Indian Special Forces

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Good find all points have been covered.

Ask an Indian intelligence official about the challenge involved in tracking Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives inside Pakistan and they all give the same answer . Most officers who have served in Pakistan say that India has the capability to hit the terror group in Pakistan, but the government doesn't allow such covert actions. "We don't do covert operations like the CIA, MI6 and Mossad. This doesn't mean that we don't have the capability. Given a chance, we could prove equal to all these agencies," says a former officer.

But sources in the R&AW , India's external agency, say India lacks both political will and the capability to carry out a hit inside Pakistan. "We do not have the mandate to do what Mossad does. Our charter does not include the job of getting (or assassinating) people from other countries. If such political will is there, the agency would be able to do it," says a senior RAW official.
In fact, over the past two decades the agency has even lost some of its capability for covert operations abroad. "During the 1980s, the agency used to have two Counter Intelligence Teams (CITs) in Pakistan: one targeting the country and the other targeting Khalistani militant infrastructure. However, during Prime Minister I K Gujral's time, both these teams were dismantled and the extensive human intelligence network in Pakistan was scaled down," says another official. "Done purely on moral grounds, this severely affected our capability. That structure h a s a s yet not been restored as the political class here believes that covert operations spoil bilateral relations," he adds. The agency, sources say, now conducts operations primarily by paying money to local operatives in Pakistan instead of its own agents. But such groups can't hit out at ISI-protected figures like Hafiz Saeed and Dawood Ibrahim. Another former officer , who has spent a considerable time studying these outfits, attributes it to the fundamental difference between India and Pakistan in dealing with espionage. "It takes a great deal of money and time to cultivate sources in foreign soil. We don't have either in plenty, unlike countries in the West. Pakistan's ISI is better off in this as the state sponsors terrorism ," he says.

In order to surmount the challenges on the ground, most intelligence officers believe that they need better equipment for surveillance as well as the go-ahead for covert tactics. "The direction finders we used before would give us kilometre per square information about somebody we wanted to track. We knew he was there somewhere but couldn't pinpoint his location. Now, of course, we have better technology . But if you pit it against what the Americans use, there is a lot of catching up to do. However, even with smarter technology we cannot do much unless our government allows us to do covert operations. You will see the difference then."

It states that we dont have the capability and the political will for carrying out any such operation because of the great IK Gujral.Political will every one understands but in order to have the capability we neeed to have 2 things.One is intelligence and second is Hit teams.Now when the author states that we dont have the capability that means we lack any such Hit team in Pakistan whereas it cannot be denied that we have intelligence teams.So my point like earlier is..Where is the Hit team?You guys are talking about a Hit team comprising of Mercenaries who will carry out any operation if given orders..SO this Hit team needs to be present in pakistan? If yes then it will have guys who dont get posted regularly like Army regulars...So they might be having some base?..and this article states that we dont have any such thing in Pakistan..Hence i say it is a thing of the past which we dont have right now.


SFF is no secret organisation..It was used in Kargil ops like a regular infantry.It is the parent unit of the NSG coz of its participation in Op Bule Star and it also took part in 1971 war...Indian Army Officers go on deputation to SFF and they are the backbone of this unit...Vikas unit is THE SF of SFF and it only and only comprises of Indians..even Tibetians are not allowed.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Lol.....jai hind

Indian intelligence agencies are limited to offensive capabilities in India and maybe a few friendly countries like Nepal,Bangladesh and Sri Lanka ie they have Hit teams in these countries which consiosts of Indians...there have been several arrests in Nepal which prove this and this is possible only because the govt. is friendly.Now in Pakistan we lack any Hit teams plus we are limited to Intelligence gathering thanks to IK gujral and moreover the focus of our agencies is to counter terror and prevent attacks..Revenge and Assasinations are beyong the capabilty and political will of our Intelligence units..I mean we are no Mossad.

 

[david blain]

Indian intelligence agencies are limited to offensive capabilities in India and maybe a few friendly countries like Nepal,Bangladesh and Sri Lanka ie they have Hit teams in these countries which consiosts of Indians...there have been several arrests in Nepal which prove this and this is possible only because the govt. is friendly.Now in Pakistan we lack any Hit teams plus we are limited to Intelligence gathering thanks to IK gujral and moreover the focus of our agencies is to counter terror and prevent attacks..Revenge and Assasinations are beyong the capabilty and political will of our Intelligence units..I mean we are no Mossad.

you broke my heart

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

you broke my heart

Why?

 

[Abingdonboy]

you broke my heart

Why? India is not a vigilante who regularly undertakes extra-judicial killings and violates sovereignty of others. India is a respected player in the world community.India respects the rule of law. The US and Israel have made A LOT of enemies this way.

 

[david blain]

Indian intelligence agencies are limited to offensive capabilities in India and maybe a few friendly countries like Nepal,Bangladesh and Sri Lanka ie they have Hit teams in these countries which consiosts of Indians...there have been several arrests in Nepal which prove this and this is possible only because the govt. is friendly.Now in Pakistan we lack any Hit teams plus we are limited to Intelligence gathering thanks to IK gujral and moreover the focus of our agencies is to counter terror and prevent attacks..Revenge and Assasinations are beyong the capabilty and political will of our Intelligence units..I mean we are no Mossad.

because of this ...

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

because of this ...

Yaar..capability is only developed when there is a Go-ahead given by the Govt.I didnt mean to say we dont have the right people..I mean these guys are not allowed to develop the capabilities..given a chance the RAW can get anything done anywhere but for that we will need a great leader which we dont have.Our country is filled with politicians but no leaders.OTOH Mossad is given freedom to carry out such activities...I mean if a green signal is given it wont take a long time to assasinate our enemies having a comfortable life there.

 

[david blain]

Why? India is not a vigilante who regularly undertakes extra-judicial killings and violates sovereignty of others. India is a respected player in the world community.India respects the rule of law. The US and Israel have made A LOT of enemies this way.

Even i am not in total favor to under take extra judicial killing and violets sovereignty of other country but atleast we should have that capability country is above all and to save once country have to do anything it takes ... Think israel without mossad u can say its because of mossad Israel still exist ... we should have capabality to nutralies people like dawood hafeez and maulana masood ...

Yaar..capability is only developed when there is a Go-ahead given by the Govt.I didnt mean to say we dont have the right people..I mean these guys are not allowed to develop the capabilities..given a chance the RAW can get anything done anywhere but for that we will need a great leader which we dont have.Our country is filled with politicians but no leaders.OTOH Mossad is given freedom to carry out such activities...I mean if a green signal is given it wont take a long time to assasinate our enemies having a comfortable life there.

Bhai to pahele se thik se bola kar u knw abt novel thing

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Bhai to pahele se thik se bola kar u knw abt novel thing

Dude,i am dead tired...Isliye short me likh k kaam chala raha tha.

 

[Sergi]

It states that we dont have the capability and the political will for carrying out any such operation because of the great IK Gujral.Political will every one understands but in order to have the capability we neeed to have 2 things.One is intelligence and second is Hit teams.Now when the author states that we dont have the capability that means we lack any such Hit team in Pakistan whereas it cannot be denied that we have intelligence teams.So my point like earlier is..Where is the Hit team?You guys are talking about a Hit team comprising of Mercenaries who will carry out any operation if given orders..SO this Hit team needs to be present in pakistan? If yes then it will have guys who dont get posted regularly like Army regulars...So they might be having some base?..and this article states that we dont have any such thing in Pakistan..Hence i say it is a thing of the past which we dont have right now.


SFF is no secret organisation..It was used in Kargil ops like a regular infantry.It is the parent unit of the NSG coz of its participation in Op Bule Star and it also took part in 1971 war...Indian Army Officers go on deputation to SFF and they are the backbone of this unit...Vikas unit is THE SF of SFF and it only and only comprises of Indians..even Tibetians are not allowed.

Man I highlight some point for a purpose

Most officers who have served in Pakistan say that India has the capability to hit the terror group in Pakistan, but the government doesn't allow such covert actions. - Field officers Opinion. It clear says "has"

This doesn't mean that we don't have the capability. Given a chance, we could prove equal to all these agencies," - self explanatory sentence


India lacks both political will and the capability to carry out a hit inside Pakistan. "We do not have the mandate to do what Mossad does. Our charter does not include the job of getting (or assassinating) people from other countries. If such political will is there, the agency would be able to do it," says a senior RAW official. :
- How ??? We don't have capabilities. He isn't saying we will develope the capabilities and would do it. It's just we would be able to do it. Even he is stressing on political will. He is confident of capacity or can develope capacity in short notice


lost some of its capability
intelligence network in Pakistan was scaled down - SCALED DOWN not closed.

now conducts operations primarily by paying money to local operatives in Pakistan instead of its own agents.: - what does it mean ??? Now conduts. Not can if buts. It clearly says it does.

But such groups can't hit out at ISI-protected figures like Hafiz Saeed and Dawood - another one point we discussed earlier as "easy or difficult"

unless our government allows us to do covert operations. You will see the difference then." : it's the import one

SFF is no secret organisation.. NOW but it was in past

I didn't have much info on "Vikas" so I will avoid commenting on it till I get some and not from Net will definatly come back on this point then

Where is the Hit team?You guys are talking about a Hit team comprising of Mercenaries who will carry out any operation if given orders..SO this Hit team needs to be present in pakistan? If yes then it will have guys who dont get posted regularly like Army regulars... - Yes said it 5/6 times earlier. Paid job and can't be called as SF. People calling them SF may be due to their operators are SF. That's it

Dude I think you have made you opinion and won't change it unless and untill you find something concrete
Even this article is BOLD for TOI standards. Put yourself in those officers shoes and imagine what the things you would have told media ???
Sometimes reading between line helps.

Why? India is not a vigilante who regularly undertakes extra-judicial killings and violates sovereignty of others. India is a respected player in the world community.India respects the rule of law. The US and Israel have made A LOT of enemies this way.

100 %. But only purpose isnt killing enemy. Sometimes we need to protect our interests in area or get out a imp FRIEND or keep watch on something/someone.
violates sovereignty: it's a funny term every country has its networks in other countries. And will be doing the things in its countries interests. Sometimes illegal in Parent country.
Thing here is not to get caugh

 

[Sergi]

Yaar..capability is only developed when there is a Go-ahead given by the Govt.I didnt mean to say we dont have the right people..I mean these guys are not allowed to develop the capabilities..given a chance the RAW can get anything done anywhere but for that we will need a great leader which we dont have.Our country is filled with politicians but no leaders.OTOH Mossad is given freedom to carry out such activities...I mean if a green signal is given it wont take a long time to assasinate our enemies having a comfortable life there.

100 % correct.
BTW even MOSSAD need Hit flag. They don't have freedom to hit on own wish. Order is issued from Highest level of Civilian leader and so is for CIA. It's just their leaders

 

[Sergi]

.
we can't prove somethings.
So Let everybody assume/belive/imagine whatever they want I am done with it. So you guies can continue

OR
let's CLOSE this topic here and stick to our regular SF news and images

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Man I highlight some point for a purpose

Most officers who have served in Pakistan say that India has the capability to hit the terror group in Pakistan, but the government doesn't allow such covert actions. - Field officers Opinion. It clear says "has"

This doesn't mean that we don't have the capability. Given a chance, we could prove equal to all these agencies," - self explanatory sentence


India lacks both political will and the capability to carry out a hit inside Pakistan. "We do not have the mandate to do what Mossad does. Our charter does not include the job of getting (or assassinating) people from other countries. If such political will is there, the agency would be able to do it," says a senior RAW official. :
- How ??? We don't have capabilities. He isn't saying we will develope the capabilities and would do it. It's just we would be able to do it. Even he is stressing on political will. He is confident of capacity or can develope capacity in short notice


lost some of its capability
intelligence network in Pakistan was scaled down - SCALED DOWN not closed.

now conducts operations primarily by paying money to local operatives in Pakistan instead of its own agents.: - what does it mean ??? Now conduts. Not can if buts. It clearly says it does.

But such groups can't hit out at ISI-protected figures like Hafiz Saeed and Dawood - another one point we discussed earlier as "easy or difficult"

unless our government allows us to do covert operations. You will see the difference then." : it's the import one
SFF is no secret organisation.. NOW but it was in past

I didn't have much info on "Vikas" so I will avoid commenting on it till I get some and not from Net will definatly come back on this point then

Where is the Hit team?You guys are talking about a Hit team comprising of Mercenaries who will carry out any operation if given orders..SO this Hit team needs to be present in pakistan? If yes then it will have guys who dont get posted regularly like Army regulars... - Yes said it 5/6 times earlier. Paid job and can't be called as SF. People calling them SF may be due to their operators are SF. That's it

Dude I think you have made you opinion and won't change it unless and untill you find something concrete
Even this article is BOLD for TOI standards. Put yourself in those officers shoes and imagine what the things you would have told media ???
Sometimes reading between line helps.



100 %. But only purpose isnt killing enemy. Sometimes we need to protect our interests in area or get out a imp FRIEND or keep watch on something/someone.
violates sovereignty: it's a funny term every country has its networks in other countries. And will be doing the things in its countries interests. Sometimes illegal in Parent country.
Thing here is not to get caugh

You guys were saying that SG comprises of mercenaries?..what about that..Where is that proved?..I was saying from the start that SG comprises of Indian PARA SF and till now it hasnt been proved wrong..you are only repeating my points and using it against me..It was me who said that RAW would have such paid mercenaries and not SG of the SFF...and now you are using my article to highlight my points against me

Kindly read who is posting what properly..From the begining of this debate i have mainted a few points:-

*SG ie Vikas regtt has only Indians thsat too Para SF
*SFF doesnt have have any mercenary team
*RAW operates Mercenaries
*SFF is basically a type of Army like force which is heavily relying on Army for Officers and various other ranks.

These points i still maintain and i have enough evidence atleast that i am quiet confident of what i know.

Its for you to prove it otherwise coz you and one more guy were saying that SFF has mercenaries..and now you are saying that RAW has mercenaries and it has Hit teams in Pakistan which gets paid to do the job...I mean you are confusing me.

 

[Sergi]

We never know for sure. I am the one who belive SFF and SG are different. And RAW operates SOF too.
Even RAW is belived to have forgine Operatives too.
But as I said earlier Nobody can confirm anything

I agree with it ^^^. But it's SG

What I said I belive SG and SFF are different.

Small teams with two Operators watching over. No linking between two teams. Only Hit missions if needed. No delivery or rescue missions.


That's the Rule of the Game here

In very Very small number and in well spread area. These guies do this thing for money. If not for us then for others. It is always good to have assets in such areas where you need to keep your indirect hold. It's just Business.

CIA operates Mercenaries all over the world. If some experts are to be belived some of our Scientist didn't die in accidents. Sad but dirty truth

I wasn't taking about ONLY Afgan Mereenaries. We have got variety there around whole map of Asia
Yes they can choose Opposite side but they aren't let unattained and we don't need them for day to day business. If a SF can do the job, then these guies aren't involved in OP at all.
As far as their training is concerned I don't think that would be much as these guies are well prepared in their own profession. Some fine touchs and weapons. That's all.

These guies are stand alone assets. No joint OPs. They are only used to hit and run OPs

Something interesting to read in you want to know how dirty the game can become:
interesting news: MYSTERY DEATH OF TWO INDIAN NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS [1] HOMI BHABHA 1966 AND [2]Dr.VIKRAM SARABHAI 1971

He is in ISI's protection plus his own Men. And you can't take on Army guies in the centre of City with handfull of Merc. If any one of them caugh alive and talk about OP then you know what will be the result.

Taking down Dawood will be difficult but won't be impossible. What we lack is a political will. And not the asset or resources.

BTW I never claim anything True. I am just sharing what I collect from various sources. It's upto you to belive or not. We live in information era. Information is a weapon

DAWOOD is a big asset for ISI. His network in India can do a lot of things. So keeping him alive is priority.
Last report of GOI about him mention he live in a ISI safe house guarded by special forces (may be SSG)
And we get the idea of ISI safe house from OBL raid. So he isn't sitting duck.

In Pakistan no one is safe - its just for common man

Sniper issue is closed when you say safe house. It would have been already considered by ISI
Mercenaries can kill a drug lord. No doubt. But can they run over a safe house all by themselves when 15/20 commandos guarding it. Forget the personal gaurds. And from a place where backup and reinforcement for them is few min aways ???
It will be a suicide mission.
If one has to take such target one need to Wait and watch. And trap the opportunity when came out. Be first and foremost thing we need political go


The moment he become liability they will kill him themself

I know a One OP long away from Indian boarder where IA SF extracted a VVIP package from enemy territory and take it to safe place before airlifting it to INDIA. Mercenary forces where used to divert the attention from this activity which gave SF time window for extraction.
I can't write the name of enemy or package. But this happen in 2008. And OP wasn't near any of Indian boarder. This will be enough for guess

That's the problem dude. I can't write the details. I write the only things that I can write without giving away important details.
The mentioned OP wasn't related to 26/11.


Exactly 90% RAW findings are unaudited. It's a good explanation why ???

Pakistan has send assassins 4/5 times in India to hit political targets. They failed everytime. ( it's what IB says )

I think we are stuck in LABLEING things that may be the problem here.
What I understand RAW can use any asset in India. Be it IA/IN/IAF.
SFF is directly under RAW. SG is IA element attached to SFF. I think everybody agree till here.

I think I clearly mention two terms in my previous posts. " Operators" and "operatives"
Operators are SG guies - IA guies
Operatives are local area assets - in warlord countries these are Mercenaries and in civilised world these are sleeping modules.
These Operative units are very small and have only one way communication through their OPERATORS.
So we can't label them as SG. But the operators who handle these units are SG guies. So may be they are considered as part of SG

Last thing and repeating it again. Any job that SF can do by itself is done by SF only. Operatives are for Hit and Run mission.

I don't think any nation will accept legally that they Operate Mercenaries. It's against golden rule. But they have to do this dirty game.


You don't need to be sorry my friend. It's normal that we need facts to belive something

I tried to explain above ^^^ what I understand.
But seriously, will any force make a documentation that they operate Mercenaries these guies are barbarians. to kill is their profession sometimes for money. How you gona justify such operations to civilised world who belive in Human Rights ???

I can give you one recent example. Iranian nuclear scientist's assassination. Israel/USA has best of best. Did they do it themselves ???
It were Iranian Operatives/mercenaries.
It is impossible for US/Israel citizen tobe inside Iran for covert OPs due to obivious reasons

Depends on the cause. General logic is "Enemy of enemy is a friend". If we can't find such FRIENDS then Money option.

As i said earlier I don't think they are trained like SFs. Just some fine touching and weapons. Most of these guies ( paid ) are professionals.

You guys were saying that SG comprises of mercenaries?..what about that..Where is that proved?..I was saying from the start that SG comprises of Indian PARA SF and till now it hasnt been proved wrong..you are only repeating my points and using it against me..It was me who said that RAW would have such paid mercenaries and not SG of the SFF...and now you are using my article to highlight my points against me

Kindly read who is posting what properly..From the begining of this debate i have mainted a few points:-

*SG ie Vikas regtt has only Indians thsat too Para SF
*SFF doesnt have have any mercenary team
*RAW operates Mercenaries
*SFF is basically a type of Army like force which is heavily relying on Army for Officers and various other ranks.

These points i still maintain and i have enough evidence atleast that i am quiet confident of what i know.

Its for you to prove it otherwise coz you and one more guy were saying that SFF has mercenaries..and now you are saying that RAW has mercenaries and it has Hit teams in Pakistan which gets paid to do the job...I mean you are confusing me.

You guies - please be specific - I don't recall saying that. I have quoted all my posts. Be my guest to show where I said it
Well I mentioned all the points in YOUR article before YOU post the article. Your article actually back me up. Please have alook at all my posts and your article

Dawood would have been an easy kill for these mercenaries.

This was you were saying before article

 

[SamantK]

So many special forces, hard to keep a track of