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Indian LCH, new threat for Pakistan in Siachin and Kashmir?

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I don't doubt the Viper is a treat to fly but I can't see any reason to not believe the latest Apache (E) is the finest and most technologically advanced such machine in existence. The Viper might be more agile and pleasing for the pilot to fly but in terms of capability the AH-64E is ahead.

+ would be interesting to see Longbows on Vipers but I don't think any operational unit anywhere in the world has it.

Not just a treat to fly, but also a beast in combat. AH-64E isn't ahead. It depends on how you use it. Like I said before, that's coming from the horses's mouth. They're very similar in armament, performance and avionics. But you have to remember the Viper is essentially a brand new craft.
The US are the only ones to field both at the moment.
 
so sorry. yes you are getting the blk3 (E) variant. the info i looked at was old (about a few months)i did not pay to much attention to the specifics after that. now i know your getting 22 ah-64E's(apaches) and 15 ch-47F's(chinooks), either that or jane's lie's a lot.
India moves to sign off on Apache, Chinook deals - IHS Jane's 360

:tup:
That's right, 22 AH-64Es (with an option for 11 more) for the IAF, 39 for the IA and 15 CH-47F (with more to follow) for the IAF.
 
Rustom or LCH?

It was unclear which part of my post you were referring to. I will cover both.

Any kind of machine built for systematically killing people is a waste of time, money and effort. Yeah, I know, I have been given this argument before, that some of the military technologies have augmented other technologies, paved the way of progress, but I just don't buy it!

As for my college mates, I don't know exactly what they are working on right now. I will check that.
 
It was unclear which part of my post you were referring to. I will cover both.

Any kind of machine built for systematically killing people is a waste of time, money and effort. Yeah, I know, I have been given this argument before, that some of the military technologies have augmented other technologies, paved the way of progress, but I just don't buy it!

As for my college mates, I don't know exactly what they are working on right now. I will check that.

Thanks for that.
 
The British AH-64E will be more powerful than the American variant. The US AH-64E is powered by a T700-GE-701D, producing 1900HP. Whilst the British variant is RTM322 01/12 engines produce 2100HP. Note, we (the UK) are getting the blk 3 variant via upgrade of the blk2 variant which we already have.
just wanted to get it out there.
 
dont worry we will take owr chances worry about your armoured columns and personell on high altitude battle grounds :sniper: :butcher:


even LCH should be last of your worries as onli PA doesnt have short medium & long range SAMs and so called high calliber anty AA guns and man portable ATGMs i guess i dont need to give you the detail about IA .... good luck :devil:

Our armoured columns can even bring down incoming PGM & projectiles now it will be not easy for IAF's jets and helicopters to attack easily.

not a good idea it service ceiling is to low for siachin . and it's payload is not much either if you compare it to the z10 or lch. the z-10 has a wz-9 engine the wz-16 is not being fitted on the z-10 yet.
check the specs here
Harbin Z-19 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
below is a pic of a z-19 it has 4 hardpointsView attachment 267262

pic of z-10 with wz-9 engine
View attachment 267263

To attack enemy at high altitudes on mountains PAA is already using Fennec multipurpose helicopters.


fennec.png



Eurocopter Fennec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia

Also multipurpose Bell 412 are also capable to operate at high altitudes and they can carry TOW ATGM & other stuff if needed.

Bell 412 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Our armoured columns can even bring down incoming PGM & projectiles now it will be not easy for IAF's jets and helicopters to attack easily.



To attack enemy at high altitudes on mountains PAA is already using Fennec multipurpose helicopters.


View attachment 267466


Eurocopter Fennec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia

Also multipurpose Bell 412 are also capable to operate at high altitudes and they can carry TOW ATGM & other stuff if needed.

Bell 412 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the fennec's is a good option and is already in use up near the Karakoram mountains inservice for mountain rescue among other things. but it weapons payload is very low and unjustifiable
heli-skiing-karakoram-1.jpg


the bell 412 is a better option but its a work-horse
 
Not just a treat to fly, but also a beast in combat. AH-64E isn't ahead. It depends on how you use it. Like I said before, that's coming from the horses's mouth. They're very similar in armament, performance and avionics. But you have to remember the Viper is essentially a brand new craft.
The US are the only ones to field both at the moment.
I think the respective differences between the AH-1 and AH-64 are a result of the differences in requirements by the US Army and USMC. The Apache is bigger (with more range) than the AH-1 because the USMC needs it to fit onboard US Navy LHD/LPD. Although, over the years, their respective upgrades have led to a lot of convergence in terms of the systems and weapons capability.

There is very little to choose from but the Apache, in my honest opinion, just edges it because of the mast-mounted Longbow radar (not operational on any other platform to date), longer range and superior protection from ground fire.

The US Army has always been the more technology driven force and the USMC has always had to rely on on sub-optimal equipment (not that that is what the AH-1Z is but this is just the nature of the US Army vs USMC).

The British AH-64E will be more powerful than the American variant. The US AH-64E is powered by a T700-GE-701D, producing 1900HP. Whilst the British variant is RTM322 01/12 engines produce 2100HP. Note, we (the UK) are getting the blk 3 variant via upgrade of the blk2 variant which we already have.
just wanted to get it out there.
Nothing has been agreed right now. There is still some debate as to whether the Rolls Royce/AW option will be taken or the UK will simply by the US Army "E" standard off the shelf in a FMS deal like India. The proposed UK-specific options are going to HUGELY inflate the price and it is unclear if this is digestible for an already financially strained budget.
 
the fennec's is a good option and is already in use up near the Karakoram mountains inservice for mountain rescue among other things. but it weapons payload is very low and unjustifiable
View attachment 267486

the bell 412 is a better option but its a work-horse

Fennec can carry enough fire power to provide support and good for armed recon, but in war bells will be firing TOWs and other weapons on enemy positions in high mountains if dedicated helicopters are not deployed.

I hope PAA integrate Cirit 70mm laser guided rockets and Mizrek-U on both platform to teach enemy lesson they will not forgot in case of war.
 
Nope.

The Viper has newer avionics e.g. the TSS system (Viper) v the Arrowhead system (Apache).
Bro, TSS system is intended to replace the older NTS system in AH-1 series attack helicopters. Arrowhead system is being developed independently and exclusively for AH-64 series attack helicopters.

TSS system is intended to bring avionics of AH-1 series on par with the avionics of AH-64 series in specifications and/or capabilities to enable AH-1 series attack helicopters to tackle latest (and emerging) threats just like their Apache counterparts since US cannot afford to keep USMC ill-equipped for latest and emerging threats. This is like "der aaye, durust aaye."

Evolution of AH-64 series attack helicopters with passage of time: http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/5f/95c33182c4a70b2394793b178b09295f.jpg

AH-64 series attack helicopters are also equipped with the state-of-the-art Longbow radar system which grants them unparalleled coverage and range. However, AH-1 series attack helicopters are equipped with a different radar system.

Some comparisons regarding weapons;
The Apache's 30mm chain gun is more effective than the Viper's 20mm Gatling tribarrel in the air-to-ground role due to its larger and more powerful shells, but it is inferior in a hypothetical air-to-air engagement due to its low rate of fire.
You are assuming that the M230 gun used in AH-64 series have inferior accuracy which is unlikely. M230 gun is not just designed to fire more lethal rounds but also have larger payload, and its movement can be controlled from the pilot's helmet. Wherever the pilot of AH-64 series attack helicopter looks, the M230 gun automatically shifts in that direction.

So even if M197 gun have higher rate of fire (which is questionable), it will run out of rounds sooner. In contrast, M230 gun not just inflicts more damage per round but will also last longer during firing due to its larger payload (700 rounds for M197 vs. 1200 rounds for M230).

The Viper carries the AIM-9X missile, The AH-64 never carries Sidewinders in actual service even though it can fire them. Unlike the Viper, because it can only carry them on its underwing pylons, in place of normal air-to-ground armament. That is why it carries the inferior Stinger missile, which is much smaller and can be mounted on the wingtips.
The AH-1Z *DOES* carry Sidewinders in service, one on each wingtip.
Also the AH-1Z can carry its full standard combat load AND Sidewinders... and the Apache can carry its combat load... OR Sidewinders.
The standard load for both would be AH-1Z with 2 Sidewinders + Ground Attack vs Apache with 4 Stingers + Ground Attack.
Bro, standard armament for both AH-1 series and AH-64 series is largely same. However, armaments (of both) can be modified for a specific role and/or as per demands of the customer. AH-1 series and AH-64 series attack helicopters are generally utilized for different roles and by different branches of US armed forces; therefore, armaments of both (in use) may vary accordingly.

AH-1 series attack helicopters are likely to be equipped with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles because these missiles are suitable for mission priorities of USMC for its attack helicopters in general. However, US army have different mission priorities then USMC for its attack helicopters in general and give preference to AIM-92 Stinger missiles accordingly.

You acknowledged that AH-64 series attack helicopters can be equipped with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles but you also claim that this is possible with trade-off in its armaments. However, I have noticed that AIM-9 Sidewinder missile launchers are mounted at the tips of the wings of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter so why the same cannot be done for AH-64 series attack helicopter?

FYI, AH-64 series attack helicopters carry AIM-92 Stinger missiles independently of its standard armament, at the tips of its wings. I believe that AIM-92 Stinger missile launchers can be replaced with AIM-9 Sidewinder missile launchers.

Check this link and focus on the tips of wings: http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_AH-64D_Apache_UK_Frontal_w_Royal_Marines_lg.jpg

In the image above, you will notice the capacity for accommodation of additional armament at the tips of (both) wings of an AH-64 series attack helicopter. These are the points where AIM-92 Stinger missile launchers are installed in AH-64 series and AIM-9 Sidewinder missile launchers are installed in AH-1 series.

It also has six weapons pylons as opposed to the Apache's four.
Covered above.

The Viper is also slimmer and less of a target, showing less of a profile.

Its more faster, has a better rate of climb, a great range and better fuel efficiency.

Capable. Flexible. Multi-mission. The ultimate in attack helicopters. The powerful AH-1Z delivers state of the art dynamics, weapons and avionics to incorporate the latest in survivability. With anti-armor capability, it engages and defeats the broadest array of threats at standoff ranges that defy imagination.
AH-1 series attack helicopters prioritize maneuverability over protection.

In contrast, AH-64 series attack helicopters prioritize protection over maneuverability due to their front-line roles; however, trade-off isn't significant.

Performance-related data of both AH-1Z Viper and AH-64E Apache Guardian vary in sources on the web, therefore it is difficult to argue who have superior performance. I get the impression that US tends to conceal some information about AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter. However, I am aware of the fact that AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter is equipped with more powerful engines and MTOW potential.

Actually I asked the Apache pilots and they said there was nothing between them, aside the Viper was more agile and faster. :p:
I found this: CUTAWAY: AH-1Z Viper enters production as substantially new aircraft
 
I think the respective differences between the AH-1 and AH-64 are a result of the differences in requirements by the US Army and USMC. The Apache is bigger (with more range) than the AH-1 because the USMC needs it to fit onboard US Navy LHD/LPD. Although, over the years, their respective upgrades have led to a lot of convergence in terms of the systems and weapons capability.

There is very little to choose from but the Apache, in my honest opinion, just edges it because of the mast-mounted Longbow radar (not operational on any other platform to date), longer range and superior protection from ground fire.

The US Army has always been the more technology driven force and the USMC has always had to rely on on sub-optimal equipment (not that that is what the AH-1Z is but this is just the nature of the US Army vs USMC).

Yes the Apache has a greater range, but in terms of size they are more or less the same. The Viper has a thinner profile though. The mast mounted long bow is available with the Viper, it's wing mounted mate.
I agree that the US army has always in the past had the edge in terms of diversity and power of weapons systems but US is determined to strengthen the modern USMC. Remember they will be flying the F35C, along with a whole host of other modernisations. The US pretty much sees the USMC as a firm part of its fighting force, the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force led the attack on Iraq.
 
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ah pakistani guys why do u worry so much
when these will come to their maximum height they might fell by themselves or if the they are dhiit hadi we have anza mk 3 which range is 6 km ( might be very near in siachen ) will make toast of these coffin helis.
 
Bro, TSS system is intended to replace the older NTS system in AH-1 series attack helicopters. Arrowhead system is being developed independently and exclusively for AH-64 series attack helicopters.

That's true bro, but the TSS is something specifically also developed for the Viper. The Viper will be the first to deploy it.

TSS system is intended to bring avionics of AH-1 series on par with the avionics of AH-64 series in specifications and/or capabilities to enable AH-1 series attack helicopters to tackle latest (and emerging) threats just like their Apache counterparts since US cannot afford to keep USMC ill-equipped for latest and emerging threats. This is like "der aaye, durust aaye."

Evolution of AH-64 series attack helicopters with passage of time: http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/5f/95c33182c4a70b2394793b178b09295f.jpg

AH-64 series attack helicopters are also equipped with the state-of-the-art Longbow radar system which grants them unparalleled coverage and range. However, AH-1 series attack helicopters are equipped with a different radar system.

That's correct, regarding the development of the TSS. But as mentioned before the longbow radar is fully available for the Viper, so that advantage is negated.

You are assuming that the M230 gun used in AH-64 series have inferior accuracy which is unlikely. M230 gun is not just designed to fire more lethal rounds but also have larger payload, and its movement can be controlled from the pilot's helmet. Wherever the pilot of AH-64 series attack helicopter looks, the M230 gun automatically shifts in that direction.

No bro I didn't assume that. I complimented the Apache's gun, but did mention the role it was more suited to doing. As for the rest, the Topowl helmet mounted system does that for the viper as well i.e. "slave" a weapon system, so the includes all the stuff about the pilot/weapons operator looking and the gun pointing there.

Please see the video;

TopOwl® helmet-mounted sight & display for helicopters | Thales Group

So even if M197 gun have higher rate of fire (which is questionable), it will run out of rounds sooner. In contrast, M230 gun not just inflicts more damage per round but will also last longer during firing due to its larger payload (700 rounds for M197 vs. 1200 rounds for M230).

The M197 does have a higher rate of fire and the difference is huge, 1,500 rounds for the M197 v 625 rounds for the M230. As for running out of rounds, that depends on the skill of the operator, standard practice states you hold for 30-50 round bursts.



Bro, standard armament for both AH-1 series and AH-64 series is largely same. However, armaments (of both) can be modified for a specific role and/or as per demands of the customer. AH-1 series and AH-64 series attack helicopters are generally utilized for different roles and by different branches of US armed forces; therefore, armaments of both (in use) may vary accordingly.

AH-1 series attack helicopters are likely to be equipped with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles because these missiles are suitable for mission priorities of USMC for its attack helicopters in general. However, US army have different mission priorities then USMC for its attack helicopters in general and give preference to AIM-92 Stinger missiles accordingly.

Of course bro, I have stated that. It is all about roles.


You acknowledged that AH-64 series attack helicopters can be equipped with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles but you also claim that this is possible with trade-off in its armaments. However, I have noticed that AIM-9 Sidewinder missile launchers are mounted at the tips of the wings of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter so why the same cannot be done for AH-64 series attack helicopter?

At he moment the

FYI, AH-64 series attack helicopters carry AIM-92 Stinger missiles independently of its standard armament, at the tips of its wings. I believe that AIM-92 Stinger missile launchers can be replaced with AIM-9 Sidewinder missile launchers.

Check this link and focus on the tips of wings: http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_AH-64D_Apache_UK_Frontal_w_Royal_Marines_lg.jpg

In the image above, you will notice the capacity for accommodation of additional armament at the tips of (both) wings of an AH-64 series attack helicopter. These are the points where AIM-92 Stinger missile launchers are installed in AH-64 series and AIM-9 Sidewinder missile launchers are installed in AH-1 series.

Yes the Apache can mount of the sidewinders on its wingtips, and I agree its more down to mission environments as to why they come with stingers instead. Although there isn't any plan for Raytheon to change that.




AH-1 series attack helicopters prioritize maneuverability over protection.

In contrast, AH-64 series attack helicopters prioritize protection over maneuverability due to their front-line roles; however, trade-off isn't significant.

The Viper has been made to be far tougher than its predecessors, with advanced alloys and welding and can withstand 23mm cannon fire.

Ducommun to support USMC AH-1Z Cobra helicopter programme - Naval Technology

But let's face it, when one of those SAM warheads slams into either of the two it is will be goodbye.



Performance-related data of both AH-1Z Viper and AH-64E Apache Guardian vary in sources on the web, therefore it is difficult to argue who have superior performance. I get the impression that US tends to conceal some information about AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter. However, I am aware of the fact that AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter is equipped with more powerful engines and MTOW potential.


I found this: CUTAWAY: AH-1Z Viper enters production as substantially new aircraft

Correct the AH-64E will come with the newer T700-GE-701D engine (1,994 SHP) , performance parameters haven't been measured yet.
Thanks for the link.

We are more or less in agreement i.e. it's about, their performance and payloads are similar. I don't want to go off-topic again. What I'll do is add our posts to the Viper thread in the army section.
 
ok lets get serous shall we :azn:

now all the pakistanies are saying just one thing that we have anza and we need not worry LCH but what is the job of LCH in the first place :azn:

LCH is designed as a very high altitude anty tank and anty personell helli copter which was designed after the limitations of other high altitude helies were learned in kargil war (just like cobra and apache were designed after USA learned the limitations of huey choppers in vietnam)

now lets look at a given situation

what is the type of seeker & flight cieling & comabt range of of ANZA Manpads :azn:


which accoring to wikipedia is infra red homing seeker with 5KM range and 4km flieght cieling and for infra red seeker chaffs and flairs are potent enof and its a known fact go google it while flight cieling of fully loaded LCH is 6.5 KM(2.5KM more than ANZA MK3s flieght cieling) and helina ATGMs have a range of 8KM in short: your beloved anza... khair janee do i hope you can calculate that yourself even if the combat range flieght cieling in 15% (4.6KM FC&5.75CR)more even then ANZA MK3 wont be able to bring down LCH try googling and then we shall talk OK :azn: :sarcastic:
How hard it is for you to figure it out that we have many options to encounter LCH? You are arguing for no reason.
 
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