India’s Aircraft Carriers: A Giant Waste of Time?

[Hellfire]

How about PN AIP sub send to bottom of sea? Sending an Aircraft carrier against a foe so near you with enemy submarine base near it is simply a suicide move.

What are you trying to say? And please understand that there is always something called SOSUS. Go figure out the probability of a submarine moving out from PN harbours and not being tracked

 

[AyanRay]

Against China, forget about it. The PLAN vastly out numbers the IN in quantity and has a quality edge as well. They currently field more frigates than the IN has corvettes, frigates and destroyers put together....

You forgot that PLANs main adversary is not the IN but the US and Japanese Navy. The only way PLAN can reach the Indian Ocean is through the mallaca strait and our unsinkable aircraft carrier is situated right next it. And PLAN won't even think of doing such a misadventure. They won't expose there coastline to American and Japanese warship just to defeat IN in Indian Ocean.

 

[Mustang06]

I've already lost few brain cells but who cares I'll be drunk tomorrow. Merry Christmas and enjoy another quality thread.

Where is the source URL?




Very astute observation of the writer who is unable to differentiate between his elbow and the rear! 45 KUBs for INS Vikramaditya right now!

@randomradio @Mustang06 You will enjoy this one



The writer absolutely has no clue




Cool, if you say so








PAF would be waiting for a CBG of IN to come, instead of defending/undertaking offensive strikes of it's own to try and maintain control of own airspace



Wow!

India will not fight China, Pakistan has nukes. Let's all disband our armed forces

Er, .... ooops! I forgot, employment has to be created



Access denial barrier?


@Joe Shearer @punit @Nilgiri @jbgt90 @nair @Viny @SrNair @Dash @Sam. @banvanaxl @Surya 1 @SpArK @MilSpec

Tagging you guys for a smile and a quite laugh



4 would be ideal (and is aimed for), no doubt.




Which, the author, has clearly failed to understand.



Don't encourage trolling/baiting by responding. Ignore and move on.

 

[punit]

I am sorry, its no more 1980s where spy satellite with clear tracking and real time monitoring is not available. I am sure Chinese will back PN in times of war with India with such info.

http://english.cas.cn/newsroom/news/201801/t20180129_189651.shtml

China to Launch 60 Jilin-1 Video Satellites by 2020

US satellite snaps China's first aircraft carrier at sea
Photograph of 300-metre ship captured during trials in Yellow Sea, renewing concern over China's widening naval reach


Agencies

Thu 15 Dec 2011 12.39 GMTFirst published on Thu 15 Dec 2011 12.39 GMT

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US satellite company DigitalGlobe has captured this image of the refitted former Soviet carrier as it underwent five days of trials in the Yellow Sea. Photograph: Reuters
A US satellite company says it has taken a photograph of China's first aircraft carrier during trials in the Yellow Sea.

It is believed to be the first time the 300-metre ship, a refitted former Soviet carrier, has been photographed at sea since it was launched in August.

DigitalGlobe said one of its satellites took the picture on 8 December and an analyst at the firm spotted the ship this week while searching through images.

Stephen Wood, director of DigitalGlobe's analysis centre, said he was confident the ship was the Chinese carrier because of the location and date of the image. The carrier has generated intense international interest because of what it might portend about China's intentions as a military power.

The former Soviet Union started building the carrier, which it called the Varyag, but never finished it. When the USSR collapsed, the ship ended up in Ukraine.

China bought the ship from Ukraine in 1998 and spent years refurbishing it. It had no engines, weapons or navigation systems when China acquired it. It has said the ship is intended for research and training, which has led to speculation that it plans to build copies.

China initially said little about its plans for the vessel but has been more open in recent years, said Bonnie S Glaser, a China expert at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies.

"It wasn't until the Chinese actually announced they were sending it out on a trial run they admitted, 'Yes, we are actually launching a carrier,'" she said. China announced two sea trials, which took place this year, she added.

Michael Schiffer, the US deputy assistant defence secretary for east Asia, said in August that the vessel could become operationally available by the end of next year, but without aircraft. "It will take a number of additional years for an air group to achieve the sort of minimal level of combat capability aboard the carrier that will be necessary for them to start to operate from the carrier," he said.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chin...oups-real-time-position-every-30-mins.479064/

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/oth-b.htm

China may have deployed as many as three Over-the-Horizon (OTH) sky-wave radar systems by 2005. China aspires to use to target aircraft carriers. These systems could be used in an early warning capacity. China also may have deployed at least one surface-wave OTHR.



Your statement of satellite not able to located aircraft carrier is based on 80s where Soviet not able to locate US CVBG...

We are now in year 2018.. Technology improves, nothing is stagnant.



Let India start sea trial for Vikrant first before all the bragging comes later.

So ur defence is based on what china will do. Good.

.seems Nothing has changed since 1971
Read the part about promised chinese suport..

How about PN AIP sub send to bottom of sea? Sending an Aircraft carrier against a foe so near you with enemy submarine base near it is simply a suicide move.

So chinese intend to keep their carrier near their own shore ?

 

[Beast]

So chinese intend to keep their carrier near their own shore ?

Chinese carrier is used for ocean going. It is to project power against far distance. All superpower fought proxy war. They don't engage each other since all superpower has nuclear power that can mutual destroy each other. They encourage smaller partner countries to threaten foe trade or humiliate their interest or weaken their economy.

If superpower failed to stand up against such provocation will weaken their stance in international scene or have their overseas trade affected. That is where your CVBG comes in handy to slap some small boy faces hard from far to tell them who is the boss. It is also a way to attract more allies that will strengthen your position in international scenes.

From the pattern, only rich superpower countries can have true power projection CVBG group due to the enormous cost associated and need to gain global influenced due to many Interest abroad.

I can tell you. If China has war with Japan or Vietnam. China carrier will park in well defend harbour. Since the approximity is so near. Air power will be ready available with tanker to give further projection. There are large number of air asset in hand and carrier is not needed to risk it.

Same as Pakistan and India having a war in future. I am sure IN will park their carrier in harbour with ample protection rather than risk it against enemy air or underwater threat given the close approximity. Where PN sub can re- arm, refuel easily given they do not need travel long distance for operation.

 

[S.Y.A]

It is a question of doctrine.

With a CBVG with 60-70 fighters onboard, India can divert a lot of Pakistani resources on it's far west near the Gulf. By forcing Pakistan to divert so many forces to deal with the carrier group, India will have a much easier time fighting the Pakistanis on the Western border.

India is neither right or wrong to go with carriers. A bit like the UK RN wanted 2 large carriers so was forced to halve it's purchase of destroyers and frigates to pay for them.

Karachi already has masroor airbase, with 4 squadrons of ~16 fighters each placed there, plus 3-4 awacs as well. another squadron of F-16s at hyderabad. gwadar adn ormara's facilities are being expanded as well. PN itself has some air assets that are used for maritime patrol, it doesnt rely solely on the PAF.

The army garrison at malir has its own air defence systems, navy has its own equipment, and the paf has SAMs as well. also, not all of the 60-70 aircraft on board the carriers will be able to operate at once. we also have air based, land based, ship based, small crafts based anti ship missiles.

so the thing is, if we cant get to their carriers easily, their naval force will not be able to get to us easily as well. they may overwhelm us in the long run, but they will be dealt a great deal of damage in the process as well. it will come down to IN's appetite for loss, will they be ready to risk ships worth billions of $ to get what the IAF may be able to do on its own?

So ur defence is based on what china will do. Good.

.seems Nothing has changed since 1971
Read the part about promised chinese suport..

no one is saying that china will jump in the war. they will just help us by sharing intel. that is it.

 

[punit]

Karachi already has masroor airbase, with 4 squadrons of ~16 fighters each placed there, plus 3-4 awacs as well. another squadron of F-16s at hyderabad. gwadar adn ormara's facilities are being expanded as well. PN itself has some air assets that are used for maritime patrol, it doesnt rely solely on the PAF.

The army garrison at malir has its own air defence systems, navy has its own equipment, and the paf has SAMs as well. also, not all of the 60-70 aircraft on board the carriers will be able to operate at once. we also have air based, land based, ship based, small crafts based anti ship missiles.

so the thing is, if we cant get to their carriers easily, their naval force will not be able to get to us easily as well. they may overwhelm us in the long run, but they will be dealt a great deal of damage in the process as well. it will come down to IN's appetite for loss, will they be ready to risk ships worth billions of $ to get what the IAF may be able to do on its own?


no one is saying that china will jump in the war. they will just help us by sharing intel. that is it.

if u are so sure ! what can i say !

Chinese carrier is used for ocean going. It is to project power against far distance. All superpower fought proxy war. They don't engage each other since all superpower has nuclear power that can mutual destroy each other. They encourage smaller partner countries to threaten foe trade or humiliate their interest or weaken their economy.

If superpower failed to stand up against such provocation will weaken their stance in international scene or have their overseas trade affected. That is where your CVBG comes in handy to slap some small boy faces hard from far to tell them who is the boss. It is also a way to attract more allies that will strengthen your position in international scenes.

From the pattern, only rich superpower countries can have true power projection CVBG group due to the enormous cost associated and need to gain global influenced due to many Interest abroad.

I can tell you. If China has war with Japan or Vietnam. China carrier will park in well defend harbour. Since the approximity is so near. Air power will be ready available with tanker to give further projection. There are large number of air asset in hand and carrier is not needed to risk it.

Same as Pakistan and India having a war in future. I am sure IN will park their carrier in harbour with ample protection rather than risk it against enemy air or underwater threat given the close approximity. Where PN sub can re- arm, refuel easily given they do not need travel long distance for operation.

Submarines are not some invincible magic bullets! will Pakistan risk its submarines ? How many submarines they can expend ?

 

[randomradio]

Very astute observation of the writer who is unable to differentiate between his elbow and the rear! 45 KUBs for INS Vikramaditya right now!

@randomradio @Mustang06 You will enjoy this one

Western writers have a very low opinion about Russian aircraft in general.

Here the writer has decided the availability of the Mig-29 is only 54%.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201812041070349589-indian-navy-resolves-service-issue-mig29/
However, recent efforts made by the two countries have improved serviceability to around 70%.

 

[Nilgiri]

Access denial barrier?

This message has been brought to you courtesy of the ministry of silly walks.

Against China, forget about it. The PLAN vastly out numbers the IN in quantity and has a quality edge as well. They currently field more frigates than the IN has corvettes, frigates and destroyers put together....

But how do they break past (in sufficient number) the (foreign controlled) island chain to their direct east (i.e no clear route to open ocean) and negotiate past all the chokepoints of the East Indies/IndoChina and then try to project any reasonable power (sustainably, esp given the effective logistic chain lengths) into where it matters....where such goodies like poseidons and dedicated sat-links (and they are just the vanguard) are just dieing to acquaint with them?

 

[waz]

But how do they break past (in sufficient number) the (foreign controlled) island chain to their direct east (i.e no clear route to open ocean) and negotiate past all the chokepoints of the East Indies/IndoChina and then try to project any reasonable power (sustainably, esp given the effective logistic chain lengths) into where it matters....where such goodies like poseidons and dedicated sat-links (and they are just the vanguard) are just dieing to acquaint with them?

The number of ships is extraordinary and they will pretty much break through past the chokepoints, especially considering China'a air power is being built around this very scenario. Logistics can prove to be a problem but that is something that is being worked on via supply ships (the recent The Type 901) is an example of this, and friendly ports.
As for the USN that's a different ball game all together, the article is about the IN.

 

[Nilgiri]

The number of ships is extraordinary and they will pretty much break through past the chokepoints, especially considering China'a air power is being built around this very scenario. Logistics can prove to be a problem but that is something that is being worked on via supply ships (the recent The Type 901) is an example of this, and friendly ports.
As for the USN that's a different ball game all together, the article is about the IN.

Well whats the maximum number of ships China has actually projected (in peacetime) anywhere past the eastern island chain (where much higher level intel sharing is already an issue)...much less into the Indian ocean (past the chokepoints controlled by not so friendly countries...who also have their contribution in intel sharing with broader networks)...esp with all the requisite support and logistics needed?

A lot of this is stuff you only figure out after you have done it at some level to begin with. Then comes the actual war modelling when things don't go to plan compared to the peacetime exercise. This is all very much like the real time logistics that do not favour China at all in the Tibetan plateau+Himalayan mountain passes in the way w.r.t South Asia.

@jhungary @gambit @Indos @AUSTERLITZ @Vergennes your thoughts?

 

[waz]

You forgot that PLANs main adversary is not the IN but the US and Japanese Navy. The only way PLAN can reach the Indian Ocean is through the mallaca strait and our unsinkable aircraft carrier is situated right next it. And PLAN won't even think of doing such a misadventure. They won't expose there coastline to American and Japanese warship just to defeat IN in Indian Ocean.

The Japanese are turning into a defensive force for a whole host of reasons, one being they don't have the manpower to fight an offensive war, and certainly won't do in the future, but your posts points to a joint offensive with the USN, where they can be a serious threat. An alliance such as this will prove victorious but take grave losses, but could also go nuclear.

 

[pakdefender]

Well it's a Vedic aircraft carrier so it can turn back time itself!

 

[waz]

Well whats the maximum number of ships China has actually projected (in peacetime) anywhere past the eastern island chain (where much higher level intel sharing is already an issue)...much less into the Indian ocean (past the chokepoints controlled by not so friendly countries...who also have their contribution in intel sharing with broader networks)...esp with all the requisite support and logistics needed?

A lot of this is stuff you only figure out after you have done it at some level to begin with. Then comes the actual war modelling when things don't go to plan compared to the peacetime exercise. This is all very much like the real time logistics that do not favour China at all in the Tibetan plateau+Himalayan mountain passes in the way w.r.t South Asia.

@jhungary @gambit @Indos @AUSTERLITZ @Vergennes your thoughts?

I don't know that mate, and I've seen discussions on here about it. I mean a lot of his is speculative like you allude to, and exercises only give a snapshot of events that could unfold.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

i think we need to see more of these sitting ducks in the indian navy, takes huge huge resources to make and keep em floating, Huge bulls eye in war time. i'd like to see india invest in 5 or 6 of these sitting ducks that surely will take their capital away from more sensible and dangerous investments.