Indians arrested for Facebook post on Mumbai shutdown

[Jackdaws]

Public opinion shouldn't be the barometer to judge ANY case. That's not what I was suggesting. vsdoc was making up a piece of fiction that the muslim community was silently happy for this, after he and KS tried to pretend that the girls were arrested for their own safety by the saviours in the Mumbai police. I was pointing out that neither muslims nor anyone else are happy about the arrest, in fact it is amply clear that most Indians are enraged.

I wasn't saying that the case should be decided on that basis. Just pointing out that his idea of "unvarnished truth" is an unvarnished justificationism.

Silently happy - what rubbish! When people are happy - they are vocal. The silent happy minority are as mythical as Musharaf's silent majority.

 

[janon]

Silently happy - what rubbish! When people are happy - they are vocal. The silent happy minority are as mythical as Musharaf's silent majority.

Yep - unfortunately some people can spout any kind of BS when it suits their political party or religious ideology, and then claim it to be the "unvarnished truth".

If this was a hindu arrested for a similar remark after some muslim leader's death, I wonder what he would have said. Would hhe still come here and say freedom of speech isn't absolute, as if that means freedom of speech doesn't exist at all? No, he would be lambasting the muslim community.

Now when Shiv sena has created such an atmosphere of fear in his state, he chooses to blame the victims, not the perpetrators. If the sainiks are a bunch of thugs who will go on a rampage for something as trivial as this, they are the ones who should be preventively arrested.

 

[Bang Galore]

Public opinion shouldn't be the barometer to judge ANY case. That's not what I was suggesting.

I didn't think for a moment that is what you were suggesting. I just used that line to make a larger point since many posters earlier were taking a somewhat similar tack of public sentiment being inflamed & therefore some action having to be taken. I was suggesting that your argument was sound on principles and wasn't dependent on what the "majority" might think. I would like to believe that your position & mine are not dependent on which way the wind is blowing at a particular moment & would have remained the same even if the so-called majority did not share our opinion. We are a constitutional democracy, not a fickle mobocracy where any & all groups of nutters can temporarily rustle up the numbers & suggest that the mob strength is indicative of the correctness of their behaviour.

 

[Sashan]

Nobody would have given two hoots had the same thing happened two days after. That day was a very sensitive day and even a small rrumour could have wreaked havoc on Mumbai and the community that would hav suffered the most would be muslims.

Hope the girl is released without any charges and this thing is closed.



Sadly article 66A revoked that right.

True for common people and that is illegal but not for Karunanidhi types who will say anything against Ram and no one will do a squat about it.

 

[Sashan]

Anna you are not understanding the situation - Ok read the following and tell me what you would if you were the Police commissioner of Mumbai.

- The Sainiks think Bal Thackeray as their God. He says die, they die..he says kill, they kill.

- there were about 2.5 million Sainiks on the roads on that day and the police were literally walking on egg shells not knowing when the the grief of the sainiks would burst out as rage and rioting.

- The relationship between Muslims (a majority) and Shiv Sena especially in the context of 92,93 is very well known. Rumours are there that after Azad Maidan Shiv sena was ready to retaliate at the grass roots level, but was ordered down by Balasaheb after the police commissioner talked to him.

- this girl was a Muslim

- in this age of cell phones and what not, one small rumour that muslims were celebrating Balasaheb's death has the potential to spread like wildfire, thus putting the lives of thousands - again muslims - in danger.

- it would not have been a riot, it would have been a carnage.

Now tell me in this situation what would you do ? Tell me honestly from the perspective of a police commissioner in a city of India and not as an American who knows the first amendment by-heart. I cant argue with ABCDs who have not been in India.. but you should be knowing these things. Things roll differently here. Was not TN completely shut down and dozens killed in riots ensuing after Dr.MGR died ? Idealism is good, but a good dose of pragmatism is always better.

KS - I do understand the ground situation. I mentioned here in my previous post that little pragmatism would have helped(in fact, I would have given a smack in her head if it was my daughter). But she is perfectly right in posting what she posted. Criticizing a political leader is perfectly right. There are multiple ways cops can protect her if they wanted. Post few cops in front of her house. Else move her outside of the city for a few days. Arresting is not the way to protect her and I feel this exposed her much more.

And another argument I do not get it - the timing was not right.

So one can criticize the political leaders when the situation is right and perfectly legal and police won't arrest her and not when the situation is not right?

The situation is unprecedented - I agree. But if the police is not upto the challenge and protect a girl, f*** them.

I have not expressed my thoughts yet on Bal Thackerey and Shiv Sena but my argument is about the constitutional rights and how the police f**** them up.

 

[vsdoc]

Bunch of Ivory Tower snobs.

Having said my piece, am out of here.

There is an India beyond Face friggin Book and Twitter friggin Shitter.

 

[janon]

\
I have not expressed my thoughts yet on Bal Thackerey and Shiv Sena but my argument is about the constitutional rights and how the police f**** them up.

Actually that's one of the chilling effects that this arrest has created. People are suddenly afraid to express their thoughts on shiv sena or bal thakerey. I'm not pointing at you in particular - but the sad fact I see is that most people on the net and social media are now referring to this euphemistically, and not daring to speak their minds openly. This kind of killing the voice and spirit of the people is what such arrests will do, and which is why we should protest against it unless we want to become dumb sheep like the people of many other countries, where a political party decides whats good for people, what people can think, say etc.

Bunch of Ivory Tower snobs.

Having said my piece, am out of here.

There is an India beyond Face friggin Book and Twitter ******** Shitter.

Yes, there is. And that India has also openly come out on the side of righteousness and freedom. Your own imagined India that is silently happy at her arrest is nowhere to be found, it is mythical. Go watch the reaction on the print or electronic media, or on the streets. THe person who filed the complaint is now being disowned even by the sena.

So yes, the real India has spoken, and you are free to walk away if you don't like what you hear. But that is the real India for you, and many of us will struggle to ensure that it stays that way, without making pathetic excuses for criminal acts of intimidation and false arrests.

No amount of name calling (snobs? really? For standing up for basic rights?) will change the fact.

 

[Sashan]

Actually that's one of the chilling effects that this arrest has created. People are suddenly afraid to express their thoughts on shiv sena or bal thakerey. I'm not pointing at you in particular - but the sad fact I see is that most people on the net and social media are now referring to this euphemistically, and not daring to speak their minds openly. This kind of killing the voice and spirit of the people is what such arrests will do, and which is why we should protest against it unless we want to become dumb sheep like the people of many other countries, where a political party decides whats good for people, what people can think, say etc.

Mate - I am not afraid about saying anything about Thackerey or Sena. Neither they can do a squat if I say something. But as I said before in one of my posts yesterday here in this thread, I want to keep the discussions about him out of this thread else it will convolute the whole discussions.

But I do agree it will kill the voice and spirit of the people.

But one stark reality stands out here. The people who argue that the facebook and the social media gave rise to the proper expression of opinions and which is taking on the left/psuedosecularist dominated print media and what led to a term called internet hindus and which they proudly wear today call their own brethren who argue for the right of expression in the social media - arm chair civil rightists etc.

 

[janon]

But one stark reality stands out here. The people who argue that the facebook and the social media gave rise to the proper expression of opinions and which is taking on the left/psuedosecularist dominated print media and what led to a term called internet hindus and which they proudly wear today call their own brethren who argue for the right of expression in the social media - arm chair civil rightists etc.

Here is the difference though - did anybody in the media or left or center of politics call for the arrest of the so called "internet hindus"? If there is such a thing as "internet hindu" as they allege, those "internet hindus" have every right to do what they do. So do the leftists or secularists or anyone else, we all have a right to speak our minds.

Unfortunately in India that freedom is a lot less than in western democracies, but that freedom does exist. Just because freedom of speech comes with caveats doesn't mean that is doesn't come at all.

No so called "internet hindu" has been arrested, right? And they shouldn't be. Neither should an internet muslim or a proper thinking girl like this one.

 

[vsdoc]

Don't be a twit man. Like the twit who started it all.

What do you mean by saying "people like him live and die in the thousands everyday"?

Is that respectful? Innocent?

Was Balasaheb anybody?

Do "anybodys" have 2 million people coming on to the streets when they pass away?

Kya bakwaas kar rahe ho yaar tum jhola wadi?

 

[janon]

Don't be a twit man. Like the twit who started it all.

What do you mean by saying "people like him live and die in the thousands everyday"?

Is that respectful? Innocent?

Was Balasaheb anybody?

Do "anybodys" have 2 million people coming on to the streets when they pas away?

Kya bakwaas kar rahe ho yaar tum jhola wadi?

People cannot be arrested for saying bakwaas, even if it is bakwaas. You may disagree with her and tell her she is wrong, you can say the exact words you said now - that's your freedom. But you cannot put her in jail, no amount of excuses will justify that criminal act.

 

[vsdoc]

People cannot be arrested for saying bakwaas, even if it is bakwaas. You may disagree with her and tell her she is wrong, you can say the exact words you said now - that's your freedom. But you cannot put her in jail, no amount of excuses will justify that criminal act.

The police can and did put her in jail.

Fined her.

And let her off.

She saw the error of her ways and apologized.

Hopefully she would have better sense moving forward.

Am sure a few well placed smacks from her parents in the privacy of their home would have contributed as well.

Alls well that ends well.

No one died.

 

[janon]

The police can and did put her in jail.

Fined her.

And let her off.

She saw the error of her ways and apologized.

Hopefully she would have better sense moving forward.

Am sure a few well placed smacks from her parents in the privacy of their home would have contributed as well.

Alls well that ends well.

No one died.

It hasn't ended yet. The DGP has launched an investigation into why she was arrested, and the policemen who did it will be the ones to be fined. Its the policemen who realized that they cant do such things - you haven't realized it yet.

The girls weren't fined. Don't twist the facts. They had to pay bail, which is standard procedure.

The story did not end with their arrest and letting off - it is continuing through the voice of the people, including here. And if there is enough outrage generated, policemen will always think twice before infringing people's liberties, which they are supposed to protect, not violate.

So this is not exactly playing to the script you want it to be played, and don't pretend it is.

 

[Sashan]

Don't be a twit man. Like the twit who started it all.

What do you mean by saying "people like him live and die in the thousands everyday"?

Is that respectful? Innocent?

Was Balasaheb anybody?

Do "anybodys" have 2 million people coming on to the streets when they pass away?

Kya bakwaas kar rahe ho yaar tum jhola wadi?

Doc - Balasaheb is somebody to many and nobody to others. Does that matter if some post lacks a respect? When it comes to Nehru, I say things like idealistic idiot and fool. For many, Nehru is a respectful leader but for me, he is nobody. So can I be arrested just because he is somebody to many? Public figures are bound to be criticized and that is a democratic norm and the cops have arrested the girl illegally.

 

[vsdoc]

It hasn't ended yet. The DGP has launched an investigation into why she was arrested, and the policemen who did it will be the ones to be fined. Its the policemen who realized that they cant do such things - you haven't realized it yet.

The girls weren't fined. Don't twist the facts. They had to pay bail, which is standard procedure.

The story did not end with their arrest and letting off - it is continuing through the voice of the people, including here. And if there is enough outrage generated, policemen will always think twice before infringing people's liberties, which they are supposed to protect, not violate.

So this is not exactly playing to the script you want it to be played, and don't pretend it is.

This will happen. That will happen.

My aunt will sprout balls. Become my second uncle.

Bhai let it happen.

Till then be outraged. Be very outraged.