Indian Railways vs. Chinese Railways...

[Screambowl]

As a railway fan more than 10 years, I really need to reply.

Pls check the climate diversity of China.
Railway in Hainan Island, Qinghai-Tibet Railway, Silk Road railway, railway through extremely cold regions called Heilongjiang Province.

Pls check more, D class(200m/h), G class(300km/h), K/T/Z normal trains(less than 180km/h).
Hard seat/ hard bed/ soft bed/ 2nd class of HSR/ 1st class of HSR

So "he"
Pls check the passengers volume of Beijing-Shanghai HSR and Beijing-Shanghai flights.
If u are interested, have a look at my thread
https://defence.pk/threads/chinese-hsr-news-and-information：original-translations.363685/


Pls don't use maps only major stations are listed

China may have diverse conditions, I am not denying that, but the wear and tear due to heat and difference in temperature in the same season is vast among the cities, due to peninsular effect, in India is higher than china. In the month of May- July the average is 39 - 38 degree celcius and peak is 49-50 degrees Celsius (Mid and South India) , which causes bent in the tracks and it is tough to maintain, and as you go north towards hills, the temperature gets colder. Then comes the monsoon and temperature falls quick.

This is also the major issue which IR keeps the record of.

The high speed trains beyond 190km/hr mark is not suited for a country like India .

Normal lines and HSR
View attachment 212473 View attachment 212474 View attachment 212475

HSR network near my hometown, Wuhan
View attachment 212476

HSR network of Yangtze river delta
View attachment 212483

HSR Network of Chengdu-Chongqing clusters
View attachment 212484


Pls make an analysis of operating cost vs social benefits and economic benefits
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/extern...d/PDF/ACS97340WP0P140a0Box385238B00OUO090.pdf


Pls further reading about different technological details of HSR tracks for different climate.


OMG.....
I don't wanna say another "pls check information"

Seriously, I know Chinese railway more than any member here. I even have quite some acquisitions about Indian railway. I'm a railway fan, interested in any railway system around the world.

View attachment 212481 View attachment 212480
@Screambowl Help me find this small station in your map

You know, when one has no ideas of another stuff, one should really do more "reliable" information collection.


Pls tell me the distance and time of your Rajdhani express, and ticket fares of different classes. I'll tell you a similar route in China. And I'll make an analysis of HSR vs normal trains of the same interval.

Rajdhani takes, 16 hours to cover 1605 Kms. Including breakfast, dinner, lunch and other snacks. 1st class just 4608 rupees, second tier is around 2000 rupees, 3rd tier is 1100 rupees ( inclusive lunch breakfast and dinner). And you enjoy the journey. That's why people prefer this.

I never enjoyed any journey in ICE, or IC in german railways, it is really very boring. And if similar trains come to India , people will not like it. This is why, they haven't transformed it. Indian railway is aware of this.

The only infrastructural buildup should be the stations and track maintenance.. rest of the things are fine and people enjoy journey a lot. Unlike sitting like a machine in super fast trains, and you hear nothing.


That's why I am telling you, Indian railways is doing great and as per the requirement, it is only the station and rail maintenance which needs a proper check.

Even if they bring superfast trains, for shorter routes, only few people will board it, and the operating cost will be more than profit generation.

I agree to a large extent with @AndrewJin that railways should be public. But sarkari babus (govt workers) are also not known for giving a damn. So this is a conundrum. I think it is a matter of shift in cultural mindset. If we can build decent airports in recent years without privatization, why can't we extend the same philosophy to railways?

Another option could be a mix of public/private corridors. Just like postal/courier services. The public part focuses on providing affordable connectivity to all and small places while private part focuses on major economic corridors.

@AndrewJin I love your pics, very nice!

I don't support, the concept of high speed trains in India. It is too lame as I have seen in ICE. I travelled in Rajdhani and I would like to travel again. But ICE was too boring.

Secondly, Railways have the highest numbers of govt servant and you cannot just retire them or give it to private firm.

Only stations and maintenance of station must be given to private companies. Even Indian railways can upgrade itself, but such a big network takes years and the other reason is the cost factor. In Airport you give airport tax, do you give railway station tax in the same percentage as compared to airport? NO, because then you will be paying 1000 rupees extra for your train tickets.

 

[Jayanta]

Really nice....I think India has a lot to learn when it comes to Railway infrastructure....hope the new government will take a serious note of it. If the Chinese can so can India...may be slower..but the goal can be achieved.

 

[fallstuff]

Chinese normal trains are just like Indian railway,
View attachment 212436View attachment 212448 View attachment 212451View attachment 212452 View attachment 212453View attachment 212458


Beijing-Shanghai, G(300km/h)=5500rupees/2nd class, D(200km/h)train=3000rupees, 1300km.
Discounted air ticket fare is normally 6,000rupees-10,000rupees(another 500 rupees for fuel surcharge).
Most important, during holidays, no good discounts(more than 10,000rupees), but HSR never change.
And concerning income difference, merely comparing number is quite meaningless.

Ticket check only 15 minutes before departure, if a train which starts from the station.
Ticket check only 5-10 minutes before departure, if the station is a midway stop for a train.
(No passengers are allowed to the platform before ticket checking time)
When I take an HSR in my city, Wuhan, I generally leave home one hour before departure time of my train, including time in metro, printing my ticket which is bought from APP, security check, checking in.
HSR is 99% on time, and has frequent services. If one misses a train, one can change to the following train. (From my hometown Wuhan to Beijing,30 trains per day, 1200km, 4-5 hours; from Shanghai to Nanjing, 180 trains per day)

Normal lines&HSR lines
They are not isolated systems, interchangeable in the same station and a lot of through-serves(from normal lines to HSR lines or reversely)
View attachment 212435

HSR network
View attachment 212446

All I see is empty spaces, what a waste. the following is efficiency at its best !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Keel]

Flourescent lights
Electric fan on the ceiling
Lots of old fixed line coded analog phone sets like these
Official VTech Hotel Phones | VTech® Hotel Phones
The controller has to have pretty good eyesights looking at the upright panel
The clock on top of the display panel is digital


The Indian monitoring and control system looks something like these
Many of them are already museum displays
LARHF | Los Angeles Railroad Heritage Foundation

A Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) machine like the one used in this Depot from 1973 to 1989. Today, all of the CTC equipment and operation for the BNSF is located at its headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas.
Photo from the LARHF Collection


If you want to modernise the whole Indian railway system to China's level there is a lot of works to be done. And a lot of money for the Indians to spend

Lacquered handpainted wood panels folding screen

 

[AndrewJin]

China may have diverse conditions, I am not denying that, but the wear and tear due to heat and difference in temperature in the same season is vast among the cities, due to peninsular effect, in India is higher than china. In the month of May- July the average is 39 - 38 degree celcius and peak is 49-50 degrees Celsius (Mid and South India) , which causes bent in the tracks and it is tough to maintain, and as you go north towards hills, the temperature gets colder. Then comes the monsoon and temperature falls quick.

This is also the major issue which IR keeps the record of.

The high speed trains beyond 190km/hr mark is not suited for a country like India .




Rajdhani takes, 16 hours to cover 1605 Kms. Including breakfast, dinner, lunch and other snacks. 1st class just 4608 rupees, second tier is around 2000 rupees, 3rd tier is 1100 rupees ( inclusive lunch breakfast and dinner). And you enjoy the journey. That's why people prefer this.

I never enjoyed any journey in ICE, or IC in german railways, it is really very boring. And if similar trains come to India , people will not like it. This is why, they haven't transformed it. Indian railway is aware of this.

The only infrastructural buildup should be the stations and track maintenance.. rest of the things are fine and people enjoy journey a lot. Unlike sitting like a machine in super fast trains, and you hear nothing.


That's why I am telling you, Indian railways is doing great and as per the requirement, it is only the station and rail maintenance which needs a proper check.

Even if they bring superfast trains, for shorter routes, only few people will board it, and the operating cost will be more than profit generation.



I don't support, the concept of high speed trains in India. It is too lame as I have seen in ICE. I travelled in Rajdhani and I would like to travel again. But ICE was too boring.

Secondly, Railways have the highest numbers of govt servant and you cannot just retire them or give it to private firm.

Only stations and maintenance of station must be given to private companies. Even Indian railways can upgrade itself, but such a big network takes years and the other reason is the cost factor. In Airport you give airport tax, do you give railway station tax in the same percentage as compared to airport? NO, because then you will be paying 1000 rupees extra for your train tickets.

hi, thanks for your information.
I'm now waiting for my train in Hankou Railway Station(a normal station of normal trains and HSR; Wuhan City has three major stations, one exclusively for HSR, another two is Hankou and Wuchang. now is 10:00am, my train will departs 10:19 still waiting for check in
(I'll give u similar service to the train u mentioned when I settle down in Shanghai)

9:44 The underground floor, metro and one entrance of station(not the main entrance) and food plaza, ticket office

9:46am Printing tickets bought with APP or online, or buy ticket with cash or credit card

9:48 The underground entrance, mainly for subway

9:51 Ground floor(main entrance), ticket office, vip room

9:53 Waiting room, food plaza

Screen of information（departure time, which platform, on time or not, etc). It says the first train has stopped check in and second/third train are checking. Train k1202 is late. D3088 is my train bound for Shanghai Hongqiao.

Check in (10:05)

Platform(10:08)

 

[AndrewJin]

Now, 10:15, radio announce check in stops.

10:16

10:18one minute before departure
Al full and some standing

10:19, leave on time

 

[AndrewJin]

Today's, my train D3088(Hankou Station to Shanghai Hongqiao) takes 6h 10 minutes(810-850km). It's not a 300-350km/h HSR, but a max.200km/h D-series train, stops at 12 midway stations. Mine seat is second class.

For tomorrow(Wed.), there are 24 D trains from Wuhan(from three stations in Wuhan) to Shanghai, from 5 hours to 6 hours(10-15 stops). Another 3 G-train( full HSR, 4 hours).

About normal night trains, 7 services for tomorrow night( leaves at night and arrives in the morning), 10-13 hours (on the old line, 1200km).


Ticket fares. ( pls consider different income level)
D Train, 2500 rupees for second class, 3400 for first class

G train, 3000/3400 rupees for 2nd/1st class

Normal train(K T Z trains are the same even their speed is 120, 140 and 160 kph respectively, all with A/C)
hard seat 1400 rupees
Hard bed(similar to 3berth in India, but better bedding and larger space)
2500/2600/2700 for lower middle and upper berth
Soft bed(deluxe, I've never tried) 4000 rupees, similar to 2berth in India
Deluxe soft bed(with private toilet and bathing) limited devices, not on this line
Flight ticket one week later next Wednesday ( I don't think it fair to post tomorrow's prices) is

What a train is comprised of?
A 16-car normal train is normally 8-12 cars for hard seat, 6-10 cars for hard bed, 1-2 for soft bed
A 16-car D/G train is mostly of 2-4 first class and the rest for second class.

For people's choice and preference of passengers of different incomes, pls check the reports which are available in World Bank database if your are really interested. I've read a lot about Indian railway and viewed a lot of travelogues about railway experiences written buy Chinese or westerners. Although I've never been to India, I think I have some basic acquisitions about it. And I've written a lot of articles in Chinese about Indian railway which centre on what Chinese can learn from India rather than the filth and chaos presented inof those photos.

4G signals of the mountainous regions are not stable especially on this line with more than 80% of this Shanghai-Chengdu railway is tunnels and bridges. So I could give you more dates and details, only some easily extracted from my railway booking APP.

Mountainous region of border between Hubei Province and Anhui Province, some national-level poverty counties. This HSR has considerably promoted local economy and facilitate locals' life, preventing them from overpriced long-distance coach and inaccessibility to airplane.

Jinzhai County, Dabieshan Range
View attachment 212573
View attachment 212574View attachment 212575
My car is half second lass and half dining coach.

The second intermediate stop, Lu'an, a prefecture-level city, another CRH380A model
View attachment 212577

 

[AndrewJin]

Flourescent lights
Electric fan on the ceiling
Lots of old fixed line coded analog phone sets like these
Official VTech Hotel Phones | VTech® Hotel Phones
The controller has to have pretty good eyesights looking at the upright panel
The clock on top of the display panel is digital


The Indian monitoring and control system looks something like these
Many of them are already museum displays
LARHF | Los Angeles Railroad Heritage Foundation

A Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) machine like the one used in this Depot from 1973 to 1989. Today, all of the CTC equipment and operation for the BNSF is located at its headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas.
Photo from the LARHF Collection


If you want to modernise the whole Indian railway system to China's level there is a lot of works to be done. And a lot of money for the Indians to spend

Lacquered handpainted wood panels folding screen

I think the pivotal strategies for them are upgrading existing railway systems to at least the level of Chinese normal trains and meanwhile, have some study about future HSR which is now too expensive given their low governmental budget. Especially for their signal systems and central controlling systems, their deadly train accidents are a little bit too frequent compared to the rest of the world.

 

[Screambowl]

Now, 10:15, radio announce check in stops.
View attachment 212533

10:16
View attachment 212535
View attachment 212536

10:18one minute before departure
Al full and some standing
View attachment 212537View attachment 212538

10:19, leave on time
View attachment 212539

Nice photos, I liked the stations. I actually say that IR must work towards upgrading stations. But our trains are fine.

Today's, my train D3088(Hankou Station to Shanghai Hongqiao) takes 6h 10 minutes(810-850km). It's not a 300-350km/h HSR, but a max.200km/h D-series train, stops at 12 midway stations. Mine seat is second class.

For tomorrow(Wed.), there are 24 D trains from Wuhan(from three stations in Wuhan) to Shanghai, from 5 hours to 6 hours(10-15 stops). Another 3 G-train( full HSR, 4 hours).

About normal night trains, 7 services for tomorrow night( leaves at night and arrives in the morning), 10-13 hours (on the old line, 1200km).


Ticket fares. ( pls consider different income level)
D Train, 2500 rupees for second class, 3400 for first class

G train, 3000/3400 rupees for 2nd/1st class

Normal train(K T Z trains are the same even their speed is 120, 140 and 160 kph respectively, all with A/C)
hard seat 1400 rupees
Hard bed(similar to 3berth in India, but better bedding and larger space)
2500/2600/2700 for lower middle and upper berth
Soft bed(deluxe, I've never tried) 4000 rupees, similar to 2berth in India
Deluxe soft bed(with private toilet and bathing) limited devices, not on this line
Flight ticket one week later next Wednesday ( I don't think it fair to post tomorrow's prices) is

What a train is comprised of?
A 16-car normal train is normally 8-12 cars for hard seat, 6-10 cars for hard bed, 1-2 for soft bed
A 16-car D/G train is mostly of 2-4 first class and the rest for second class.

For people's choice and preference of passengers of different incomes, pls check the reports which are available in World Bank database if your are really interested. I've read a lot about Indian railway and viewed a lot of travelogues about railway experiences written buy Chinese or westerners. Although I've never been to India, I think I have some basic acquisitions about it. And I've written a lot of articles in Chinese about Indian railway which centre on what Chinese can learn from India rather than the filth and chaos presented inof those photos.

4G signals of the mountainous regions are not stable especially on this line with more than 80% of this Shanghai-Chengdu railway is tunnels and bridges. So I could give you more dates and details, only some easily extracted from my railway booking APP.

Mountainous region of border between Hubei Province and Anhui Province, some national-level poverty counties. This HSR has considerably promoted local economy and facilitate locals' life, preventing them from overpriced long-distance coach and inaccessibility to airplane.

The price is almost the double buddy, high plus no food inclusive(I suppose), even if the person is from high earning class. And that's the basic difference between Indian passenger and a Chinese passenger.

I think the pivotal strategies for them are upgrading existing railway systems to at least the level of Chinese normal trains and meanwhile, have some study about future HSR which is now too expensive given their low governmental budget. Especially for their signal systems and central controlling systems, their deadly train accidents are a little bit too frequent compared to the rest of the world.

It is not actually the budget which is the problem, it is basically the operation. It will not earn the profit in India.

 

[Keel]

I think the pivotal strategies for them are upgrading existing railway systems to at least the level of Chinese normal trains and meanwhile, have some study about future HSR which is now too expensive given their low governmental budget. Especially for their signal systems and central controlling systems, their deadly train accidents are a little bit too frequent compared to the rest of the world.

Are you texting on the train?

It is their problems. They wont thank you even if you give them advice

Read #25 here (actually there was another similar one #37 but was somehow deleted)
AAD Test Fails "Missile falls down,catches fire immediately after its take off" | Page 2

Chinese Print-Art Painting

 

[Screambowl]

If you want to modernise the whole Indian railway system to China's level there is a lot of works to be done. And a lot of money for the Indians to spend

Lacquered handpainted wood panels folding screen

We just want to mordenize our stations as european design with Indian style, and of chinese capacity to handle passengers, the CTC is already under modernization. Trains are doing well.

 

[Indian Patriot]

Rajdhani takes, 16 hours to cover 1605 Kms. Including breakfast, dinner, lunch and other snacks. 1st class just 4608 rupees, second tier is around 2000 rupees, 3rd tier is 1100 rupees ( inclusive lunch breakfast and dinner). And you enjoy the journey. That's why people prefer this.

I never enjoyed any journey in ICE, or IC in german railways, it is really very boring. And if similar trains come to India , people will not like it. This is why, they haven't transformed it. Indian railway is aware of this.

The only infrastructural buildup should be the stations and track maintenance.. rest of the things are fine and people enjoy journey a lot. Unlike sitting like a machine in super fast trains, and you hear nothing.


That's why I am telling you, Indian railways is doing great and as per the requirement, it is only the station and rail maintenance which needs a proper check.

Even if they bring superfast trains, for shorter routes, only few people will board it, and the operating cost will be more than profit generation.

There is a fine line between being patriotic and being dumb. Please stop your comments already.

Talking about India. Have you heard of low-budget Indian airlines? If you are a smart traveller and plan your tickets in advance then the cost of a flight ticket in these budge class airlines is significantly lesser than First Class Rajdhani ticket. In fact if you are lucky then your flight ticket will cost you only 300 more than Rajdhani Second Class ticket.

So according to your logic there is no need for high-speed/super-fast trains like Rajdhani, because people who are willing to spend 4600 rupees for a railway ticket should go by air. It takes 16 hours in Rajdhani to cover 1600 km, it will take you hardly more than 2 hours to cover 1600 km by air.

And in case you did not know Rajdhani connects Delhi with other cities. You cannot take a Rajdhani from Mumbai to Bangalore. So what are those people supposed to do, go in smelly, overcrowded wagons that are in service in India?

You did not enjoy German railways that is your headache. You are nobody to speak for others. If people like you had their say then Delhi Metro would not have started. Today Delhi metro services are at par with any other metro service including London and New York, bet you didn't know that. Why would you, the more smelly and dirty the train the more you feel at home in them. Delhi Metro was expensive to build but the service provided is first class and the fares are very cheap and affordable.

Abe what is the logic that people won't like faster, smoother travel? Why would not people like faster travel? Traveling from Connaught Place to Gurgaon would take you 2 hours by road if you are lucky, In metro it takes hardly 30-40 minutes at the maximum. Today people in Delhi can commute from Gurgaon-Noida on a daily basis without feeling tired thanks to super-fast Metros. So what is wrong if the same system is applied in railways where people can commute from Chennai to Bangalore on a daily basis using the railways? Why are you so allergic to modernity and improvement?

"Sitting like a machine and hear nothing" Are you fcuking nuts? What next, you want to put your head out of the window, sit at the foot board of the coach, smoke a cigarette as the train crosses by? Are you a teenager? Idle past times for you are more important than saving time and money? The Delhi metro is underground in most phases, meaning you won't see anything except dark walls. According to your logic Delhi Metro should be banned because there is no scenery to watch.

If you wanna hear stuff then buy a fcuking I-Pod, and if you want to enjoy scenery then either plan a road holiday like backpackers do or buy a Rs. 100,000 railway ticket from Deccan quick that specialises in romantic railway journeys.

It is very scary and disturbing that people with your mentality exist in India. For you a bullcok cart or a tractor ride is more romantic than a BMW sedan.

 

[AndrewJin]

Are you texting on the train?

It is their problems. They wont thank you even if you give them advice

Read #25 here (actually there was another similar one #37 but was somehow deleted)
AAD Test Fails "Missile falls down,catches fire immediately after its take off" | Page 2

Chinese Print-Art Painting

Yep, My train has just left Nanjing South.

Really crowded, not so comfortable actually, many passengers are standing at the connection.
After leaving mountainous regions, 4 G signals are much better!
Bejing Bank at Nanjing! Haha!

 

[AndrewJin]

We have 18 big railway bureaus.Beijing railway bureau is one of them.

Today, my train(belongs Wuhan Railway Bureau) is from Wuhan to where is under administration of Shanghai Bureau! Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou are top3, we got to learn from them.

 

[Screambowl]

There is a fine line between being patriotic and being dumb. Please stop your comments already.

Talking about India. Have you heard of low-budget Indian airlines? If you are a smart traveller and plan your tickets in advance then the cost of a flight ticket in these budge class airlines is significantly lesser than First Class Rajdhani ticket. In fact if you are lucky then your flight ticket will cost you only 300 more than Rajdhani Second Class ticket.

So according to your logic there is no need for high-speed/super-fast trains like Rajdhani, because people who are willing to spend 4600 rupees for a railway ticket should go by air. It takes 16 hours in Rajdhani to cover 1600 km, it will take you hardly more than 2 hours to cover 1600 km by air.

And in case you did not know Rajdhani connects Delhi with other cities. You cannot take a Rajdhani from Mumbai to Bangalore. So what are those people supposed to do, go in smelly, overcrowded wagons that are in service in India?

You did not enjoy German railways that is your headache. You are nobody to speak for others. If people like you had their say then Delhi Metro would not have started. Today Delhi metro services are at par with any other metro service including London and New York, bet you didn't know that. Why would you, the more smelly and dirty the train the more you feel at home in them. Delhi Metro was expensive to build but the service provided is first class and the fares are very cheap and affordable.

Abe what is the logic that people won't like faster, smoother travel? Why would not people like faster travel? Traveling from Connaught Place to Gurgaon would take you 2 hours by road if you are lucky, In metro it takes hardly 30-40 minutes at the maximum. Today people in Delhi can commute from Gurgaon-Noida on a daily basis without feeling tired thanks to super-fast Metros. So what is wrong if the same system is applied in railways where people can commute from Chennai to Bangalore on a daily basis using the railways? Why are you so allergic to modernity and improvement?

"Sitting like a machine and hear nothing" Are you fcuking nuts? What next, you want to put your head out of the window, sit at the foot board of the coach, smoke a cigarette as the train crosses by? Are you a teenager? Idle past times for you are more important than saving time and money? The Delhi metro is underground in most phases, meaning you won't see anything except dark walls. According to your logic Delhi Metro should be banned because there is no scenery to watch.

If you wanna hear stuff then buy a fcuking I-Pod, and if you want to enjoy scenery then either plan a road holiday like backpackers do or buy a Rs. 100,000 railway ticket from Deccan quick that specialises in romantic railway journeys.

It is very scary and disturbing that people with your mentality exist in India. For you a bullcok cart or a tractor ride is more romantic than a BMW sedan.

It's like I say, the wire has current, but you say let me experience. And then you get a shock. IR is aware that, HSR is NOT profitable. The operating cost is very high and who will pay for this? You want subsidy even in that I am sure!

You have money, you will travel but only to experience, but IR is not running on the money of people like you, but lower middle class people from villages.

And FYI, our all engines are capable for operating at 190km/hr, but the tracks are not as compatible with them. I have done my project on IR. I am in favour of upgrading track to operate at 190km/hr maximum not beyond that.

When you book your air ticket in advance, the tax does not get reduced.

Duronto is there from intercities, and they operate at 120+km/hr , what's wrong in that? You can increase their speed to 150km/hr. And FYI, Chinese High speed rail is not to connect cities like Changsa and Nanchang. For that they have normal operating trains. You want Rajdhani in every city? Well from Bangalore to Madras, a Shatabdi can be proposed.

Yep, My train has just left Nanjing South. View attachment 212597
View attachment 212596

Really crowded, not so comfortable actually, many passengers are standing at the connection.
After leaving mountainous regions, 4 G signals are much better!
Bejing Bank at Nanjing! Haha!
View attachment 212598
View attachment 212599

Why so many stops? wht's the operating speed? 190km/hr?