Indian Navy N-LUH update

[sancho]

Something interesting in this regard:

India Floats New Naval Utility Helicopter Requirement

...The naval utility helicopter (NUH) competition seeks to replace aging, license-built Alouette III/Chetak helicopters. The new contest also signals an amalgamation of roles, since the anti-submarine-warfare (ASW) and light-attack missions have so far been tasked to the heavier Westland Sea King fleet, while the Chetaks are assigned logistics and search-and-rescue (SAR) activities...

A procurement manager with the Indian navy indicates that the NUH has to meld several roles into one modern new platform, after the indigenous naval ALH Dhruv failed to deliver a light, multirole shipborne platform with an ASW capability. Indeed, with the navy's growing anti-piracy responsibilities in the Indian Ocean region, the NUH is the latest in a raft of acquisitions pointed at asymmetric engagement at sea.

...Contenders include Eurocopter's AS565 Panther, Sikorsky's S-76B, and a maritime version of AgustaWestland's AW109 Koala. Bell and Russian Helicopters could also field bids...

India Floats New Naval Utility Helicopter Requirement


If this is true, it would explain why IN didn't looked for the same LUH IAF/IA were evaluating and why HALs LUH will not suit their requirements either.

 

[cloud_9]

Eurocopter pitches naval Panther for NUH

The recently floated Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) programme is likely to be fought closely, with as many as five choppers that fit the bill and expected to throw their hat in the ring. Eurocopter, currently awaiting a decision on India's reconnaissance and surveillance helicopter (RSH) competition for 197 helicopters for the IAF and Army, will be pitching its AS565 MB Panther for the NUH bid.

The AS565 MB Panther is the military version of Eurocopter’s multi-role, twin-engine Dauphin family – whose largest civilian operator is Pawan Hans Helicopters Ltd. The mission equipment and systems integrated on these rotorcraft include anti-ship missiles, search torpedoes, surveillance and weather radars, Electro Optical System (EOS) with FLIR & TV sensors associated with laser range finder, glass cockpits with night vision goggle compatibility, a Link II data link that couples the helicopters’ sensors to shipboard mission systems, as well as countermeasures suites with missile/radar/laser warning receivers and chaff & flare dispensers.

 

[sancho]

Which confirms that they are going for Dhruv class helicopters and not Alouette III/Chetak class once.

 

[Gessler]

Which confirms that they are going for Dhruv class helicopters and not Alouette III/Chetak class once.

Then why not just buy more Dhruvs?

I heard there is some problem with the rotor blades not being able to fold down due to composite
construction, can't that be rectified with a different rotor design with conventional metals?

 

[kurup]

Then why not just buy more Dhruvs?

I heard there is some problem with the rotor blades not being able to fold down due to composite
construction, can't that be rectified with a different rotor design with conventional metals?

Last time reports were that dhruv's rotors can be folded manually while navy wanted automatic folding mechanisms........

 

[sancho]

Then why not just buy more Dhruvs?

I heard there is some problem with the rotor blades not being able to fold down due to composite
construction, can't that be rectified with a different rotor design with conventional metals?

I would love to see more naval Dhruvs, although the ASW version is ugly. There were plans to add folding rotors to it, but IN seems has rejected it. What I don't get is, why they suddenly require ASW capability for these helicopters, when they add numbers of S70s/NH90s with that capability anyway? They will be the main plattform for our Frigats, Destroyers, Carriers and LDPs/LHDs anyway, all that is left is light utility roles, where you don't need such advanced systems or costly plattforms.

 

[Gessler]

I would love to see more naval Dhruvs, although the ASW version is ugly. There were plans to add folding rotors to it, but IN seems has rejected it. What I don't get is, why they suddenly require ASW capability for these helicopters, when they add numbers of S70s/NH90s with that capability anyway? They will be the main plattform for our Frigats, Destroyers, Carriers and LDPs/LHDs anyway, all that is left is light utility roles, where you don't need such advanced systems or costly plattforms.

Corrupt leaders, MoD, and top-brass

 

[Abingdonboy]

Then why not just buy more Dhruvs?

I heard there is some problem with the rotor blades not being able to fold down due to composite
construction, can't that be rectified with a different rotor design with conventional metals?

Corrupt leaders, MoD, and top-brass

Hardly

I would love to see more naval Dhruvs, although the ASW version is ugly. There were plans to add folding rotors to it, but IN seems has rejected it. What I don't get is, why they suddenly require ASW capability for these helicopters, when they add numbers of S70s/NH90s with that capability anyway? They will be the main plattform for our Frigats, Destroyers, Carriers and LDPs/LHDs anyway, all that is left is light utility roles, where you don't need such advanced systems or costly plattforms.

From what I have heard is that the ASW/anti surface capability the IN is calling for is because the N-LUHs will be in some cases operated off smaller IN ships such as OPVs where the N-LUH is the sole helo carried as the hangar and ship are not able to house a 10-12 tonne ASW helo such as the S-70B. As such the IN wants some ASW/anti-surface cover from embarked rotary-wing assets.


Wrt the N-ALH, I had heard intially when this tender was launched it was because of the ALH being too heavy that excluded it from this competion. However given the AS565 MB is now in the fray with an empty and maximum take-off weight not too far off the N-ALH's this clearly isn't the case. So I belive it comes down the fact the N-ALH is perceived (rightly or wrongly) by the IN to not be a mature enough platform for them. Whilst the IAF and IA versions of the ALH have been constantly refined since 2001 and they are now onto their 3rd such version which has corrected minor and major issues the users had with previous version, the IN decided early on when they were delivered their first ALHs that the system wasn't good enough for them and instead of taking the IAF/IA approach of refinement they called it a day and as such HAL effectively gave up on the N-ALH and little has changed on the N-ALH for more than 5 years now. As such the N-ALH probably isn't mature enough or developed enough to be ready to enter into this competion for the IN and to go up against systems that have been under going constant refinement,upgrades and design overhauls. The time it would take for HAL to get the N-ALH on par with those helos that will take part is just too long in the IN's eyes as they are looking to have the first helos in ~2015/16 and they don't want to be waiting around for a platfomr that may never materilaise with their Chetaks not getting any younger. We should just accept, unfortunately the N-ALH has little future.

 

[sancho]

Corrupt leaders, MoD, and top-brass

It's an IN decision not MoD, because they initially wanted IN to join the IAF/IA LUH competition.

From what I have heard is that the ASW/anti surface capability the IN is calling for is because the N-LUHs will be in some cases operated off smaller IN ships such as OPVs where the N-LUH is the sole helo carried as the hangar and ship are not able to house a 10-12 tonne ASW helo such as the S-70B.

Which doesn't make sense, since OVP are just patrol boats, their offensive capability good enough for anti piracy roles, but not for ASW or attacking other naval vessels. They need helicopters for SAR if at all and naval Dhruv (with folding rotors) as well as LUHs like the Fennec, or even HALs LUH in future would be enough for that role too. IN even stated that they don't want the ASW Dhruv, because of higher range requirements, that's why they wanted medium class helicopters for this role.

...not be a mature enough platform ...The time it would take for HAL to get the N-ALH on par with those helos that will take part is just too long...

How should that be possible? The naval version is in service since years in IN and ICG, the ASW version was developed and tested, all that would be left is the folding rotors, if that isn't ready as well:

 

[Abingdonboy]

It's an IN decision not MoD, because they initially wanted IN to join the IAF/IA LUH competition.




Which doesn't make sense, since OVP are just patrol boats, their offensive capability good enough for anti piracy roles, but not for ASW or attacking other naval vessels. They need helicopters for SAR if at all and naval Dhruv (with folding rotors) as well as LUHs like the Fennec, or even HALs LUH in future would be enough for that role too. IN even stated that they don't want the ASW Dhruv, because of higher range requirements, that's why they wanted medium class helicopters for this role.



How should that be possible? The naval version is in service since years in IN and ICG, the ASW version was developed and tested, all that would be left is the folding rotors, if that isn't ready as well:

The problem was never the N-ALH's blades couldn't fold, it was that the folding mechanism was entirely manual meaning it had to be done by hand wheras the IN wanted the blades to be folded automatically like on their SeaKings. I think the IN had some problems with the ALH's Maritime search radar and decided to abandon it. The fact is that HAL effectively stopped developing the N'ALH after this so the tech onboard is atleast 4-5 years (at best) behind what would be offered by others to the IN for this competion which would be state of the art and the latest tech. I'm sure that there are also other minor issues that would need to be ironed out on the N-ALH just like they were for the land based versions but the issue is now time or the lack of it as I have stated.

 

[sancho]

The fact is that HAL effectively stopped developing the N'ALH after this so the tech onboard is atleast 4-5 years (at best) behind what would be offered by others to the IN for this competion which would be state of the art and the latest tech.

That's wrong, the ASW version was developed and tested just last year and all base techs are the same for any ALH version, even updates developed for LCH avionics, or the stubwings of Rudra can be added to naval Dhruv as well. So neither it's maturity, time for development of the needed changes, nor upgrades of techs can be reasons not to choose the naval ALH and I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be possible to fit an automatic folding rotor system to it, if the rotors already can be folded manually.

Very strange decision by IN, especially since they are generally known to support even low capable indigenous developments like N-LCA.

 

[sancho]

The problem was never the N-ALH's blades couldn't fold, it was that the folding mechanism was entirely manual meaning it had to be done by hand wheras the IN wanted the blades to be folded automatically like on their SeaKings.

I searched the net for more infos about the naval Dhruv and why IN now wants a new type of helicopter to the replace the Chetaks and I just got more and more confused.

Apparently IN found performance issues of the older engine that was less powerful than the current Shakti engine, not to forget that the naval Dhruv is heavier than the land based versions. However, currently all Dhruvs will be updated with the Shakti engines, so that shouldn't be a big deal anymore.
The folding rotor issue was not only a problem of automatic or not, but that they couldn't be fully folded as the rotors of the Sea King and Kamov helicopters. They can fold their rotors nearly in a straight line above the tail, which also can be folded. That reduces the lenght, but don't increase the width of the parking space either. Naval Dhruvs rotors on the other hand, stand out to the sides and makes the helicopter wider than it actually is and that requires more space in the hangar:

So it might be a fair point of IN not to go for it, but then I checked which IN vessels would use a light class helicopters and the result was, that there are only 2 x Corvette and 1 x OVP types of vessels that can operate helicopter, but while the Sukanya class OVP has hangars, the Corvettes don't, since they have just a landing deck.
That means, there are only 6 smaller vessels, that couldn't permanently operate a naval Dhruv, while all bigger vessels operates Kamov and Sea King helicopters. Even in future with new vessels and helicopters, it wouldn't be different, because IN wants the S70/NH90 with longer range and lift capabilties for their blue water fleet. So I checked the general performance differences as well:

And as it turns out, the naval Dhruv shows similar if not better performance than other naval helicopters in it's class and could easily take over the utility and SAR roles of the Chetaks. Even a naval Fennec (most likely winner of IAF/IA LUH) would offer better performance than the Chetaks and would be small enough to be used on all INs current and future smaller vessels. Adding one of these on the lower end, with a propper medium class helicopter on the higher end, would be the best and most cost-effective choice, but strangely IN wants something else.

 

[SQ8]

Related question..
Whats the service life left on the IN Sea Kings?
The IAF just purchased the EH101(albeit in its VIP guise).. which in my view is one of the best ASW platforms available..if not the best. Almost a perfect balance of range, payload and reliability...along with being very maneuoverable.

 

[sancho]

Related question..
Whats the service life left on the IN Sea Kings?
The IAF just purchased the EH101(albeit in its VIP guise).. which in my view is one of the best ASW platforms available..if not the best. Almost a perfect balance of range, payload and reliability...along with being very maneuoverable.

Not sure about the Sea Kings, especially the US once, since they were used versions, but the EH101 might be too big for some of the hangars of Frigats, Corvettes..., even European navy's mainly use Lynx or now the NFH (Nato Frigat Helicopter) from these platforms in the ASW role.