Indian Navy prepares for Trials of Submarine version of BrahMos Missile

[Skull and Bones]

P75Is won't be able to carry it and will have torpedo launched land attack missiles instead, Brahmos on SSBNs does make sense wrt self defence capability, since Brahmos prime role is still anti ship! However, the prime plattform will be our coming SSNs, since their prime mission will be attack of enemy surface fleets or coastal targets, both fields where Brahmos is more than useful and where it will complement Nirbhay that is more aimed at long range strike attacks.

Still, it'll be an overkill as a SSBN borne anti-ship platform. As sonar can't lock in targets beyond 50 km and neither a sub can avail data link underwater to target a surface vessel at 300km.

My vote goes to tube launched Klub missiles.

Didn't Russia proposed an Amur class with VLS?

 

[RISING SUN]

Still, it'll be an overkill as a SSBN borne anti-ship platform. As sonar can't lock in targets beyond 50 km and neither a sub can avail data link underwater to target a surface vessel at 300km.

My vote goes to tube launched Klub missiles.

Didn't Russia proposed an Amur class with VLS?

Classification of Missile
Type:Cruise Missile
Launch Mode:Sea-to-Sea Missile, Sea-to-Surface (Coast) Missile
Range:Short Range Missile
Propulsion:1st stage booster engine, 2nd phase Ramjet,Scramjet
Warhead:Conventional, Strategic

The BrahMos II cruise missile guidance system combines an InfraRed seeker with Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) for the terminal and cruise flight phases respectively. BRAHMOS missile is capable of being launched from submarine from a depth of 40-50 metres. The missile is installed in a modular launcher vertically in the pressure hull of the submarine. The canisterised missile is launched vertically, the nose cap prevents water from entering the 'air-intake' during the underwater flight. Once the missile emerges from the water, the sensors provide the “out of water command” and the nose cap is fired for turning the missile in the desired direction to hit the target.

BRAHMOS installation in submarine will increase manifold the 'offensive power' of the vessel without compromising on its 'defensive power' as the torpedo tubes can be fully utilized for defense. All studies and simulation trials related to underwater launch have been completed.

If a sub is not able to lock in on a target 300 KM away then why they are developing such kind of missile. It is simple because they know some way by which information about target can be transmitted to the sub.

 

[Skull and Bones]

If a sub is not able to lock in on a target 300 KM away then why they are developing such kind of missile. It is simple because they know some way by which information about target can be transmitted to the sub.

Okay, let me clarify few points to you.

1. Size of a typical SSBN is 4-5 times of a typical SSK, hence the sonar signature is multiplied by the same factor. And unlike diesel electric subs (with AIP), there are no provision of shutting down the nuclear reactor of a SSBN.

2. Because of non existent SONAR stealth, the SSBN is supposed to stay far away from enemy shores and surface vessels. And it is a sea based deterrent. And NOT a platform for anti-ship, until and unless it's position is compromised.

3. And each SILO of an SSBN is meant for long range SLBMs. Equipping them short range SLCMs will only decrease it's valuation as an asset in warfare.

4. KLUB SLCM can be fired from torpedo tubes, and having terminal velocity of near mach 2. And it's quite cheaper than Brahmos. And deploying KLUB frees up VLS for long range SLBMs.

Land Based Brahmos is only useful if the submarine can come as close as 200 km from the enemy shores, which is very unlikely for SSBNs.

 

[RISING SUN]

Okay, let me clarify few points to you.

1. Size of a typical SSBN is 4-5 times of a typical SSK, hence the sonar signature is multiplied by the same factor. And unlike diesel electric subs (with AIP), there are no provision of shutting down the nuclear reactor of a SSBN.

2. Because of non existent SONAR stealth, the SSBN is supposed to stay far away from enemy shores and surface vessels. And it is a sea based deterrent. And NOT a platform for anti-ship, until and unless it's position is compromised.

3. And each SILO of an SSBN is meant for long range SLBMs. Equipping them short range SLCMs will only decrease it's valuation as an asset in warfare.

4. KLUB SLCM can be fired from torpedo tubes, and having terminal velocity of near mach 2. And it's quite cheaper than Brahmos. And deploying KLUB frees up VLS for long range SLBMs.

Land Based Brahmos is only useful if the submarine can come as close as 200 km from the enemy shores, hich is very unlikely for SSBNs.

I know mate these details & I'm not saying that SSBN will approach near enemy shore or it will fire Bramhos. You are confusing SSGN with SSBN. SSGN are less noisy than SSBN & they can go near the coast how much near I don't know but certainly in firing range. That's for sure. As I said earlier that 1st three ARIHANTs will be converted into SSGN by making cetain changes in armaments & stealth when other two SSBN are available & keep this in attention that they(New SSBN) will be able to hold & launch much more missile than you can't imagine brother. Then these SSGN will be armed with all varieties of cruise missiles & torpedoes.

 

[Skull and Bones]

I know mate these details & I'm not saying that SSBN will approach near enemy shore or it will fire Bramhos. You are confusing SSGN with SSBN. SSGN are less noisy than SSBN & they can go near the coast how much near I don't know but certainly in firing range. That's for sure. As I said earlier that 1st three ARIHANTs will be converted into SSGN by making cetain changes in armaments & stealth when other two SSBN are available & keep this in attention that they(New SSBN) will be able to hold & launch much more missile than you can't imagine brother. Then these SSGN will be armed with all varieties of cruise missiles & torpedoes.

SSGN is a confusing concept, and most of the operational SSGNs operational posses cruise missiles exceeding range 1500 km. Still, a nuclear powered missile can never achieve the sonar signature of a SSK, adding AIP is a blessing.

If navy is inclined towards SL Brahmos, i have very reasons to believe Navy is going towards Amur 1650.

 

[RISING SUN]

underwater communications cables, Gertrude,VLF radio waves, ELF transmissions, Electromagnetic waves these kind of communication mediams are used for data transmission from other end to subs.

VLF radio waves(3–30 kHz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters.A vessel more deeply submerged might use a buoy on a long cable equipped with an antenna. The buoy rises to a few meters below the surface, and may be small enough to remain undetected by enemy sonar / radar. Submarines only carry a VLF reception aerial, and do not respond on such low frequencies. So a ground-to-submarine VLF broadcast is always a one way broadcast, originating on the ground and received aboard the boat. If two-way communication is needed, the boat must ascend to periscope depth (just below the surface) and raise a telescopic mast antenna to communicate on higher frequencies (such as HF, UHF or VHF).
Electromagnetic waves in the ELF frequency range (3–300 Hz) (see also SLF) can penetrate seawater to depths of hundreds of meters, allowing communication with submarines at their operating depths.

ELF transmissions

The coding used for US military ELF transmissions employed a 64-symbol Reed-Solomon error correction code, meaning that the alphabet had 64 symbols, each represented by a very long pseudo-random sequence. The entire transmission was then encrypted. The advantages of such a technique are that by correlating multiple transmissions, a message could be completed even with very low signal-to-noise ratios, and because only a very few pseudo-random sequences represented actual message characters, there was a very high probability that if a message was successfully received, it was a valid message (anti-spoofing).

The communication link is one-way. No submarine could have its own ELF transmitter on board, due to the sheer size of such a device. Where available, dedicated military communications satellite systems are preferred for long distance communications, as HF may betray the location of the submarine. The US Navy's system is called Submarine Satellite Information Exchange Sub-System (SSIXS), a component of the Navy Ultra High Frequency Satellite Communications System (UHF SATCOM).

 

[RISING SUN]

SSGN is a confusing concept, and most of the operational SSGNs operational posses cruise missiles exceeding range 1500 km. Still, a nuclear powered missile can never achieve the sonar signature of a SSK, adding AIP is a blessing.

If navy is inclined towards SL Brahmos, i have very reasons to believe Navy is going towards Amur 1650.

Agree here mate.
Range is low for Bramhos but not other cruise missiles. Navy is going for both AMUR as well as SSGN. First wave may include SSKs then SSGN will come into play for mass attacking because of large no of missiles capability.
After all SSGN is more power packed & venerable than a SSK. P75I will include vertical launch capability.

 

[ashok321]

and neither a sub can avail data link underwater to target a surface vessel at 300km

The Brahmos Missile is autonomous, Universal missile, once it is cold launched from the submarine, crosses the sea surface, ignites, why it needs any data link from the submarine?

 

[sancho]

If navy is inclined towards SL Brahmos

They aren't! The main requirements for P75I are AIP and land attack, which the Amur fullfils with AIP and Klub S missiles. The Brahmos was mainly offered by the Brahmos coop and wasn't requested by IN.

 

[ashok321]

And one important thingy - that is, Its a waste of Arihant like platform to have been mated with 300 Km range missile, while we have sagarika type K-15 with better range and payload capability.

Unless India wants to be a laughing stock among the world....

Which NUKE navy in the world does this stupid thing?

We spent billions for this nuke sub project just for 300 KM range...?

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

The Amur-1650 is the more heavily modified variant, it is armed with a VLS missile system capable of salvo-fire at multiple predesignated targets.
File:BrahMos missie on Lada class non-nuclear submarine maqette.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They can be outfitted with AIP fuel cells, considerably improving submerged endurance and range. AIP capability can be added in a hull extension plug either during new build construction, or as a refit to existing boats.
Armament: 4 × 533 mm (21 in) torpedo tubes, 16 torpedoes, 10 VLS cells, missiles, mines total.
Although BrahMos was primarily an anti-ship missile, the BrahMos Block III can also engage land based targets. It can be launched either in a vertical or inclined position and is capable of covering targets over a 360 degree horizon. India is now the only nation in the world with this advanced technology. Submarine-launched, anti-ship variant (under development, expected completion soon), Submarine-launched, land-attack variant (under development, expected completion in near future), Anti-aircraft carrier variant (tested in March 2012).

If India is not going to induct Brahmos missile in its subs then why is it testing it. I am giving a hypothetical scenario. Consider that there is war going on western front. India is well capable of attacking Karachi base, every one has seen it. Now they have diversified their options, here comes the GWADAR comes into play. They know for sure that in no open sea they can't defeat IN even in distant waters, so they will bring in land to sea attack resources station it along the coast of MAKRAN & GWADAR. Then what will you do. Indian resources will be venerable from this perspective. Now consider that India has AMUR or SSGN type of sub equipped with ship attack as well as land attack Bramhos & other CM capability. It will remain submerged, so land radar will be able to pick it up, it will fire its missiles on major sites of attack means. Now path is clear for Indian destroyers & frigates in terms of land based threats.

Now folks no body answered my earlier question?
Is their any technique or any missile in whole world by which we can merge the qualities of NIRBHAY & Brahmos in 1 missile? It will be hard to track considering the terrain hugging tech & high speed + longer range. Real deadly missile if integrated with stealth bombers & subs.
@500, @Abingdonboy, @acetophenol, @Skull and Bones, @Ajaxpaul, @Ayush, @Chinese-Dragon, @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR, @Jade, @jbgt90, nick_indian, @Rajaraja Chola, @RoYaL~GuJJaR, @Sergi, @SpArK, @Soheil.



The Amur-1650 is the more heavily modified variant, it is armed with a VLS missile system capable of salvo-fire at multiple predesignated targets.
File:BrahMos missie on Lada class non-nuclear submarine maqette.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They can be outfitted with AIP fuel cells, considerably improving submerged endurance and range. AIP capability can be added in a hull extension plug either during new build construction, or as a refit to existing boats.
Armament: 4 × 533 mm (21 in) torpedo tubes, 16 torpedoes, 10 VLS cells, missiles, mines total.
Although BrahMos was primarily an anti-ship missile, the BrahMos Block III can also engage land based targets. It can be launched either in a vertical or inclined position and is capable of covering targets over a 360 degree horizon. India is now the only nation in the world with this advanced technology. Submarine-launched, anti-ship variant (under development, expected completion soon), Submarine-launched, land-attack variant (under development, expected completion in near future), Anti-aircraft carrier variant (tested in March 2012).

If India is not going to induct Brahmos missile in its subs then why is it testing it. I am giving a hypothetical scenario. Consider that there is war going on western front. India is well capable of attacking Karachi base, every one has seen it. Now they have diversified their options, here comes the GWADAR comes into play. They know for sure that in no open sea they can't defeat IN even in distant waters, so they will bring in land to sea attack resources station it along the coast of MAKRAN & GWADAR. Then what will you do. Indian resources will be venerable from this perspective. Now consider that India has AMUR or SSGN type of sub equipped with ship attack as well as land attack Bramhos & other CM capability. It will remain submerged, so land radar will be able to pick it up, it will fire its missiles on major sites of attack means. Now path is clear for Indian destroyers & frigates in terms of land based threats.

Now folks no body answered my earlier question?
Is their any technique or any missile in whole world by which we can merge the qualities of NIRBHAY & Brahmos in 1 missile? It will be hard to track considering the terrain hugging tech & high speed + longer range. Real deadly missile if integrated with stealth bombers & subs.
@500, @Abingdonboy, @acetophenol, @Skull and Bones, @Ajaxpaul, @Ayush, @Chinese-Dragon, @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR, @Jade, @jbgt90, nick_indian, @Rajaraja Chola, @RoYaL~GuJJaR, @Sergi, @SpArK, @Soheil.

Buddy as u had mentioned, Brahmos is already a near sea skimming missile. Its speed is best in the world along with its maneouravibility. So as Skulls had mentioned sonar have a range of 50 km. So its better this missile is integrated with satellite network.
Satellites should provide inputs of enemy warships 300 km away, and they can fire this missile at the target location given by the satellite.
For this a complete network satellite connection must be implemented

 

[Skull and Bones]

Buddy as u had mentioned, Brahmos is already a near sea skimming missile. Its speed is best in the world along with its maneouravibility. So as Skulls had mentioned sonar have a range of 50 km. So its better this missile is integrated with satellite network.
Satellites should provide inputs of enemy warships 300 km away, and they can fire this missile at the target location given by the satellite.
For this a complete network satellite connection must be implemented

Because of attenuation of EM signals thus very less bandwidth, submarines can't access SATCOM links without exposing the T/R unit above water.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Because of attenuation of EM signals thus very less bandwidth, submarines can't access SATCOM links without exposing the T/R unit above water.

For strategic strikes, i mean the subs can expose itself above water for sometime, launch the missile and submerge again. Since 300 km is a safe distance from which it can strike, there is less risk of enemy forces sinking it so soon

 

[RISING SUN]

Buddy as u had mentioned, Brahmos is already a near sea skimming missile. Its speed is best in the world along with its maneouravibility. So as Skulls had mentioned sonar have a range of 50 km. So its better this missile is integrated with satellite network.
Satellites should provide inputs of enemy warships 300 km away, and they can fire this missile at the target location given by the satellite.
For this a complete network satellite connection must be implemented

Please refer to post no 36 where I have given the ways by which command center can send the exact location of enemy warships to the sub & then it can fire the missile. Missile will take hardly 3 minutes to reach target & a ship no matter how fast can't escape from red zone (terminal guidance range) which is 50 KM for Bramhos. This how a sub will use Bramhos in Anti ship mode.

 

[Skull and Bones]

For strategic strikes, i mean the subs can expose itself above water for sometime, launch the missile and submerge again. Since 300 km is a safe distance from which it can strike, there is less risk of enemy forces sinking it so soon

You're discounting aerial ASW platforms.