Can you stick to the topic of the thread please? This thread isn't about poverty rates of India & Pakistan, it is about Indian Muslims & their relationship with Pakistan.
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Well, there is also another possibility that he is misinformed about the statistics, just as Bush was misinformed that Iraq had WMDs & Saddam had ties with Al-Qaeda. My point is, it is probably an honest mistake by the Pakistani PM, & I've given you statistics from credible sources that prove my viewpoint. Can you show me detailed statistics from a Pakistani source that show that 35000 innocent civilians have died? I don't know why you are making such a big deal out of this.
Can you stick to the topic of the thread please? This thread isn't about poverty rates of India & Pakistan, it is about Indian Muslims & their relationship with Pakistan.
I had left the topic after seeing your post.. but you especially edited your post and now want to prolong the topic that might prove embarrassing for you.
Neverthless here is statement from your ISPR...almost one and half year old.
"Rawalpindi: Over 30,000 Pakistani civilians and armed forces personnel have been killed or injured since the global war on terror began in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, while over 17,000 terrorists have been killed or captured, the country’s military said Thursday."
‘Global war on terror claims 30,000 Pakistani casualties' | ummid.com
Are they also misinformed?
Again, I'm waiting for detailed statistics that show how many casualties took place every year. Statements are not really evidence for anything, statistics & actual information is.
Just like Salman Rushdie who hates Islam and Pakistan to the core.
Why are there so many athiests from INDIAN "muslim" familes and why do they hate Pakistan so much?
I wonder why.
Just as I said before, it was a blessing in disguise that most hindustani muslims stayed back in hindustan. Pakistan is for people of Punjab, Afghania (K-P/FATA), Kashmir, Sindh, and Balochistan.
These kind of statements are too common by you guys and they are so far from being true!
India started with mass poverty, pathetic literacy rates and a nation with so much diversity, it was difficult to hold it together. Industrialization was nothing more than a few textile mills and a steel plant started by Tata for the most part.
Even India started almost from scratch. Our leaders just focused on building basic infrastructure first and the license Raj resulting from socialist policies and the massive petty corruption held us back for decades.
Now, I am not saying that you didn't have a middle class. It couldn't have been a large size. Enough to make comments like "there would have been rows of BMWs, Land Cruisers, but you still have your Marutis and Ambassadors”!
What kind of wealth do you need for owning such cars? A hundred times the average income of a common Pakistani? How many such Pakistanis could have been there? How would they earn that kind of money honestly? What professions would earn you that kind of money?
Let's understand that these cars would be owned by the top cream de la cream of Pakistan, not the middle class. So he was comparing apples to oranges when he made the comparison to Marutis.
They may have a penchant. You just can't produce that kind of money out of thin air when the average national income is 600-700 US dollars.
It is obvious that the money was concentrated in a small number of hands in Pakistan. These people can't be called "middle class" when they are in the top 0.5% bracket of the country (and owning >70% of the wealth).
It was not a question to you!
It was an obvious fact. A few hundred or a few thousand people don't represent a country of hundreds of millions.
In 2006-07, I have personally seen lots of "high performance" cars. Everything from Mercedes to BMW to Lancers to SUVs.
Of course, they would be a drop in the ocean compared to the millions of smaller cars like Marutis, Santros etc, which almost every family in Delhi owns.
I can bet that Delhi alone has a bigger car market than the whole of Pakistan!
Abut beggars, you may be right. It is a menace and a big business. They make better money than many working class people!
No denying this. Even if the urban Pakistan has double the income of rural, it would still be in the range of 1000 USD/year.
Far from owning a small car, leave alone luxury cars. The size of your car market will tell you the size of your middle class.
I know the car penetration in Pakistan was about double of India before the Maruti revolution. I am glad that so many more Indian can afford a four wheeler even if a basic one.
Much better than a few thousand owning BMWs and the large majority not even able to afford two wheelers.
I see that more than 3.5 million cars were sold in India last year. Pakistan doesn't figure in the top 20, the last country in the list sold 700,000 cars.
I have not. I still know on an average how the country progressed and how their average incomes, literacy, industrialization etc. progressed. Also that you never had land reforms and a few families (22?) continued to own the vast majority of the land.
The size of Pakistan's economy in 1947 can be visualized by the fact that her first budget projected a revenue of Rs 150 million and govt had to borrow Rs 80 million from the Habib Bank to pay salaries to the govt employees and meeting other contingencies.
Only 159 companies were incorporated in the area presently comprising Pakistan. The first industrial project launched in independent Pakistan was Dentonic Tooth Powder and inauguration of Pakistan's first bottled drink, Pakola was such a big event that it was performed by the prime minister of Pakistan.
But that does not mean that there was dearth of capital or Muslims lacked entrepreneurial skills since several Muslim families and groups were well entrenched in business and industry. Several entrepreneurs who came to be dubbed as 22 families in the 1970s apparently had considerable economic power at the time Pakistan was born. Just like the Marwaris who joined All India Congress, several of these Muslim businessmen either joined Muslim League or financed the struggle for Pakistan. This was particularly true of Memon business community which presented people like Sir Abdullah Haroon and Sir Dawood Adamjee, as rallying point for Muslim industrialilsts and businessmen.
The Indian books about the business communities of India have mentioned Sir Adamjee Peerbhoy who made his first millions in late 19th century as a shipbuilder. Sir Dawood Adamjee, the founder of present day Adamjee group had established a commodity trading company in Rangoon, Burma in 1894, followed by a big match factory and rice mills, also in Rangoon and a jute mill at Calcutta in 1937. Sir Dawood Adamjee, thus headed a big industrial set up and export trade of rice and jute which allowed him to play a Birla-like role in Pakistan Muslim League.
Haroons had migrated to Karachi from Gujrat towards the end of last century and made their fortune in second-hand clothing and sugar trading in the beginning of the 20th century, winning the title of Sugar King. The family launched its first indutrial project, Moti Sugar Mills in Bihar province in 1940. Haroon House in Karachi was the centre of meetings for Pakistan movement in Sindh.
Ahmad Dawood, another Memon businessman who was to emerge as the uncrowned king of Pakistani businessmen under President Ayub Khan, is reported to set up 26 offices and shops in various cities all over India and was on the verge of setting up a viscos plant as a joint venture with leading Hindu industrialist Nagin Das Phool Chand when Pakistan came into existence and he decided to migrate to Pakistan along " with his Chevy car".
Saigols had set up a Rubber Shoes Factory at Calcutta in 1930 and were planning their first textile mills, also at Calcutta, when Pakistan was born. The machinery was shifted to Pakistan to set up Kohinoor Textile Mills at Faisalabad on personal intervention of the country's founder Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. Nasim Saigol of the Saigol group claimed in an interview with the author that the first Letter of Credit opened with State Bank of Pakistan was for the setting up of Kohinoor Textile Mills at Faisalabad.
Habib and Sons, the principal company of the House of Habib was incorporated in 1920 and was leading in metal business including gold bricks with the " Loin of Ali" embossed on it. An advertisement in daily Dawn of August 15, 1947 boasted that Habib Bank has a paid-up capital of Rs 5 million and deposits of Rs 122 million. Yet it was considered as " the least of several projects the Habibians had developed in India".
Bawanies had set up their first hosiery mill at Rangoon in Burma, in 1931. They were first among the Memons to open a purchase office in the Japanese city of Kobe and contribute in the construction of Japan's first mosque. Ahamd Karim Bawany, founder of the Bawany dynasty, also financed the first Pakistani delegation to United Nation in 1950, under the leadership of Dr Amanullah Khan.
In 1947, Mian Mohammad Ismaeel of the Colony group was operating a chain of 14 ginning factories and four flour mills while work was in progress on Colony Textile Mills which was to become the first textile mill to be commissioned in independent Pakistan.
Hashwanies slated to join the rank of the 22 families in the 1990 had migrated to Karachi from Gujrat in 1885 and were representing Raleigh Brothers, in a joint venture with two Hindu partners who left in 1947, leaving the business to Hussain Hashwani, father of sadruddin Hashwnani who incorporated Hassan Ali and Company.
The 1970 edition of the Biographical Encyclopedia of Pakistan, 1970 published by international Publisher ( Pakistan) Ltd, Lahore included sketches of several Muslim industrialists who were running business in India before Pakistan was born. For example the Encyclopedia describes Abdul Sattar Ahmad son of Seth Ahmad Abdul Karim of Jetpur, as one of the very few families who took to industries before independence. When Pakistan was born, Abdul Sattar and his family migrated to Pakistan " leaving behind vast moveable and immovable property". Sattar himself moved to Dhaka where he set up Sattar Match Factory at Shampur, 4 miles from Dacca, Karim Jute Mills, Dacca Jute Mills and Karim Commercial Company.
Another remarkable person mentioned in the Encyclopedia is Khan Rahim Baksh Khan who was " the first Muslim industrialist to venture into manufacture of paint industry, by setting up a paint plant in Hyderabad, Deccan, India, in 1933 which was to provide nucleus of five industries in a new industrial township called Rahimabad near Hyderabad Deccan. On migration to Pakistan, he set up a paint manufacturing factory at Karachi in 1949, added two more, one in Karachi and one in East Pakistan. He set up a joint venture in Lebanon, managed by Buxlay Paints, became the biggest exporter of paints from Pakistan in 1970 and was reported to have set up Khan Rahim Paint Research Institute in Karachi. Nothing is known today about Khan Rahim Baksh or his institute.
Amir Sultan Chinoy who died in Karachi on January 21, 1998 was famous for interest in horse racing and the famous Manjri Stud Farms Ltd. After migrating to Pakistan he founded Pak Chemicals Ltd, the first major chemical industry to be established in the country. His father, Sir Sultan Chinoy is reported to have introduced Shell Petrol, Chevrolet cars, wireless telegraphy and broadcasting equipment in India.
Other industrialists of considerable means and repute who streamed to Pakistan at the time of independence included Ahmad Jaffer, Mohammad Ali Rangoonwala, C M Latif of Batala Engineering Company, Dost Mohammad Haji Monnoo and Habib Ahmad Haji (Aragwala) of Batava, Kathiawar, who was running grain and oil seed business in Calcutta with 50 branches all over India.
Syed Maratib Ali was a well known name in the undivided India and his mansion Ashiana in Lahore was counted among the wealthiest houses in th region. Tabanis had set up their offices in Singapore, Japan and London as early as 1916.
A microscopic business community from Chiniot in Central Punjab became a dominant industrial force in the 1990. At the time of creation of Pakistan they were exclusively engaged, with the exception of Colony / Maula Baksh group, in trade of hides and skins.
A few Muslim industrialists stayed back, prospered and flourished in India. For example the Monopoly Commission of India in 1965 identified one House of Amin, as one of the leading industrial groups of India. It was trilateral venture by B D Amin, an agriculturist from Gujrat, with partners T K Jaggar and A S Kotibakshkar. The descendents of the two Hindu partners however, claimed that no group with this name ever existed.
But the names mentioned above were random success stories of Muslims in the Indian Sub-continent. It was the creation of Pakistan in 1947 which gave the opportunity of life time to people who were to grow into the 22 families in the 1960.
" It was like gold rush of United States", G M Adamjee observed in an interview with the daily Dawn in 1995 while talking about the opportunities created by the creation of Pakistan, as an independent state on the world map.
Majority of 22 the families of the 1970's Pakistan, started as traders and exporters and only 17 of 100 people at the top in industry interviewed by Gustav Papanek in the 1960 reported to have experience in indutry prior to 1947. First and Second five years Plans also noted that it were people in the trading who had surplus capital and, therefore, they should diversify in manufacturing and industry. The Korean boom of the early 1950's helped these traders in reaping fortunes and enter manufacturing.
Signals about a massive concentration of wealth started emitting from the economy as early as 1959, when a Credit Inquiry Committee of State Bank of Pakistan, revealed that 222 depositors were making use of 2/3rd of the total credit facilities offered by the banking system. It was around this time that Papanek in his first study established that of the nearly 3,000 individual firms in the country, 24 individuals, firms and companies controlled nearly half of the industrial assets.
But the question of monopolies exploded wth full force when in his famous speech, Dr Mahboob ul Haq, Chief Economists, Planning Commission, told a meeting in Karachi that economy of Pakistan had come to be dominated by 22 families who owned 66% of the total industrial assets, 70% of insurance and 80% of banking. His list of the top seven included Saigols, Habib, Dawood, Colony, Adamjee, Crescent and Valika.
Prof Lawrence White who, at that time was working at the USAID office in Pakistan, measured the concetration of wealth on the basis of firms listed on Karachi Stock Exchange and found that 43 families or groups controlled 98% of 197 non-financial companies, accounting for 53% of the total assets. According to White, the top four (Saigols, Dawood, Adamjee and Amin) controlled 20% of total assets, the top ten families controlled one third of the total while the top 30 owned over half of the listed assets.
The concentration of wealth and iniquitous regional development was to become the breeding ground for separatists of East Pakistan and Bhutto's nationalization.
Again, I'm waiting for detailed statistics that show how many casualties took place every year. Statements are not really evidence for anything (they're pretty meaningless), statistics & actual information is.
India got the better deal from the partition and not to mention how it conned Pakistan out of areas with their double play.
also india got aircraft carrier, gnat british jets, all the royal indian army, airforce and navy was dumped on india, all pakistan could get was the piece of territory and few british raiway tracks and bridges
How would you know?
Its not like you have conducted extensive economic surveys in Pakistan or have actually visited the country. Pakistan started with nothing, India got everything on the other hand and we created a middle class in a short span of time. Like I said, a number of people who did not have nothing were soon moving up the ladder and I am witness to this fact.
What sweeping generalization, I used to attend parties, events and other get together's in Pakistan where the car parks were a sight to see. Everyone from the middle class to the upper class had a lot of disposable income and similarly Pakistani's had a penchant for spending big.
I am not here to conduct difficult research for you, am I?
Call Dewan motors who are the official sellers of BMW in Pakistan and they will be able to provide you with statistical information.
Dewan Motors Private Limited - BMW Importer Pakistan
Certainly a lot more than Delhi which I visited in 2006/7, there was not an exotic or high performance vehicle in sight and I was living in Connaught place/Rajiv something place.
Though I gotta give you, I have never seen so many beggars in my life.
It might have been but the fact remains that you could see the wealth on the streets of urban Pakistan a lot more than you would in India.
There is a major difference between rural and urban Pakistan. Though the rural parts remained backwards, the urban areas underwent rapid modernization and a lot of people benefitted as a result.
I have refrences from your sources to back up 'such statements', common sense would prevail if you used it.
Tell me have you visited Pakistan?
also india got aircraft carrier, gnat british jets, all the royal indian army, airforce and navy was dumped on india, all pakistan could get was the piece of territory and few british raiway tracks and bridges