Indian navy's Project 17-A

[Major Shaitan Singh]

By 2020 the Indian Navy surface combatant fleet will be

■3 carriers
■10 destroyers [ 3 Delhi + 3 Kolkata 15A + 4 Project 15B]
■24 frigates [9 Krivak + 3 Brahmaputra + 3 Shivalik + 7 Project 17A + 2 Project 17B]
■20 Corvettes [ includes 12 Project 28 and 28A ]

There could be as many as 34 submarines in total by 2020, while the Kilo's and 209's will be retired before 2025

■3 ATV SSBN
■3 ATV SSGN/SSN
■2 Akula II improved
■6 U214 / S-80 / Marlin / Amur 1850 (Procurement under discussion)
■6 Scorpene
■10 Kilo Improved
■4 U-209

In the FORCE November 2008 issue the Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition stated "a total of 7 destroyers, 13 frigates..." as the major warship construction that would have been accomplished by 2022. That would indicate (3 P15A + 4 P15B} destroyers and {3 Krivaks + 3 P17 + 7 P17A} frigates. Interviews of senior Indian navy officials in the December 2008 issue of FORCE talk of future warship construction projects, with the seven Project 15B DDGs and seven Project 17A FFGs clealy identified. The Improved Krivaks are of imported origin and do not form part of the domestic warship construction package. That still leaves a shortfall of six yet-to-be-built FFGs and this void is to be filled by an additional 3 Project 1135.6 FFGs to add to the six, plus ordering an additional three more Project 17 FFGs as a Batch 2 package.

Can anyone come up with difference between Pakistan and India Project 17 (do they have any)

 

[Kinetic]

By 2020 the Indian Navy surface combatant fleet will be

■3 carriers
■10 destroyers [ 3 Delhi + 3 Kolkata 15A + 4 Project 15B]
■24 frigates [9 Krivak + 3 Brahmaputra + 3 Shivalik + 7 Project 17A + 2 Project 17B]
■20 Corvettes [ includes 12 Project 28 and 28A ]

There could be as many as 34 submarines in total by 2020, while the Kilo's and 209's will be retired before 2025

■3 ATV SSBN
■3 ATV SSGN/SSN
■2 Akula II improved
■6 U214 / S-80 / Marlin / Amur 1850 (Procurement under discussion)
■6 Scorpene
■10 Kilo Improved
■4 U-209

In the FORCE November 2008 issue the Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition stated "a total of 7 destroyers, 13 frigates..." as the major warship construction that would have been accomplished by 2022. That would indicate (3 P15A + 4 P15B} destroyers and {3 Krivaks + 3 P17 + 7 P17A} frigates. Interviews of senior Indian navy officials in the December 2008 issue of FORCE talk of future warship construction projects, with the seven Project 15B DDGs and seven Project 17A FFGs clealy identified. The Improved Krivaks are of imported origin and do not form part of the domestic warship construction package. That still leaves a shortfall of six yet-to-be-built FFGs and this void is to be filled by an additional 3 Project 1135.6 FFGs to add to the six, plus ordering an additional three more Project 17 FFGs as a Batch 2 package.

Can anyone come up with difference between Pakistan and India Project 17 (do they have any)

Major saab except carriers all other ship numbers are underestimated because all these projects are to be completed by 2015/16. In last 2/3 years they have taken may new projects so the should order more.

 

[typhoon77]

There could be as many as 34 submarines in total by 2020, while the Kilo's and 209's will be retired before 2025

Those numbers are way too optimistic. India won't have anywhere near that number by 2020. I don't think India can have six fully operational nuclear submarines in 9 years. They haven't even laid down the hulls for the others besides the arihant and one other. The scorpenes are delayed, the new sub tender hasn't progressed much. If the navy was truly serious they would forget the global tender and pick two to three submarines (U-214, Amur, Scorpene) and decide between them. Adding other subs like S-80, marlin just makes the process a lot longer and adds to infrastructure costs. The navy should also double the scorpene order, it already has the infrastructure/production line set up, might as well make use of it.

 

[IND151]

INDIA MUST HAVE AT LEAST 40 SHIPS LIKE THIS.

 

[typhoon77]

I will be happy if they go for larger Swordship type ship from DCNS. With one billion+ per ship I think they can fit lots of weapons and sensors.

As unconventional as the design is the swordfish has some impressive specs, looks great for a stealth frigate. Probably would be too expensive to build though. I thought that India was going to have the stealth tech from Sweden's visby corvettes incorporated or was that just another internet rumor.
A larger (stretched) Swordfish would be more realistic for the P-15B destroyers. As long as the stretched version could house 128 VLS tubes or even fewer PVLS tubes it would be a great stealth destroyer. But this is never going to happen, hopefully there will be major work done to the superstructure of the P-15 otherwise it can't legitimately be considered a stealth destroyer.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Does anyone else find the fact that the Project-17A project is going on almost simultaneously to the class it SUCCEDS Project 17 (Shivlaik class) it is good for IN as they get their ships much faster but it is CERTAINLY odd as normally replacement classes come many years after the last ships of that class have been finished. The Shivlak class has only 1 of its projected 10 atm. Any reason for this?? Floors in design?? Emerging tech?? What?? Particularly given these are going to be VERY expensive ships (both classes) $800 mil easy each, making them almost comparable with US $1bn EACH!!! (Ticonderoga class cruiser) I suppose it shows IN is really comparable with ANY modern Navy out there . In terms of innovation, not like the rip-offs the PLAN are rung around with!!

It could only be better if IN spent same money on equipping these state-of-the-art ships with similary advanced and capable airborne assets (helos) any info on this last I heard it was around 16 only but surely that's not enough to replace ALL Sea King and Chetaks??

It is really amazing the IN is willing to spend $800 MILLION on a ship and give it a 30 year old helo to fly off it!!

Sadly this is the same with all armed forces though:

IAF- $100 MILLION on Su 30MKI, still has hundreds of vintage Chetaks and Chetahs flying around (although they did "upgrade" some to "Chetaals"!! WTF!!??)
Similar story with army , although it is the least well funded of the armed forces, even though come on!!!!!!

 

[typhoon77]

Particularly given these are going to be VERY expensive ships (both classes) $800 mil easy each, making them almost comparable with US $1bn EACH!!! (Ticonderoga class cruiser) I suppose it shows IN is really comparable with ANY modern Navy out there

Doesn't that price include parts and maintenance for the ships entire life?

 

[angeldemon_007]

@typhoon77
As unconventional as the design is the swordfish has some impressive specs, looks great for a stealth frigate. Probably would be too expensive to build though.
Look I agree it would be expensive but let me assure you it won't be that expensive. India acknowledges it and thats why she alloted a lot of money for this project $9.23 billion( $1.3 billion per ship). Secondly why do you think India decided to make all the 7 ships in India. I know TOT improves the capability of our shipyards, but there is one more reason, it reduces the cost to a great extent.
I thought that India was going to have the stealth tech from Sweden's visby corvettes incorporated or was that just another internet rumor.
There are a lot of confusion but now they are slowly and slowly clearing b/c govt. does not share much with public. Sweden's visby is actually considered for project 28a(7 corvettes to be designed), project 28 is still continuing at a good speed, they will use these tech for the last two of project 28 corvettes also (4 corvettes in p28).
For P17a, I think DCNS will win. They have even tie up with Gardenshipyard which is one of the shipyard to work on project 17a, second shipyard is MDL which already has long standing relationship with DCNS because of scorpene project. Good move by DCNS and I also vote for them because they are really good.

I don't think India can have six fully operational nuclear submarines in 9 years.
I know your assessment is based on what basis. Believe me, we are also too upset because of these delays. But India has already made 1st sub and by 2020 all of them can be easily made. Actually they should be made by 2015, but agreeing to you i have added 5 more years to the timeline and thats why i am saying 2020.
There could be as many as 34 submarines in total by 2020
He just forgot to remove those ships which would be decommissioned during these years. Some people say the target is 22 but i am also not sure about this target. But yeah India will have 6 Arihant class nuke sub + 1 akula class sub(leased from Russia)= 7 nuke sub. Actually India is asking for 2 and even Russia is working on 2nd one but its not clear whether the second one is for India or not.

 

[angeldemon_007]

I think India has given order for 3 stealthier Kirvak IIIs. Are these 3 frigates, the first 3 of the 7 frigates proposed under Project 17A or they are different from Project 17A ?

 

[Archie]

I think India has given order for 3 stealthier Kirvak IIIs. Are these 3 frigates, the first 3 of the 7 frigates proposed under Project 17A or they are different from Project 17A ?

Kirvak III or Talwar class are different from P17A WHICH IS ACTUALLY A FOLLOW ON ORDER FOR Shivalik class frigates
P17A ships will be larger than Talwar class ie around 6000tons as compared to 4000 tons of kirwak III

By the way as per recent info order for Kirwak III has been increased to 4 ships , which infact will be built in a private shipyard in India under TOT

 

[Archie]

I think India has given order for 3 stealthier Kirvak IIIs. Are these 3 frigates, the first 3 of the 7 frigates proposed under Project 17A or they are different from Project 17A ?

Kirvak III or Talwar class are different from P17A WHICH IS ACTUALLY A FOLLOW ON ORDER FOR Shivalik class frigates
P17A ships will be larger than Talwar class ie around 6000tons as compared to 4000 tons of kirwak III

By the way as per recent info order for Kirwak III has been increased to 4 ships , which infact will be built in a private shipyard in India under TOT

 

[angeldemon_007]

By the way as per recent info order for Kirwak III has been increased to 4 ships , which infact will be built in a private shipyard in India under TOT

I don't think there was any official announcement. Only knowledge we have is that Russia might give a 4 frigate project to Pipavav which is also not finalized yet. But whatever, it is a good news for our country.

 

[angeldemon_007]

What is happening ??? Any news on the progress of project 17a or still only the talks ??/

 

[truthseeker2010]

By 2020 the Indian Navy surface combatant fleet will be

■3 carriers
■10 destroyers [ 3 Delhi + 3 Kolkata 15A + 4 Project 15B]
■24 frigates [9 Krivak + 3 Brahmaputra + 3 Shivalik + 7 Project 17A + 2 Project 17B]
■20 Corvettes [ includes 12 Project 28 and 28A ]

There could be as many as 34 submarines in total by 2020, while the Kilo's and 209's will be retired before 2025

■3 ATV SSBN
■3 ATV SSGN/SSN
■2 Akula II improved
■6 U214 / S-80 / Marlin / Amur 1850 (Procurement under discussion)
■6 Scorpene
■10 Kilo Improved
■4 U-209

In the FORCE November 2008 issue the Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition stated "a total of 7 destroyers, 13 frigates..." as the major warship construction that would have been accomplished by 2022. That would indicate (3 P15A + 4 P15B} destroyers and {3 Krivaks + 3 P17 + 7 P17A} frigates. Interviews of senior Indian navy officials in the December 2008 issue of FORCE talk of future warship construction projects, with the seven Project 15B DDGs and seven Project 17A FFGs clealy identified. The Improved Krivaks are of imported origin and do not form part of the domestic warship construction package. That still leaves a shortfall of six yet-to-be-built FFGs and this void is to be filled by an additional 3 Project 1135.6 FFGs to add to the six, plus ordering an additional three more Project 17 FFGs as a Batch 2 package.

Can anyone come up with difference between Pakistan and India Project 17 (do they have any)

These Figures are way too over estimated because
There is nothing sort of Project 17B and construction on 17A has also not been started.
Project 28 and 28A is(8+4) total of 12, only 1 has been launched so far so a maximum of 10 will be by 2020 not 20.
As far as Subs go:
out of 10 Kilo's only 5 will be in commission by 2020.

 

[Archie]

These Figures are way too over estimated because
There is nothing sort of Project 17B and construction on 17A has also not been started.
Project 28 and 28A is(8+4) total of 12, only 1 has been launched so far so a maximum of 10 will be by 2020 not 20.
As far as Subs go:
out of 10 Kilo's only 5 will be in commission by 2020.

You are mostly right , But the only think i find wrong withthe above projection is P17B which i dont think will even be announced before 2017
As far as P17A is concerned , its construction will begin in mid 2011 at Mazagaon Docks , Mumbai which will make 4 ships with deliveries starting 2017 , while 3 ships will be made at Garden Reach Shipyard starting 2013 after completion of upgrade of the shipyard , it will begin delivery in 2019
As far as time for type 28 corvettes is concerned , well the first ship will enter service in 2012 and the last one is expected to enter service in 2022
Garden reach Shipyard which is the prime contractor for these corvettes is undergoing morderisation and upg which will enable them to manufacture 2 corvettes at on time instead of one , what it will do is that
Currently GRSE takes 6 yr to deliver 4 corvettes , from 2014 it would be able to deliver 8 Corvettes in 8 yrs ie by 2022

As far as Submarines are concerned the guy has completely screwed there number , India is expected to operate not more than 18 Subs in 2020 which will rise to 21 by 2025

Rest of his Projections are pretty much on course and match Indian navy Fleet mordernisation and expansion plan circa 2007-22
which calls for a fleet of 160 ships and 20 Subs
as against a fleet of 140 ships and 14 subs