Indian Special Forces

[hkdas]

I don't agree that increasing the number of operators will necessarily affect the quality of the training as long as the NSG also increases its capacity to train operators and allocates/receives more budget per operator- which it is succeeding on both accounts-With the regional centres in Hydrabad and Chennai being "mini-Mansears" in a sense, able to impart all relevant refresher training on operators once they have passed out of Mansear and are deployed regionally in the Hubs so there is no extra burden on the NSG's central/main training centre- additionally the SRG is actively being reduced so more budget is being freed up for the SAG operators.

The US SOFs have been expanded many times in the past 13 years and if anything they are better trained today than ever before.

they are taking about increasing number not the budget of the force. increasing number of hubs are good, but increasing number of commandos are not. in all probability there is no need for 460 personnel in one hub. in case of an emergency like 26/11, the size of NSG deployed will be less than 150. The number of active duty FBI HRT is less that 90(the US counterpart of NSG) and the country like US were more crimes are occurring has only this small no of personals, NSG is increasing the number like they are creating an infantry unit. total number of NSG is ~10,000. while FBI HRT is >90... what NSG need is a better mobility, not number. as we all know that the NSG is facing deficit of choppers. there is no decision for allotting additional helicopters for NSG.
the budget for HRT is many times bigger than that of NSG,

 

[Sergi]

@coldheartedaviator @Abingdonboy @hkdas

I need some confirmation opinion

Every year SF of tri series held a competition in Mumbai and best of the best are selected for unspecified job.
What you say !!!! Rumour or truth ????

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

Unsure about that and anyway that would only be useful (if it existed) once a gun had been discharged. And anyway, how would such a sensor prevent a suicide bomber?

Look at that crowd, I doubt they had all been cleared ahead of time (as would happen in India), any one of them could be a potential risk and by stopping Modi exposed himself to that threat and the Nepali security were unable to maintain an effective cordon around either Modi or the cavalcade meaning people were within touching distance of both him and the vehicles in the convoy (another massive no-no).

Hidden Government Scanners Will Instantly Know Everything About You From 164 Feet Away
New device uses sniffer bees to detect explosives | Homeland Security News Wire

i am sure the PM gets these snazzy gizmos in the safari and van following him

 

[hkdas]

@coldheartedaviator @Abingdonboy @hkdas

I need some confirmation opinion

Every year SF of tri series held a competition in Mumbai and best of the best are selected for unspecified job.
What you say !!!! Rumour or truth ????

i think it is Rumour, never heard of anything like that.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@ Abingdonboy

I see modi in bmw...can tata or any other indian company develop car for PM?

As a one off? Probably, but would such a project (for at most 12 cars) be economically viable? Doubtful.

There was a lot of talk on this very subject once Modi had been elected as PM but not sworn in, Mahindra had publicly stated they would like Modi to continue using the Scorpio as his official vehicle once PM, thankfully the SPG have the last word on all security matters concerning the PM and rubbished this absurd idea.

The BMW 760Li Security used by the SPG for PM travel is perhaps the finest and most secure head of state vehicle available after the "beast" of POTUS (even that has some major drawbacks), with BMW having decades of expertise in this field it would take a lot for any Indian manufacturer to come up with a superior product (it would have to be superior to justify switching over, right? No point in downgrading the PM's security just for some misplaced pride). Tata is probably the best candidate given they have JLR under their umbrella, but even then they would have to invest a lot of R&D . The fact of the matter is that Tata and Mahindra are both cost-effective/budget manufacturers the world leaders of the Head of State security vehicle/VVIP armouring market are all high-end luxury brands (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lincoln) and mostly German. Not everyone has comparable products and the world standard are a select few models from the above. Until Tata and Mahindra are producing products comparable with the Mercedes S-Class and BMW 7 Series, it is not even worth contemplating this.

All in all, save the tax payers some money (it would be needlessly wasteful to replace these brand new 7 series with an Indian product now) and be happy with what is there- it does the job excellently.

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

As a one off? Probably, but would such a project (for at most 12 cars) be economically viable? Doubtful.

There was a lot of talk on this very subject once Modi had been elected as PM but not sworn in, Mahindra had publicly stated they would like Modi to continue using the Scorpio as his official vehicle once PM, thankfully the SPG have the last word on all security matters concerning the PM and rubbished this absurd idea.

The BMW 760Li Security used by the SPG for PM travel is perhaps the finest and most secure head of state vehicle available after the "beast" of POTUS (even that has some major drawbacks), with BMW having decades of expertise in this field it would take a lot for any Indian manufacturer to come up with a superior product (it would have to be superior to justify switching over, right? No point in downgrading the PM's security just for some misplaced pride). Tata is probably the best candidate given they have JLR under their umbrella, but even then they would have to invest a lot of R&D . The fact of the matter is that Tata and Mahindra are both cost-effective/budget manufacturers the world leaders of the Head of State security vehicle/VVIP armouring market are all high-end luxury brands (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lincoln) and mostly German. Not everyone has comparable products and the world standard are a select few models from the above. Until Tata and Mahindra are producing products comparable with the Mercedes S-Class and BMW 7 Series, it is not even worth contemplating this.

All in all, save the tax payers some money (it would be needlessly wasteful to replace these brand new 7 series with an Indian product now) and be happy with what is there- it does the job excellently.

Ahem Ahem, we could go the Jag route
They make fine cars for heads of states too, partly Indian :p

 

[Sergi]

i think it is Rumour, never heard of anything like that.

I can tell you one thing for sure its not Rumour - the competition .
It take place in INS Shivaji. Every-year. If not for the caps I would have never known it was paras
I wana check if anybody-else knew about it.

 

[hkdas]

Discovery Channel India player

 

[Abingdonboy]

they are taking about increasing number not the budget of the force. increasing number of hubs are good, but increasing number of commandos are not. in all probability there is no need for 460 personnel in one hub. in case of an emergency like 26/11, the size of NSG deployed will be less than 150. The number of active duty FBI HRT is less that 90(the US counterpart of NSG) and the country like US were more crimes are occurring has only this small no of personals, NSG is increasing the number like they are creating an infantry unit. total number of NSG is ~10,000. while FBI HRT is >90... what NSG need is a better mobility, not number. as we all know that the NSG is facing deficit of choppers. there is no decision for allotting additional helicopters for NSG.
the budget for HRT is many times bigger than that of NSG,

Read the new bro- nowhere does it say that the NSG is going to expand its current force and recruit more men to increase the numbers in each hub. More likely it will just better distribute its operators throughout the country instead of having the bulk in Mansear.

Also your figure of 10,000 NSG is including the SRG (by far larger than the SAG) who are not involved in CT roles at all but for VVIP protection but this figure is now inaccurate (NSG is actively reducing the size of the SRG). The size of the SAG (the actual "shooters"/CT specialist 100% drawn from the IA) has and will not change from around 2,000 operators.


The FBI HRT comparison is fair HOWEVER, it should also be noted that the FBI has its own SWAT teams based in all its field offices spread around the US AND that every state and city/town in the US has VERY well equipped special response units so the availability of well armed and well trained CT specialists in any corner of the US is FAR higher than across India where,yes, local and state police forces are improving their respective special response units but India has nothing like the FBI SWAT teams spread out across its country.

I agree with you that quality cannot be compromised for quality but I honestly don't believe this will happen in the NSG, in fact the reverse will.

Also I am in full agreement that the NSG needs to have its mobility significantly boosted, to date it has to rely on the IAF to loan helos to them as well as a/c (along with the NSG now having the power to commandeer any a/c in Indian airspace in an emergency). Ideally the NSG would have its own fixed and rotary wing a/c (the latter deployed at every hub and the former at the nearest airport to each hub).

Ahem Ahem, we could go the Jag route
They make fine cars for heads of states too, partly Indian :p

I knew this would come up. Jags are not really an option, to get a Jag up to the same spec as a 760Li Security you would be paying 3-4 times the cost of a BMW as Jaguar are not as involved in up-armouring their products as the Germans are so all XJR VVIP versions are bespoke and arguably not as effective their German counterparts.

So not only wasteful from a taxpayer's point of view then, how many would see a Jag as an Indian car? Not many really. Tata could work with their people at JLR to come up with a one-off Tata sedan for the PM but it wouldn't be economically viable unless Tata were able to pass on some/all of the R&D costs of such a vehicle onto the SPG which would again be a massive waste of taxpayer rupees.

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

I knew this would come up. Jags are not really an option, to get a Jag up to the same spec as a 760Li Security you would be paying 3-4 times the cost of a BMW as Jaguar are not as involved in up-armouring their products as the Germans are so all XJR VVIP versions are bespoke and arguably not as effective their German counterparts.

So not only wasteful from a taxpayer's point of view then, how many would see a Jag as an Indian car? Not many really. Tata could work with their people at JLR to come up with a one-off Tata sedan for the PM but it wouldn't be economically viable unless Tata were able to pass on some/all of the R&D costs of such a vehicle onto the SPG which would again be a massive waste of taxpayer rupees.

and this is standard vehicle offered to VIP's not for heads of state
Jaguar armored division makes one hell of a vehicle, nimble, strong and fast

 

[Abingdonboy]

View attachment 42589

and this is standard vehicle offered to VIP's not for heads of state
Jaguar armored division makes one hell of a vehicle, nimble, strong and fast

For a comparably spec'd Jag (as the PM's 7 series) you would be looking at more than $340,000 USD EACH, the PM's current 760Li of the SPG costs around $230,000-250,000. Is that extra $100,000 or so worth it for a Jag that is widely seen as a British brand and NOT Indian?

The BMW 760Li Security currently used is likely superior to the Jaguar products and comes in cheaper.

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

For a comparably spec'd Jag (as the PM's 7 series) you would be looking at more than $340,000 USD EACH, the PM's current 760Li of the SPG costs around $230,000-250,000. Is that extra $100,000 or so worth it for a Jag that is widely seen as a British brand and NOT Indian?

The BMW 760Li Security currently used is likely superior to the Jaguar products and comes in cheaper.

Its over $600,000 for BMW 760Li, jags are more of an tailor made kit. Jags Still turn out to be cheaper for standard model
It depends how protection you load the jag with

 

[Abingdonboy]

Its over $600,000 for BMW 760Li

Source?

Anyway even IF (doubtful IMHO) that is the case. The SPG has already sunk funds and opted for the 760Li over any other product (they are experts with very deep pockets, they had the options to buy whatever they liked and they bought the BMW- says a lot about how highly they rate it) so it makes no sense to get rid of the dozen or so BRAND NEW (yes less than 4 months old) 760Li for some Jags who would be made in the UK anyway. It would be a waste of money to get rid of the BMWs now or for another 2-3 years. What tangible benefit do the Jags bring over the 760Li? How many world leaders over than the UK PM (for obvious PR reasons) use the Jags as their official vehicles? How many use German cars (most btw)?

jags are more of an tailor made kit.

BMW offer customisation too, the Indian PM's fleet of 760Li feature dedicated satellite communications and other undisclosed upgrades on the basic Security package. The Indian PM 760Li Security is probably the most well equipped and advanced 760Li Security anywhere in the world.

@coldheartedaviator @Abingdonboy @hkdas

I need some confirmation opinion

Every year SF of tri series held a competition in Mumbai and best of the best are selected for unspecified job.
What you say !!!! Rumour or truth ????

Never heard anything remotely on this! Any more details bro? Very intriguing indeed...

I can tell you one thing for sure its not Rumour - the competition .
It take place in INS Shivaji. Every-year. If not for the caps I would have never known it was paras
I wana check if anybody-else knew about it.

You've seen pics of such?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Interesting SFs would feature in a documentary about the LoC- should show just what a vital role these guys in guarding the LoC, maybe given another insight into their heli-borne rapid interventions to thwart infiltration attempts.



@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

this one??
Video | Discovery Channel India

I cant watch it.

they are taking about increasing number not the budget of the force. increasing number of hubs are good, but increasing number of commandos are not. in all probability there is no need for 460 personnel in one hub. in case of an emergency like 26/11, the size of NSG deployed will be less than 150. The number of active duty FBI HRT is less that 90(the US counterpart of NSG) and the country like US were more crimes are occurring has only this small no of personals, NSG is increasing the number like they are creating an infantry unit. total number of NSG is ~10,000. while FBI HRT is >90... what NSG need is a better mobility, not number. as we all know that the NSG is facing deficit of choppers. there is no decision for allotting additional helicopters for NSG.
the budget for HRT is many times bigger than that of NSG,

Exactly..The US budget is 700 billion while our is 40 even when our forces are more.Plus the US SF operators are less or close to our figures when they are active in over 100 countires while ours are just active internally.

These guys have no idea how to manage and structure a special force.For them SF is like a super infantry based on the tactis of human wave...bloody idiots need to learn from others.What will 460 men deployed in Hyderabad do when most of these 460 will be from Para SF which are already overstretched.

Instead of multiplying their nunber why not concentrate on providiing better equipment and skill.

The average Western SF operator is still 10 times more better equipped than ours.

At the end of the day 100 well equipped and trainned operators are better than 460 under equipped.

And with force like NSG it is easier to guess than numbers dont matter.

Interesting SFs would feature in a documentary about the LoC- should show just what a vital role these guys in guarding the LoC, maybe given another insight into their heli-borne rapid interventions to thwart infiltration attempts.



@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Cant wait till 15th.