Indians and Democracy/Secularism - can someone explain something to me?

[EyelessInGaza]

Now first things first, please dont take this as having a pop at india, I am just asking a query...

Thank you for your outstanding post. Let me respond.

There is something that puzzles me a great deal about indians and their democratic and secularist epithet - they dont seem to understand or grasp the notion themselves imo.

This should not be surprising. No country in the world truly understands the basis on which it is formed. Also, as such, in the modern sense of the term we are a young nation (although we are also an old nation, but that's a debate I do not want to get into here). So as a young nation, our insecurities show up quite easily.

I base this on the premise that 90% of the time, whenever india is mentioned in such a way that demonstrates india is not behaving in a secularist/democratic way they always bring pakistan into it and how crap pakistan is in such and such a way (not always unfairly so i should add).

I do not agree the "90%" stat. But you could be right or wrong; I don't know, it would take an impartial observer to tell us both what's true.

But what on earth have pakistani affairs got to do with indian credentials as a credible and strong secular/democratic nation?

Nothing.

Is pakistan india's benchmark?

Nope.

Why does pakistan need to be a factor in indian issues?

The reverse question is also equally valid.

Then this leads me to my next query, why do indians get so defensive about any criticism.

[/QUOTE]

Because we are South Asians?

Do they not understand that to be secularist and democratic is to invite and acknowledge faults in your society?

Outstanding observation. Perhaps in time we will be mature enough to understand that. But then, secularism and democracy are ideals.

However, please understand that more than 90% of the criticism against India is by Indians. Here's a simple test: what are the best sources of information to criticize India?

Answer: India.

Take a look at some of the biggest scandals/ controversies in Indian history. Who revealed them? The answer is - Indians.

From a Pakistani POV: The massacre of Muslims in Gujarat? The story was broken by Indians. The dissensions within the RSS? Indians.

From a general POV: Indian poverty, Indian corruption, Indian inefficiency?

All broken by Indians!

Human rights problems in Kashmir? The authoritative sources are Indians!

Oh we acknowledge faults in our society; in fact we are at the forefront to do so.

India has defined itself as a secular and democratic nation, therefore Indians should not become defensive when people discuss the strength of this system in India because that is the standard indians have loudly chosen to define themselves as - in fact indians should welcome genuine criticism because it can serve as a vehicle to improve its society - instead they rarely do, they just get very defensive and vitriolic - to me this screams out insecurity and a gaping lack of understanding about universal democratic/secular principles.

As such I have come to a conclusion that whilst india is still definitely a democracy it as an "immature" one whose people largely do not understand it or worse still they do not wish to fully understand and implement it, instead they use it as just an epithet to bolster its image rather than genuinely act upon and implement its universal principles - this is and can have a very dangerous effect imo.

I welcome your thoughts on this.

Let me, quickly, balance the pros and cons of the Indian state, in short. Pros: Free Media, democracy that works at the lowest level(somewhat), increased wealth distribution, secularism (yeah, I know). Cons: Corruption, poverty, inequity.

Now: Of course we are 'immature'. Of course we get defensive and vitriolic when attacked. Our modern experiment is just about past the lab stage!

But here's the thing: no system ever gets to be perfect. All we can do is to try and get to the concept of perfection. The Indian system is a hell of a long way from even being acceptable. But - we are trying to get there and that is what matters.

I am hopeful about India because I have seen at the very ground level how the secular democratic system works. At an election a decade ago I personally saw a losing candidate ( a Hindu) react to his loss in a village election (Panchayat). This is what he told the winning candidate (a Muslim): $%%$%$#, Tujhe agle election mein dekh loonga!

Now that is one instance, and by no means reflective of the whole. But what it actually reflects is the fact that, in India, the struggle for power is channelized via democracy/ elections.

I agree we have many weaknesses, the status of Indian Muslims not the least. But - we try to get better, inch by inch.

In summation - we are insecure, we tend to lash out, but hey, in all honesty can you look at India today and say it has not improved from the India of ten, twenty, thirty years ago?

That's all.

 

[sensenreason]

I tend to disagree with the generalisation that Indians dont take criticism well etc...especially now with multiple sources of information.

However, just a couple of things can be mentioned as an explanation if its true, to an extent for some people....

- India is a very competitive country. To make it 'big' requires a lot of things and failure is not an option. Which is why, any wrong doing or mistakes made by govt, companies are generally not acknowledged. Well, by and large and even this culture is changing...example being the Mumbai's infrastructure woes.
So in face of failure, we are learning (and fast) to face the facts and fix the issues....the tendency to be defensive is kind of ending...and thnx to different mediums of information also where denying the truth requires too much of effort as the truth will eventually come out....

- The younger generation (I mean the one's now in early 20's) are a very smart group and confident. They wont get defensive on being criticised...as they are more conformtable in their skin....given the greater exposure and prosperity.

 

[r3alist]

Yes r3alist, ofcourse its different for an Indian when it comes from a Pakistani versus from any other nationality.

We dont live in a vacuum my friend.

We are India and Pakistan ...... and all that it implies historically.

Do you honestly expect anything different?

Or have you seen anything different from your side of the fence to cause you to expect any different from us?

Dichotomy?

Cheers, Doc

ok, thats ok, you accept that the strength of your democratic ideals from your end does not transcend or supercede indo/pak rivalries, i suspected as much.

 

[r3alist]

In India, there is a constant process of debate in the media, print as well as electronic, regarding these issues. That these reports are able to trigger such introspection in public arena, is more than an indication that these reports are 'welcome'. I do not know how much more 'welcoming' a 'reaction' has to be to qualify your parameters of 'welcoming reaction'. You forgot to give the parameters.

if thats the case then that is to india's credit, i have to say that i have not seen it myself, especially amongst the average joe in india or in this forum, who is likely to react in a way similar to that of what i described in my first post.

certain media institutions in india are i am sure largely democratic, however it does not follow that this is the discourse occuring on the street level, i can say this for pakistan aswell.

 

[r3alist]

This should not be surprising. No country in the world truly understands the basis on which it is formed. Also, as such, in the modern sense of the term we are a young nation (although we are also an old nation, but that's a debate I do not want to get into here). So as a young nation, our insecurities show up quite easily.

i disagree.

europe has a very distinct history with democracy and the struggle to democracy. this is why it "works".

most reasonably educated europeans understand important european experiences such as the role of religion in europe and the renaissance.

they understand and fully accept seperation of church and state - its never an issue.

and then ofcourse EVERYONE knows to hate the nazi's and hitler, therefore on a basic level thats very powerful since it is rooted deeply that what they are in large part can be defined as what they are not, and what they are not and never wish to be regarded as is nazi's - just this simple but powerful notion can instill democratic values and easily help everyone understand the so called basis of their nation - its why in the uk there are common references about what "our grandfathers fought for" etc etc

india basically instantaneously became a democracy, theres no so called deep historical basis pertaining to democracy that truly resonates with every indian, they all have their own biases/perspectives/views - its the same with pakistan, the vast majority have no connection with democracy and are torn between an islamic or western democratic identity - and its because of this division that neither has truly worked and why there is periodic chaos, but i suppose this is a seperate topic.

Take a look at some of the biggest scandals/ controversies in Indian history. Who revealed them? The answer is - Indians.

From a Pakistani POV: The massacre of Muslims in Gujarat? The story was broken by Indians. The dissensions within the RSS? Indians.

From a general POV: Indian poverty, Indian corruption, Indian inefficiency?

All broken by Indians!

i am no authority on the media in india, however those events could hardly be glossed over could they?

so its perhaps misleading to portray them as revelations.

Human rights problems in Kashmir? The authoritative sources are Indians!

i dispute this for sure.

Oh we acknowledge faults in our society; in fact we are at the forefront to do so.

again, i am sure there are some genuinely introspective people in india who practise what they preach, this i do not doubt, you certainly sound forward thinking and that is to your credit.

but from my initial post i was referring to the people who tend to use democracy as an epither to leverage moral superiority - and i contest that these people are a significant amount (that or they are the loudest) who do not understand what they preach, or do not wish to adopt what they preach.

 

[vsdoc]

r3alist, the place Europe finds itself today, as pointed out by you, is after centuries of medievalism, monarchy, feudalism, war, civil strife, revolution, bloodshed, and two great wars of the last century.

By contrast, in terms of time, India as a secular democratic republic is a baby, and we have reached where we are today on our own, fighting our own battles, learning from our own mistakes as well as those of others who have trod the same path before us, accepting and internalizing what is good and rejecting what does not work or will not work for us, questioning ourselves and being our own most vocal critics, accepting that for every step we take forward there will be elements both internal and external which likely may force us a step or two backwards too, but striving to move ahead all the same, coz we realise that to stand still means to move backwards in the present world, and if the goals and ideals are worth fighting for, then as a nation we will strive to achieve them collectively in our day to day lives, no matter what our neighbours or others think or say, because as a sovereign nation, we are answerable only to ourselves and to our own people, and nobody else. Of course the fact that we owe nothing to any country for our progress and our strength and economy, except our own selves, makes our position that much stronger in the global community.

The rest, like here and elsewhere, is good intellectual calisthenics, but that's all it is or ever will be.

Oh, and by the way, except in cricket, we dont really look at Pakistan as a rival (leave alone an enemy) my friend ..... coz we bat in different leagues.

Cheers, Doc

 

[rubyjackass]

they understand and fully accept seperation of church and state - its never an issue.

At a basic level there is church always. Only their influence has reduced to such a level that it is insignificant. Education is the problem here. You dont see people there joining mass movements organized by the Church(which doesn't do such things anyway).

and then ofcourse EVERYONE knows to hate the nazi's and hitler, therefore on a basic level thats very powerful since it is rooted deeply that what they are in large part can be defined as what they are not, and what they are not and never wish to be regarded as is nazi's - just this simple but powerful notion can instill democratic values and easily help everyone understand the so called basis of their nation - its why in the uk there are common references about what "our grandfathers fought for" etc etc

If hatred can instill democracy then Indians have a lot of it. We people of this part of the world are very emotional, to the point that needs no explanation. People here hate the politician they perceive to be the notorious criminal and vote against him. People fight over their candidates.

india basically instantaneously became a democracy, theres no so called deep historical basis pertaining to democracy that truly resonates with every indian, they all have their own biases/perspectives/views - its the same with pakistan, the vast majority have no connection with democracy and are torn between an islamic or western democratic identity - and its because of this division that neither has truly worked and why there is periodic chaos, but i suppose this is a seperate topic.

You should travel in a 3rd class compartment in a train, you will hear political talk, in a tea-stall, on a footpath wherever you go, people talk politics. You should come watch our village panchayat elections. You will get the vibe. When people, with their own small circle, try to help their candidate by their word asking for votes at a tea stall, women near a water pump. Kids in school talk about who their family voted for, who they wanted their parents to vote for...

May be you are misiing a lot and really feeling it now.


And the irony showed itself when you tried to 'explain' Pakistan's position above. Any way leave it I dont want to bring Pakistan in here.

i am no authority on the media in india, however those events could hardly be glossed over could they?
so its perhaps misleading to portray them as revelations.
i dispute this for sure.

Yeah, you wouldn't know, I can understand.

again, i am sure there are some genuinely introspective people in india who practise what they preach, this i do not doubt, you certainly sound forward thinking and that is to your credit.

but from my initial post i was referring to the people who tend to use democracy as an epither to leverage moral superiority - and i contest that these people are a significant amount (that or they are the loudest) who do not understand what they preach, or do not wish to adopt what they preach.

So now you are getting defensive limiting your set of adversaries? First you said India doesn't have democracy. Now you are contesting on the fact that there are people who use democracy to leverage moral superiority, which as low a punch it can be is still a fact. Its like a low blow by a flame talking about Gujarat. We know it happened. Exactly why we keep quiet on a forum like this. But here in India we do keep it in mind for the elections to come, I am talking about the simple soul living in his little world be it a remote village or a metro who can do only that because he/she has his/her life.

Do you really think that all the flames here about India not having democracy or secularism 'understand what they preach'. How come they understand them better than an average Indian when they themselves have grown up lacking one and resenting another?

Tama So Ma Jyotir gamaya

 

[praveen]

Why democracy works in India ?


My reasons

a)Gandhi's legacy

Gandhi never fought his greatest battles against the british,but with the psyche of the Indian people. He united the people who were fragmented into umpteen number of caste ,religious,regional affiliations into one and made them say"I AM AN INDIAN FIRST anything nxt".He was a great laisioner .In short he brought nationalism to the masess

b)Nehru's Ledacy

Nehru excellent decisions on the domestic front and his GOOD DECISION.In short his socialistic policies like
1)Abolition of feudalism
2)Land distribution
3)Est of Industries

c)Sardar Vallabhai Patel's legacy
Integrated the peincely states into india

d)Indhira's legacy
She protected the country during a critical phase .She was harsh like a headmistress but that was necessary.Her achievements on the domestic front
1)Abolition of privy purse
2)nationalisation of banks

She was known as the lady with balls

After that we had good leaders like Rajiv gandhi,VP Singh,Narsimha Rao,Vajpyee and MMS

In short it comes to"Good Leaders,Good decisions"hence Good examples to be emulated by others who aspire to be a leader

Pan-Indianess is hard to explain every indian thinks we are one but none knows exactly how we are one simple

 

[r3alist]

By contrast, in terms of time, India as a secular democratic republic is a baby, and we have reached where we are today on our own, fighting our own battles, learning from our own mistakes as well as those of others who have trod the same path before us, accepting and internalizing what is good and rejecting what does not work or will not work for us, questioning ourselves and being our own most vocal critics, accepting that for every step we take forward there will be elements both internal and external which likely may force us a step or two backwards too, but striving to move ahead all the same, coz we realise that to stand still means to move backwards in the present world, and if the goals and ideals are worth fighting for, then as a nation we will strive to achieve them collectively in our day to day lives, no matter what our neighbours or others think or say, because as a sovereign nation, we are answerable only to ourselves and to our own people, and nobody else. Of course the fact that we owe nothing to any country for our progress and our strength and economy, except our own selves, makes our position that much stronger in the global community.

dont take this as an insult but the above is meaningless rejoinder, its sugar coated rhetoric that could mbe true for any nation in the world, just say it out loud to yourself and it sounds like a bloated directionless speech, imo - again no offence intended i dont want to deviate from the topic and avoid silly arguments, thanks.

 

[praveen]

dont take this as an insult but the above is meaningless rejoinder, its sugar coated rhetoric that could mbe true for any nation in the world, just say it out loud to yourself and it sounds like a bloated directionless speech, imo - again no offence intended i dont want to deviate from the topic and avoid silly arguments, thanks.

truth hurts,but What he said is very very True

 

[r3alist]

If hatred can instill democracy then Indians have a lot of it.

i never said hatred, i said a shared experience which resonates with the common man, well educated or not.

in britain thats ww2, everyone knows that the nazi's were an "evil dictatorship" and that their grandfathers died fighting against them to live in freedom - therefore by knowing what they are not it reinforeces what they are.


(i am essentially paraphrasing this quote

"“There can be no true friends without
true enemies. Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are. These are the old truths we
are painfully rediscovering after a century and more of sentimental cant. Those who deny them deny their
family, their heritage, their culture, their birthright, their very selves! They will not lightly be forgiven.” - michael dibdin)


with india and the average indians (i am mainly referring to hindu's) their past thousand years has been tainted deeply in their hearts and minds by colonial rule - islamic and british.

so there is no shared experience to reinforce or promote democratic values - therefore the average indian (a broad term, but i think you know what i mean) does not truly understand the principles of what they preach (and they preach it very loudly), they understand history well, they understand their own history in particular - but they also understand democracy and its favourable depiction/image - however there is a disconnect between the history they feel and relate to and the democracy they preach - this most prominetly come to the fore should a pakistani exert his democratic right to say something about india (democracy is after all a universal principle), in fact even a bangladeshi or british person aswell.

First you said India doesn't have democracy

wrong, read back, i very explicitly said india is a democracy, however i think you should note i am talking about the people and their relation to democracy rather than the nations institutions - which ofcourse are two seperate things - i am trying to bring the topic back along this path.

" that whilst india is still definitely a democracy"

Now you are contesting on the fact that there are people who use democracy to leverage moral superiority

wrong again, i said this from the outset aswell.

"instead they use it as just an epithet to bolster its image rather than genuinely act upon and implement its universal principles - this is and can have a very dangerous effect imo."

Its like a low blow by a flame talking about Gujarat. We know it happened. Exactly why we keep quiet on a forum like this. But here in India we do keep it in mind for the elections to come,

so on contentious issues with pakistani's your universalist and democratic ideals weaken?

they either exist or they dont, you either practise them, or you dont.

this is my common observation with indians and their practise of their democratic epithet - it can weaken very rapidly.

 

[r3alist]

truth hurts,but What he said is very very True

its a noble spirit he seems to have, good for you, him and india, i mean it.

however, those words have come from a person who has openly admitted that the practise and belief of his democratic values does not transcend the whole india/pakistan discourse.

its funny that some americans are now saying similar things to what pakistani's have been saying, is there a change in perspective? (now that its coming from a fellow democratic friendly ally?)

either way, you will come to the conclusion that the becnhmark is not met for the values he preaches.

 

[vsdoc]

r3alist, I am sorry you feel my rejoinder to you was rhetoric but I see where you come from. As a Pakistani, you grew up taught to hate us and all that we stand for. So to you an Indian who believes in the concept of India and aticulates it comes across as rhetoric cause with your experiences and influences and education and subliminal cues growing up, no one can actually believe this crap about India (about what YOU have been lead to believe is India) as espoused by an Indian (about what YOU have been lead to believe is a typical Indian). You see the world through the lenses you wear, and not the ones worn by someone else. So what you do not believe in or have not been led to believe in cannot POSSIBLY be believed by anyone else right? Your world is your oyster, and that oyster is Pakistan, why it was born, why it needed to be born, against whom it was supposed to be born, and why and against whom you are supposed to exist each day as a nation and a people. Please do not take this personally, cause like you I too am generalising and taking the liberty to paint uni-hued with a single brush stroke you and all Pakistanis, for like you and India/Indians, that is MY frame of reference for Pakistan/Pakistanis here at defense.pk

Coming to what or what not I have "openly admitted to" please take the opportunity to re-read my earlier posts. Even as a Pakistani, if genuinely intended to learn/understand without prejudice, you will get a decent debate from Indians here about what our shortcomings are. However, you will get a different response if your motives are otherwise. Same for Chinese here. Or for Americans. Or any other nationality for that matter. Like H1N1, finger pointing is a contagious illness and two can easily play the game, and within no time everyone is infected.

Cheers, Doc

 

[r3alist]

As a Pakistani, you grew up taught to hate us and all that we stand for.

hehe, i stopped reading after that, so it comes to this again, it seems you illustrate my initial post rather well.

tell me one thing, how on earth can one person so effusively gush about
being wonderfully democratic/secular and then in the very next moment produce a racial/religious stereotype that is so very antithetical to what he preaches?

 

[vsdoc]

The same way you guys can gush on and on about Islamic tolerance while systematically ensuring your country "cleanses" itself over the past 6 decades of all non-Islamic "kafirs" (or nearly all ..... no one's perfect ).

And of course, the sheer irony of a Pakistani wanting to "discuss" "genuinely" Democracy and Secularism with an Indian would not be lost on you too I am sure! LOL

Cheers, Doc