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[Nilgiri]

This article says yogis name was finalized or a top contender even before the elections. I take that with a pinch of salt, if that were so, then why more than a week to name him as CM? His name should have come out within hours especially in a leaky society like ours. There is absolutely no benefit in waiting so long. Goa CM candidate came out within hours, there was dead silence in UP.

You are talking about the same media that were braying (to the end) that there would be a hung verdict because of demonetisation? Their information streams to you the reader are not accurate or neutral at all.

Please remember that before you quote any supposed information chain (and thus any supposed leaks)....esp regarding politics.

His name was always in the hat if you went past the media veneer (which were hoping for some hail mary, no matter how desperate). Anyone could see it through his participation in the rallies....and general presence and recognition within UP across caste/class lines.

There was another article (also in times group) that came out earlier which stated that Modi/shah were arm twisted into choosing Yogi whose name was NOT being considered. And they were FORCED to chose him because of the political ramifications of a disgruntled Yogi running wild in 2019. So who to believe?

Times group....media. Rest is thus suspect. 90% of Media politics is a) what gossip is going around b) how to portray that gossip to make the most short term money....when really that should be the 10%.

So some gossip will end up being right, some will end up being wrong. But if you know how to gauge past the media projection/speculation....then the choice of yogi is not surprising at all (and this is now surfacing in the media as well....in a "we actually meant it this way" kind of fashion). Shameless creatures to the core most of them.

I agree with you that the UP beuroacracy needs to be fixed, so why not chose someone with a minimum of administrative experience?

Already answered that. Large administrative experience is good when you want to reform it. UP literally has nothing to reform. Hence burn and start anew is name of the game here. Thats why those with the administrative experience are better off not being the face, but being delegated to get their hands dirty in a big way behind the scenes (in formation/building afresh)...their time would largely be wasted being a CM (which sets overall high level policy rather than micromanage implementation).

What has yogi actually achieved in his constituency? Not a lot as far as I can see.

An MP can only do so much esp if there is no real cooperation/backing from the state leadership (given politics and aimless corrupt bureaucracy entrenched in UP). Find me one MP in UP that has achieved anything to be used as reference to prove me wrong.

Manoj Sinha meanwhile did have the administrative capability. I'm not sure what you mean by firebrands are better when the ratio is bad. The ratio is not all that great nationally either.

And thus Manoj Sinha (and the others) will be employed in that capability better....by not being CM.

The ratio is far better nationally than UP....even at the start of modi rule in 2014 (given the sum total of India's IAS etc come from all around the country and not just UP). Hence Modi could channel, divert and replace bureaucrats in focus areas from top to bottom essentially...based on merit and performance. There is essentially clay there to work with and shape into a pitcher that can hold water...and Modi didnt need to really slash and burn anything to begin with.

This clay is not even present in UP, its basically a muddy slop. Hence potters (administrators) are better used as 2nd and 3rd in charge etc....with 1st in command being someone that gets the stick out and beats the crap out of those that created this slop (and prevent anything else from taking shape by flooding this cesspool with goons/thugs/criminals) so there is actual physical room for potters to do their work. This is essentially why low order delivery based bureaucracy has been such a nightmare (and stagnant) in UP and Bihar....even compared to Indian average (which is pretty bad overall in global terms but at least improving now).

No, choosing Yogi is sending out a message, a centuries old medieval message.

Just like it was said with Modi pre (and even post) 2014....by the same quarters. Sad to see you have feel for their spiel this time. But I know you are a good enough person to change your perception when you see the facts and evidence materialise over time on the ground. Give it some time and Yogi a chance.

 

[PlugnPlay]

I did read this. I have a couple of issues though.

This article says yogis name was finalized or a top contender even before the elections. I take that with a pinch of salt, if that were so, then why more than a week to name him as CM? His name should have come out within hours especially in a leaky society like ours. There is absolutely no benefit in waiting so long. Goa CM candidate came out within hours, there was dead silence in UP.

What you do not realise is that it takes time to choose the member of UP cabinet from 325 MLC's. To review in detail that list of 325 MLC's takes a few days. To get the IB report about identified candidates etc. Govt. formation is not a joke.

It takes time to choose dy. CM's too, considering the relative youth of Yogi (44 years- younger than Rahul Gandhi ), his relative inexperience and the Humongous size of UP state.

In Goa, there was no such confusion. Manohar Parrikar is much loved and respected by the average goan, pretty much everybody wanted him without any ambiguity.

There was another article (also in times group) that came out earlier which stated that Modi/shah were arm twisted into choosing Yogi whose name was NOT being considered. And they were FORCED to chose him because of the political ramifications of a disgruntled Yogi running wild in 2019. So who to believe?

Believe you eyes, what do you see ?

Modi took sanyas as the age of 18, Yogi took sanyas at the age of 22 and became an MP at 26 and has dedicated his entire life to the public. Do you really think Modi will not respect and appreciate him ? or even love him ? see a part of him in Yogi ?

I agree with you that the UP beuroacracy needs to be fixed, so why not chose someone with a minimum of administrative experience? What has yogi actually achieved in his constituency? Not a lot as far as I can see. Manoj Sinha meanwhile did have the administrative capability. I'm not sure what you mean by firebrands are better when the ratio is bad. The ratio is not all that great nationally either.

Yogi Adityanath is a Self Made Man and also the Head Mahant of Goraknath Temple. That means he also runs the entire Mutt, one of the larges in India.

He also administers the various schools under the mutt. He also administers a Hospital.

If that was not enough he is also a 5 time MP and has been dealing with the state and central Administration for Many Many years.

Now compared to all this how much experience did Akhilesh have ?

No, choosing Yogi is sending out a message, a centuries old medieval message.

I actually wrote out some of my objections in the other thread. P17, I think. I left the thread when a bunch of Pakistanis came in firing all guns and defending Hafiz Saeed (the one of "insufficient evidence" fame) and insulting Hinduism. What the duffers fail to realize is that by acting that way they validate the albeit medieval reasoning behind the choice of Yogi.

Anyway all I can say is that I wish the best for UP.

UP lives in Medieval times. There are proper factories that manufacture illegal guns.

This is the reality of UP,

You want to command respect in UP and not get killed, you either become a Loud mouth fire brand leader or you carry a Gun and have a bunch of thugs carrying guns. I think I rather like the First option.

You are speaking from an ivory tower without understanding the ground realities of UP. That is all I can say.

 

[Sky lord]

@Nilgiri you can't have it both ways. You referred me to a media article to read and understand the rationale behind yogis selection, when I point to another media article that says the opposite - you say "don't believe the media" - so believe only what you believe? Hehe

@PlugnPlay - you may have a point about the "ivory tower" I have never been to UP except to Agra to see the Taj . This was quite a while ago, and honestly I was shocked at how dirty the place was. Whole houses rose out of the trash, nobody picks up litter in those parts. No offense to anyone, I am (perhaps tactlessly) , saying what I saw.

So let's wait and see how it all turns out. Good day!

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri you can't have it both ways. You referred me to a media article to read and understand the rationale behind yogis selection, when I point to another media article that says the opposite - you say "don't believe the media" - so believe only what you believe? Hehe

Like I said here:

So some gossip will end up being right, some will end up being wrong.

Throw enough darts, some will end up on the bullseye.

Media as an overall institution though has a very poor strike rate nowadays.

Its not India-specific though.

 

[PlugnPlay]

@PlugnPlay - you may have a point about the "ivory tower" I have never been to UP except to Agra to see the Taj . This was quite a while ago, and honestly I was shocked at how dirty the place was. Whole houses rose out of the trash, nobody picks up litter in those parts. No offense to anyone, I am (perhaps tactlessly) , saying what I saw, I don't mean any affront to feelings. Hopefully it has changed now.

So let's wait and see how it all turns out. Good day!

I am currently visiting UP, and here being polite is considered a sign of weakness, and hence to be exploited.

To give a small example, I smiled and spoke politely to a popular chat waala and asked for chat (classic south Indian style), while another man walked him and ordered the chat rudely and loudly. The chat waala served the other man first and give him extra topping while I got the chat last and with a leaky plate.

Example 2: I was sitting in my car with my driver waiting for someone, and another car parked itself RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, blocking my exit. And it was driven by a well dressed and obviously educated man. When I raised my eyebrows, he just smirked and walked away.

I have seen simple road accidents which swelled into a mob right in front of my eyes. A bike hit a car and each of them got out and started shouting at each other. pulled out their mobiles and started calling up people. Soon a bunch of new guys arrived in their respective bikes and cars and the matter escalated. I did not wait to see how it ended.

In UP it does not pay to be polite. One thumb rule in UP is EVERYBODY is FAKE. They will Lie to you without reason, they have no etiquette or manners. They will bend down and touch your feet and then abuse you behind your back.

To run such a state in an advanced state of social decay, decent soft men will not cut it. That is why Rajnath singh was such a failure.

 

[Josef K]

I have never been to UP except to Agra to see the Taj . This was quite a while ago, and honestly I was shocked at how dirty the place was. Whole houses rose out of the trash, nobody picks up litter in those parts. No offense to anyone, I am (perhaps tactlessly) , saying what I saw.

This doesn't add to the discussion, but I must say this. The first time I was in UP, to me it felt underdeveloped compared to even the rural most parts of Tamil Nadu. I had reached Lucknow by air and even without entering the city, straight out of the airport I was going to Allahabad by taxi. My first actual stop in UP was Rae Bareli en route to Allahabad. The most pathetic place I've ever visited in India. All thanks to the Gandhi family and the people who unfailingly vote them into power (I also passed through Kunda, but didn't stop). Later when I was telling this to my UP friend, he admitted, it has more to do with his own state's people who vote on the basis of caste, for sops and such. Let's hope Yogi does something good.

 

[Ashesh]

Imandar Sarkar.

https://twitter.com/x/status/843780735693668352

 

[Ashesh]

https://twitter.com/x/status/843792382063759364

 

[Ashesh]

https://twitter.com/x/status/843802423328149504

 

[Sky lord]

This doesn't add to the discussion, but I must say this. The first time I was in UP, to me it felt underdeveloped compared to even the rural most parts of Tamil Nadu. I had reached Lucknow by air and even without entering the city, straight out of the airport I was going to Allahabad by taxi. My first actual stop in UP was Rae Bareli en route to Allahabad. The most pathetic place I've ever visited in India. All thanks to the Gandhi family and the people who unfailingly vote them into power (I also passed through Kunda, but didn't stop). Later when I was telling this to my UP friend, he admitted, it has more to do with his own state's people who vote on the basis of caste, for sops and such. Let's hope Yogi does something good.

Have you ever had a chance to read VS Naipaul 'India , a wounded civilization" ? In it he puts up that India as a civilization was ravaged over the years and declined to a state of barbarism. All that was left of a once enlightened civilization were superstitions and religious veneer, The next book was "a million mutinies" in which he describes people climbing out of that barbarism. These books were written almost half a century ago.

Perhaps, that is what happened here. Bihar and UP were once the center of Indian civilization and now the most backward and barbaric parts, while the periphery has been rising. This could be the people's wish to try and reclaim that vaguely remembered past....to go back to roots.

I only hope that they envision a modern 21st century version of what it means to be Indian, not the version of the Middle Ages.

 

[Ashesh]

https://twitter.com/x/status/843764413270294529

Shocking. 24 hrs since his oath and Adityanath hasn't resolved the law and order problems in a small town like UP.

 

[PlugnPlay]

Have you ever had a chance to read VS Naipaul 'India , a wounded civilization" ? In it he puts up that India as a civilization was ravaged over the years and declined to a state of barbarism. All that was left of a once enlightened civilization were superstitions and religious veneer, The next book was "a million mutinies" in which he describes people climbing out of that barbarism. These books were written almost half a century ago.

Perhaps, that is what happened here. Bihar and UP were once the center of Indian civilization and now the most backward and barbaric parts, while the periphery has been rising. This could be the people's wish to try and reclaim that vaguely remembered past....to go back to roots.

I only hope that they envision a modern 21st century version of what it means to be Indian, not the version of the Middle Ages.

Society thrive when there is law and order, when justice is done, when women are safe and when opportunity and Freedom exist.

Its not that UP has forgotten it civilisation roots, its just not practical to be civilised in a jungle.

If you restore law and order back, UP and Bihar has the potential to bounce back very quickly and I am sure it will in a decade or so. (provided there is good stable govt. in the state and center).

 

[Ashesh]

https://twitter.com/x/status/843811569632923648

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

I am currently visiting UP, and here being polite is considered a sign of weakness, and hence to be exploited.

To give a small example, I smiled and spoke politely to a popular chat waala and asked for chat (classic south Indian style), while another man walked him and ordered the chat rudely and loudly. The chat waala served the other man first and give him extra topping while I got the chat last and with a leaky plate.

Example 2: I was sitting in my car with my driver waiting for someone, and another car parked itself RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, blocking my exit. And it was driven by a well dressed and obviously educated man. When I raised my eyebrows, he just smirked and walked away.

I have seen simple road accidents which swelled into a mob right in front of my eyes. A bike hit a car and each of them got out and started shouting at each other. pulled out their mobiles and started calling up people. Soon a bunch of new guys arrived in their respective bikes and cars and the matter escalated. I did not wait to see how it ended.

In UP it does not pay to be polite. One thumb rule in UP is EVERYBODY is FAKE. They will Lie to you without reason, they have no etiquette or manners. They will bend down and touch your feet and then abuse you behind your back.

To run such a state in an advanced state of social decay, decent soft men will not cut it. That is why Rajnath singh was such a failure.

I would suggest that there is a thin line on where to be polite and rude in UP/Bihar- Talk sense in a commanding voice you don't have to be rude- sometimes being rude means an unnecessary squabble or even a fight-

 

[Ashesh]

अटल जी मोदी और योगी को देखकर सोचता हूं कि बिना बीवी वाला आदमी ही कामयाबी के शिखर को छूता है लेकिन राहुल को देखकर वापस चुपचाप बैठ जाता हूँ!

https://twitter.com/x/status/843818819391045632