Indian Naval Air Arm - 2020

[Abingdonboy]

The IN might have started getting early orders for N-MMRCA for IAC-2. Additionally I have heard the IN is very likely to get their own AAR assets but this will only happen after IAF has started recieivng their NG AARs (A330 MRTT IMHO) and I'd say the MR-MPA number will be higher than 6 I think 9-14 and P-8I order will touch 24 of not more. Also the IN is going to have to buy heavy lift helos sooner or later for their Marine infantry corps they are raising and to operate their 4-6 LHD/LPD. Post 2020 will be more interesting IMHO- when IAC-2 is on the anvil and the IN is thus looking at CATOBAR configured AWACS. The list should also include 56+ N-LUHs which will be procured in the next 4 years.

 

[janon]

Sorry, but we can keep discussion about what additional aircrafts or capabilities that could be interesting for IN.

For example, imo they should select the Airbus C295 MPA in the MRMR competitions (just like ICG, BSF, or IAF in other versions), but besides the normal MPA capabilities, they should add a sidewards 20 to 30mm canon:

(the rear one)

Why? In most situations these MPAs are the first that arrives at a spot when a vessel is under attack from pirats, because they are faster, have more range and endurance than naval vessels and their helicopters. However, we have seen what they can do in such a situation to fight the pirats, only to to threaten them with a low flyover. Attacking such small vessels with heavy anti ship weapons is useless, while a sideward facing canon enables the MPA to circle above the pirats in save distances and fire some warning rounds and if needed even to take them out. It's the same principle that makes the C130 Spectres useful in CAS of ground forces.
When we also keep in mind that India is facing a coastal terrorist threat, MPAs with offensive capabilities against them shouldn't be a bad idea either!

What do you think?

I think that sounds like using lightning bolts to scare or kill a bug. IMO, putting four or five armed guards on every ship with long range rifles and quality training would be a much more cost effective way of eliminating piracy, than maintaining modified armed maritime patrol aircrafts to be available at short notice 24/7/365 in the IOR.

 

[arp2041]

Nice post, but some corrections.

The P8Is are the LRMR aircrafts that will replace the Tu142, just like the MRMR aircrafts will replace the IL 38s, so by 2020 these Russian aircrafts will be gone.
Also, when you look at the IN airwing Wiki or BR navy aviation and you will see that IN don't have a dedicated transport fleet.

The Tu-142 have recently got mid life upgrades, increasing there life by 16 years which means that they will be in the IN's inventory up till 2025 for sure, don't know about IL 38s though.

+ yes P-8Is are the LRMR, currently we have ordered a total of 12 a/c but the no. will surely increase to 24.

+ I don't think IN needs a dedicated transport fleet for the amphibious warfare they will need LSD, LPD etc. which they are working on but transport fleet if ever needed can be utilized that of IAF.

1. Not for the first 2 carriers, unless N-LCA won't be another development disaster

2. The RFI was for reportedly for 40 fighters and I think the frontrunners are Rafale and F18SH, but with the delays of the carrier development, the whole idea could be scrapped in favor for a naval 5th gen fighter.

By 5th gen fighter u mean N-FGFA, which will only be possible around 2025 or so, so i don't think IN will wait that much for a MMRCA aircraft unless F-35 is ordered (but of course it comes with conditions which IN will never adhere to). So best aircraft around 2017 time frame (since than i think IN will order a MMRCA) will be Rafale b'coz of the type compatibility with IAF.

3. ordered are 6 so far, but they will be MK1 prototypes. The MK2 version is speculated in numbers of up to 60, depending on source. Wait and see

I think if HAL can make this one right, IN will not shy away from giving huge orders, everything depends on the time & cost that HAL takes to develop a N-LCA.

4. 12 ordered, additional orders might depend on MRMR selection too

This one, 24 for sure.

6. Depends on the viewpoint. There are not many navies that will have 2 dedicated aircraft carriers by 2020, on the other side a single Chinese or French carrier offer slightly less, but more capable fighters.
The MPA fleet will be the most modern in the world behind the US, the ASW helicopter fleet will be big and capable too.

7. For the Indian Ocean area, they will provide the first line of defence against any enemy naval fleet and since there is no other country in that area that has similar capabilities, it will be a very strong asset.
But when the aim is to project the power to the east, in case of an Indo-Chinese war, the capabilities will be not enough, especially China has a numerically superior sub fleet.

When we compare IN to PLAN we usually compare entire PLAN's might to that of IN, but we often forgot that PLAN hands will be tied in SCS & Pacific b'coz of USN shifting 60% fleet there & b'coz of the no. of disputes with the regional countries. PLAN at best can bring 10-15% of there resources to IOR, compared to that IN is a very strong & capable force, not to forgot that it holds Chinese lifeline of Malacca.

Any shore based air defence will be of IAF, not IN. That's why IAF is raising MKI squads in the east and south to provide the necessary maritime attack capability. Rafale might be added at some of these airbases too, although I think they are more important in the north east area.

So, is it possible that IAF buys combat jets on IN's budget & operate itself, just like it does for the armed helos, but I don't think IN will give a go ahead for that, it wants to have it's own say as far as maritime affairs of India are concerned.


+ IMO with such a massive expansion of IN air arm, by 2020 it can easily be included in top-20 air forces of the world (if we count every naval air arm of a country as an air force in itself), it can become large enough to have a direct effect on any land conflict in which India is involved.

Are we going to see combination of Mig-29k and NLCA on IAC-2 also ??

which will come after 2020...

Mig 29k & NLCA i guess will only be for INS viky & IAC-1, but with IAC-2, IN will desire a more capable aircraft that is compatible with a CATOBAR configuration. It can be any a/c like Rafale, ET, N-fgfa, etc.

IAC-2 will be inducted around 2025.

 

[sancho]

They have undergone upgrades. expect them to be operational upto 2025 atleast.

Last Indian Navy Tu-142ME Overhaul Completed

Beriev announced on December 5 that it has delivered back to the Indian Navy the last of its eight Tu-142MEs to be overhauled.

Dave Allport - 5-Dec-2011...

...In additional to maintenance work, the aircraft have undergone a service life extension programme, including some equipment upgrading, which should see them remain in service until 2020.

Last Indian Navy Tu-142ME Overhaul Completed: key.Aero, Military Aviation

Your assumption is wrong... Tuplov will not be replaced with Poseidon.

Indian Navy receives first IFF-1410 transponder from HAL
24 July 2012

The Indian Navy has received the first Identification of Friend or Foe (IFF-1410) transponder from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in support of its Boeing P-8I Poseidon long-range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft...

...In January 2009, the Indian Navy placed orders with Boeing for the delivery of eight P-8I Poseidon aircraft, worth $2.1bn, intended to replace its ageing fleet of Tupolev Tu-142M maritime surveillance turboprop aircraft.

Indian Navy receives first IFF-1410 transponder from HAL - Naval Technology

The IN might have started getting early orders for N-MMRCA for IAC-2. Additionally I have heard the IN is very likely to get their own AAR assets but this will only happen after IAF has started recieivng their NG AARs (A330 MRTT IMHO) and I'd say the MR-MPA number will be higher than 6 I think 9-14 and P-8I order will touch 24 of not more. Also the IN is going to have to buy heavy lift helos sooner or later for their Marine infantry corps they are raising and to operate their 4-6 LHD/LPD.

IN has the requirement to refuel their MPAs, but as I told you earlier, it would be operationally and financially nuts if MoD will not add them to IAFs fleet.
The only heavy lift helicopter for the navy would be the CH53K and I have some doubts that they will go for it, because on LDPs their numbers will be very limited and using more medium class helicopters makes mores sense (AW101, S92, S70, NFH90). Sadly there is also no commonality factor, since IAF didn't included the CH53K as an option for their heavy lift requirement.
It actually would be surprising if we would go for a higher number of costly P8Is, instead of adding a higher number of MRMR aircrafts besides them. I posted a news report in the IN news thread, that shows that a single P8I costs roughly as much as 5 x C295 MPAs for IN. To cover such a large area, we need higher numbers of aircrafts in first place, not only capability.

I think that sounds like using lightning bolts to scare or kill a bug. IMO, putting four or five armed guards on every ship with long range rifles and quality training would be a much more cost effective way of eliminating piracy, than maintaining modified armed maritime patrol aircrafts to be available at short notice 24/7/365 in the IOR.

But how long does it take the ship to reach the vessel that is under attack? To speed this up, the frigats uses naval helicopters, but as stated, MPAs are faster, have more range and endurance, so whenever an attack is reported, the MPA would be the first to reach there but currently has no offensive capability against such small targets.

 

[sancho]

By 5th gen fighter u mean N-FGFA, which will only be possible around 2025 or so, so i don't think IN will wait that much for a MMRCA aircraft unless F-35 is ordered (but of course it comes with conditions which IN will never adhere to).

Or AMCA and according to last reports, IAC 2 will only be inducted after 2020, so in time for naval FGFA for sure and if we develop AMCA only for the navy, we could get it done in time as well.

So, is it possible that IAF buys combat jets on IN's budget & operate itself, just like it does for the armed helos, but I don't think IN will give a go ahead for that, it wants to have it's own say as far as maritime affairs of India are concerned.

No, IAF already has the comand of shore based maritime attack fighters, IN only for MPAs, all their fighters are just meant for carriers and not for costal defence. With the new multi role capabilities of IAF fighters, they will even increase their capabilities in this role, up to heavy marimtime attack of MKI with Brahmos. IN will never get a chance here, since they have other roles and not the same capability. So if needed, they will request IAFs support to attack an enemy surface fleet just like they do it now.

it can become large enough to have a direct effect on any land conflict in which India is involved.

The numbers are not important for that, but if these are needed in a land conflict. For example, in any war against Pakistan, IN will play only a very limited role. Once because PN is way too small to be a threat, secondly, because only a few important targets are at the coastlines. But when it comes to projecting the power to another area not around India, IN of course will be the main player, but as stated, there are still other countries with more capabilities than IN (US, Russia, France, China and in future UK again).

 

[janon]

But how long does it take the ship to reach the vessel that is under attack? To speed this up, the frigats uses naval helicopters, but as stated, MPAs are faster, have more range and endurance, so whenever an attack is reported, the MPA would be the first to reach there but currently has no offensive capability against such small targets.

What I meant is that every merchant ship or tanker should have a few armed guards on board, to prevent getting attacked in the first place. Then they won't need navies to protect them. If we made it clear that every Indian flagged vessel will have a few heavily armed and trained guards, then no pirate will dare to attack an Indian flagged ship and take the risk of getting shot. These guards could be recruited from the crew itself and trained, if necessary. Much simpler and cheaper than ensuring the ready availability of patrol aircrafts and naval ships in such a large region of water. Also, that would lessen the burden on the Indian navy of escorting ships and conducting anti piracy patrols, and free up resources to defend the shores or practise for warfighting, rather than policing.

 

[surya kiran]

Last Indian Navy Tu-142ME Overhaul Completed: key.Aero, Military Aviation

According to the initial plan, all 8 planes were supposed to pass modernization within 6 years and be ready in 2010-2011. After capital repairs the service life of each aircraft becomes 16 years longer. The 15 to 16 yr life extension points to 2025/2026.

Also, the Tu-142 remains the only plane believed to be able to launch the BrahMos. The Sukhois remains under IAF control and also its quite some time away from being able to launch the BrahMos. The p8-I, afaik, cannot launch the BrahMos. Wrt, the IN will want an operational air launch version for the BrahMos.

Upgraded ASW aircraft Tu-142ME was delivered to Indian Navy

 

[sancho]

What I meant is that every merchant ship or tanker should have a few armed guards on board, to prevent getting attacked in the first place. Then they won't need navies to protect them. If we made it clear that every Indian flagged vessel will have a few heavily armed and trained guards, then no pirate will dare to attack an Indian flagged ship and take the risk of getting shot. These guards could be recruited from the crew itself and trained, if necessary. Much simpler and cheaper than ensuring the ready availability of patrol aircrafts and naval ships in such a large region of water. Also, that would lessen the burden on the Indian navy of escorting ships and conducting anti piracy patrols, and free up resources to defend the shores or practise for warfighting, rather than policing.

Ah ok, but that is the responsibility of the shipping companies all over the world and not of India or IN. But when we talk about INs responsibility in the Indian Ocean area, anti piracy is one of the most important today. Also, we have seen pirats not only attacking ships, but even Island and Resorts at the Seychelles or even up to the Laccadives. On the other side there is a piracy problem in the Straight of Malacca as well and we can't predict when they will attack the Nicobar Islands too. That's why early detection and engagement of these small targets is very important for IN as well!

According to the initial plan

That was scrapped long ago and the upgrade was smaller than initially planned, sometimes stated because Russian asked too much money for a deep modernisation. The competition where P8I came out as a winner came after that only.
It is the same upgrade and replacement schedule that our forces do with AN 32 (replacement planned by MRTA from 2015 onwards), Sea King helicopters (S70/NFH90), Kilo subs (Project 75I), or these MPAs (LRMR and MRMR aifcrafts). Their life and capabilities will be extended to remain in service until the last new procurement can be inducted.

 

[surya kiran]

That was scrapped long ago and the upgrade was smaller than initially planned, sometimes stated because Russian asked too much money for a deep modernisation. The competition where P8I came out as a winner came after that only.
It is the same upgrade and replacement schedule that our forces do with AN 32 (replacement planned by MRTA from 2015 onwards), Sea King helicopters (S70/NFH90), Kilo subs (Project 75I), or these MPAs (LRMR and MRMR aifcrafts). Their life and capabilities will be extended to remain in service until the last new procurement can be inducted.

How do they plan to launch the BrahMos beyond that? The poseidon is out of question. Then are we saying that the naval air arm will not carry the capability to launch it beyond 2020?

 

[tvsram1992]

EW fighters are meant for SEAD attacks, which means only for a special role in a special land attack situation, so we defenitely won't need 2 or 3 squads, let alone that INs carriers won't have 2 or 3 squads on their carriers.

IN trying to be an offensive force needs a decent amount of Fighters with specialized roles . We have tradition to buy more than 50% aircrafts that what is required keeping various things in mind like crashes , training . I never said they are only for carriers . Growlers can be used for attacking Enemy ships and networks . They can be based in coast near to Pakistan so that we can block Pakistan shores . We can create an electronic shield if we can have such number .

Secondly, Growlers are normally not for sale for export customers and if at all, only for close allies of the US, that's why only Australia will get them so far, while Boeing wanted to offer a Growler lite for export customers like India.

Considering we were offered P8I , F35(not confirmed officially) and US growing relation with India we can get growlers if we buy in decent numbers that is 2-3 squadrons .

Thirdly, with the improvement of AESA modules, electronic attack will soon be done by internal systems and modules placed around the fighter and not external pods anymore. That means just like you can see at Rafales SPECTRA system, any fighter will be able to be used in such roles and with such capabilities, not dedicated fighters anymore.

A dedicated fighter can jam the enemys radar effectively when compared to Multirole fighter that has different task . Moreover growler has AESA , better avionics and can counter advanced radars . No aircraft comes close to Growler in its role .

 

[RISING SUN]

I have great respect for French forces,so I will guess on the basis of French navy.
They have around 60 fighters(multi role included),3 AWACS role, maritime patrolling 22, 9 surveillance, 27 training planes, 45 maritime heli, 13 search & rescue, training & utility 18.
The French Naval Aviation has four components:
The air complements of the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle: Rafale, Super Étendard and E-2 Hawkeye
Naval patrol air units: Atlantique 2
On-board (ship) helicopters: Dauphin, Panther, Lynx, Alouette III
Support units

 

[arp2041]

I have great respect for French forces,so I will guess on the basis of French navy.
They have around 60 fighters(multi role included),3 AWACS role, maritime patrolling 22, 9 surveillance, 27 training planes, 45 maritime heli, 13 search & rescue, training & utility 18.
The French Naval Aviation has four components:
The air complements of the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle: Rafale, Super Étendard and E-2 Hawkeye
Naval patrol air units: Atlantique 2
On-board (ship) helicopters: Dauphin, Panther, Lynx, Alouette III
Support units

The important thing to note here is that, French Navy will be having only one nuclear powered carrier in the future also. US will obviously be leading the race with 11 ACs & another dozen mini ACs, British RN has plans for 2 QE class aircraft carriers but IMO they will finally induct only 1 as there are massive budget cuts in place for defence in UK. China currently having one carrier (i dint called it Aircraft carrier since currently it has no aircrafts ), maybe in a decade or so they plan for another 2 making PLAN a 3 carrier navy. But IN has sure shot plan of a 3 aircraft carrier force in a decade or so, with INS viky induction around 2013, IAC-1 around 2017 & IAC-2 around 2025. Thus i reiterate my point that IN Naval aviation will be the force to watch out for

 

[sancho]

How do they plan to launch the BrahMos beyond that? The poseidon is out of question. Then are we saying that the naval air arm will not carry the capability to launch it beyond 2020?

The only plan, if there is one, is for Mig 29Ks and possibly Rafales with a future lighter version of Brahmos, that's why Russia offered to integrate an air launched Klub missile to Mig 29K, similar to those that IN uses from the Kilo subs.
Currently Brahmos plays only a role for IN in regard to their surface vessels, because not a single of their subs can use it except coming SSBNs, or SSNs. Which means if air launched maritime attack capability is needed, it will be IAFs MKIs that will provide that.
Faster, harder to detect, self defence capable and can be deployed in numbers, all advantages why using Brahmos from the Tu 142s isn't a good idea. However, I still hope that IN gets a hand on SLAM-ER missiles, to be used from P8Is, maybe MRMR aircraft too.

Considering we were offered P8I , F35(not confirmed officially) and US growing relation with India we can get growlers if we buy in decent numbers that is 2-3 squadrons .

Not going to happen, they don't share such techs, not even the UK or Israel get them.

A dedicated fighter can jam the enemys radar effectively when compared to Multirole fighter that has different task . Moreover growler has AESA , better avionics and can counter advanced radars . No aircraft comes close to Growler in its role .

You need to compare what the Growler really offers and what SPECTRA offers, than you will understand it. The Growler lite that was offered from Boeing without the ALQ-99 jammers hardly offers anything a "normal" Rafale wouldn't have today.

 

[RISING SUN]

I have great respect for French forces,so I will guess on the basis of French navy.
They have around 60 fighters(multi role included),3 AWACS role, maritime patrolling 22, 9 surveillance, 27 training planes, 45 maritime heli, 13 search & rescue, training & utility 18.
The French Naval Aviation has four components:
The air complements of the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle: Rafale, Super Étendard and E-2 Hawkeye
Naval patrol air units: Atlantique 2
On-board (ship) helicopters: Dauphin, Panther, Lynx, Alouette III
Support units

Indian navy
We have around 29 fighters(Multi role included), 13 maritime patrolling & warfare, 16 training planes, 20 transport, 37 maritime heli, 61 utility heli, 9 AEW.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Indian navy
We have around 29 fighters(Multi role included), 13 maritime patrolling & warfare, 16 training planes, 20 transport, 37 maritime heli, 61 utility heli, 9 AEW.

29 fighters? Mig-29K/KUB order is for 45 atleast.