suggest a tank like the Arjun would not be of any use in a desert environ is somewhat spurious. (the only reason you could argue that point is if you refer to the technical problems)

The AK will do really well against tanks of a similar heritage (Russian T-series or Chinese variants) But against a modern advanced MBT it will face problems.

 

[vnomad]

There you are hit with one shot... Do you think that you can continue fighting like you aren't hit?

Absolutely. What's the point of having superior armor if one shot cripples you?

Within 6 seconds another hit will come.

No problem unless it hits the same place where the previous shell hit it. And even then my money's on the Abrams.

And what do you think about the uranium particles?

Cancer rates will increase in the inhabitants of the area? How does it affect the battle. The NBC kit on the M1A2 will protect the crew.

I do not believe that there will be no hole after a hit. Any source?

The best Russian FSAPDS(Fin Stabilised Armor Piercing Discarded Sabot) cannot make a hole in the Abrams armor. The depleted uranium armor isn't something you find on every tank.

And T72 (not upgraded) comparing with latest US tank? Sounds silly to me.

I was talking about the T-90.

And you do remember the pictures of abraham burning after been hit with a simple RPG?

No I haven't seen it. Perhaps you'd care to post it.

Israel had to retreat even with super tanks called Merkava. Does that mean that it makes bad tanks? I don't think so. It depends on environment...

We're not talking about urban anti-insurgency operations. We're talking about a full-fledged tank battle. The Merkava's frontal arc has never been pierced incidently. And tank battles will in 90% cases be frontal.

p.s. This is non political. US, Israel, India or Pakistan... Doesn't matter. Countries are the same. People are the same.

I have no idea what you're getting at.

Arjun was marked as super tank. Other say it is junk. It is probably a nice tank but not suited for the dessert warfare like AK.

I'd like to point out two things. First, in the Thar desert the tanks ground pressure is what matters. The Arjun's ground pressure is lower than that of the T-90. In the low hull position its silhoutte is NOT significantly more visible compared to the T-series. Second, the entire Indo-Pak border isn't a part of the Thar desert (read Punjab and lower J&K).

 

[Munir]

It is a waste of time to talk to posters like this. Somehow they just are not realistic... The forum might go for quatity but it is totally not up to any level of quality.

It depends where you have been hit. But if you have been in a modern tank then you would know that there is not much room where the bullet can go in and out without causing serious damage... And if you have a hole then you can have multiple NBC ideas but it surely will not help... Wait... I am not here to treat stupid Indians... Dream on.

 

[Bull]

It is a waste of time to talk to posters like this. Somehow they just are not realistic... The forum might go for quatity but it is totally not up to any level of quality.

It depends where you have been hit. But if you have been in a modern tank then you would know that there is not much room where the bullet can go in and out without causing serious damage... And if you have a hole then you can have multiple NBC ideas but it surely will not help... Wait... I am not here to treat stupid Indians... Dream on.

Munir nobody abused you for you to use such terms.I guesss this forum gives you the right to avoid posts which you dont like or else you can use the ignore button,it works fine trust me.Just a piece of advice.

A guy who wasnt serious wouldnt have read thru your entire post,segregated it and then commented on it.

Even if you have more knowldge than an average poster here in PFF all neednt know that.Many are new posters here.

 

[Keysersoze]

It is a waste of time to talk to posters like this. Somehow they just are not realistic... The forum might go for quatity but it is totally not up to any level of quality.

It depends where you have been hit. But if you have been in a modern tank then you would know that there is not much room where the bullet can go in and out without causing serious damage... And if you have a hole then you can have multiple NBC ideas but it surely will not help... Wait... I am not here to treat stupid Indians... Dream on.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I am not a "stupid Indian" and somehow I managed to find the same flaws with your post. Would you like the exact causes for every single Abrams tank disabled or destroyed? I can put it here for you if you want?

As for your comments regarding quality. I suggest you raise it by arguing your point rather than calling people names.

 

[vnomad]

It depends where you have been hit.

Practically every tank battle will be frontal. And the frontal arc is where the tank's armor is the strongest.

But if you have been in a modern tank then you would know that there is not much room where the bullet can go in and out without causing serious damage... And if you have a hole then you can have multiple NBC ideas but it surely will not help...

Bullet? All I said was the T-90's shell cannot penetrate the Abrams armor. I didn't say it would make a hole and the M1 would live to see another day. There will be no hole.

 

[Keysersoze]

Practically every tank battle will be frontal. And the frontal arc is where the tank's armor is the strongest.


Bullet? All I said was the T-90's shell cannot penetrate the Abrams armor. I didn't say it would make a hole and the M1 would live to see another day. There will be no hole.

In fact most of the armour penetrations were from OTHER M1's (DU rounds) and all non-DU penetration were on the flank of the tanks.

 

[joey]

Munir > 1> Tank with REAL tanker aka zraver. if you want to validate your points with physics.Arjun has LESS ground pressure than T90.
2> Still interested? go to tanknet forums and ask questions,if you differ from what zraver says.
Bull, THAT 6 ROAD POS T72 IS NOT ARJUN, ARJUN MKII IS NOT TANK EX BUT ITS ARJUN WITH ERA REMOVED FROM non-CRITICAL PART AND NERA PUT.

afaik, THERE ARE 124+28(LSP) MK1 version arjun in production and MANY in service.

here is 5 arjuns in service.there are QUITE lot in service as all 124 are set to be finished delivery within this year, production started around 2003-04.



as usual more orders will be there as India has HUGE tank fleet to change.