Indian involvement with anti-state elements in Pakistan

[IceCold]

Ice Cold Sir, I do not think Pakistan military is strong enough to defeat Indian army decisively. Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

We must be pragmatic and strengthen our soft influence like economy and trade, of course with good economy our military will also become strong. Thus with our increased importance in the world, our voice will be heard and we shall be treated with respect

The question isnt about how strong is the pakistan army, its about what has to be done, you talk about strengthning our economy well yes we are but as for the influence no it doesnt have why because india on the other hand is bigger then us, has a larger economy then us and not to forget the tilt the major power (US) has towards india. The solution to it is only military, we took part of kashmir by force and if we have to liberate the other part , it has to be by force no other solution is possible as we have seen it so far by talking. If you have the power take it otherwise leave it. its Simple

 

[NadeemAhmad]

What are you trying to say? That we are weak? Whats your point here?

If i might have heard this from an Indian i might have understood... but why are you going out of your way to tell us that our military is weaker than Indias? You must be forgetting that we too won many decisive battles. In the 1965 war we gained more land than India did. Anyway...

We should strenthen our economy and trade but whose voice in this world is being heard anyway? Do the Americans our allies care about Kashmir! Saudi has great influence in the muslim world and just has to declare jihad on its enemies! They have a strong economy, trade and importnace in the world! Is their voice being heard? Thing is that India itself should understand that it is wrong to hold a people who want freedom against their will... but if they don't then i think that war might be the only option although that does not mean that we would like to take that course of action until necessary!

Dimension Sir, Kindly read my post carefully. I said that the Pakistani army currently cannot gain a decisive victory over India. I am extremely proud of our armed forces. In spite of our lack of numbers, we have proved time and again that we can take on India.
However, I feel that it would be foolish to attack India in current circumstances, especially since both countries have nuclear bombs. We must not jeopardize the future of our people.

We must instead look within ourselves for strength, and make Pakistan into a developed nation.
Look at Germany, Britain, France etc. They are small countries, but have a large influence in the world. Only when our armed forces can take on the big european powers, and the world's economies depend on ours, will our presence be recognized in the world.

 

[NadeemAhmad]

The question isnt about how strong is the pakistan army, its about what has to be done, you talk about strengthning our economy well yes we are but as for the influence no it doesnt have why because india on the other hand is bigger then us, has a larger economy then us and not to forget the tilt the major power (US) has towards india. The solution to it is only military, we took part of kashmir by force and if we have to liberate the other part , it has to be by force no other solution is possible as we have seen it so far by talking. If you have the power take it otherwise leave it. its Simple

Ice Cold Sir, I agree. The solution will be brought about by military power. However, I do not believe that it will be brought about by outright war. Our military should become strong enough to intimidate our enemies.

We must one day be able to negotiate with India from a position of Strength.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Military pulling back: “They’ve had a chance to regroup and reorganise,” according to an unnamed Western military official in Pakistan. “They’re well equipped. They’re clearly getting training from somewhere. And they’re using more and more advanced tactics.”

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

With NATO, in Afghanistan, and Pakistani soldiers, in FATA, dying in the area, leaving out the possibility that those two might be involved, the finger of suspicion keeps pointing towards India (and possibly Russia?).

 

[haviZsultan]

Dimension Sir, Kindly read my post carefully. I said that the Pakistani army currently cannot gain a decisive victory over India. I am extremely proud of our armed forces. In spite of our lack of numbers, we have proved time and again that we can take on India.
However, I feel that it would be foolish to attack India in current circumstances, especially since both countries have nuclear bombs. We must not jeopardize the future of our people.

We must instead look within ourselves for strength, and make Pakistan into a developed nation.
Look at Germany, Britain, France etc. They are small countries, but have a large influence in the world. Only when our armed forces can take on the big european powers, and the world's economies depend on ours, will our presence be recognized in the world.

You are trying to tell me that Pakistan should become a highly industrialized nation and other nations should be dependent on us for exports! Well thats going to take a long, long time... People have to understand that Pakistan will not become such an important player in the world arena just tomarrow! But yeah we should and actually have started moving in that direction towards industrialization! Is Saudi Arabia being heard? There are countless nations that are still not being heard dspite their economy being strong! Aren't many nations dependent for oil on Saudi Arabia or Iran? Are they being heard????? Man, the attitudes towards us have changed! Nations that the world is dependent on are being ignored today!People don't give a damn about what nations say or what opinions they have! They just want to impose their views on others and end up on top!

Exactly both nations have nuclear bombs! If one nation had nuclear weapons there might have been something to fear however because both nations have nuclear weapons and don't want to suffer from them they will not use them! Nuclear war is unlikely! Everyone knows how dangerous nuclear weapons are and neither side is willing to make use of them!

All i am saying is that the solution for the issue of Kashmir might only be war if peace talks and negotiations fail... Now do you wish to contend that?

 

[ied_blast]

its a dog eat dog world out there ....geo politics is like that
both india & pak r backing rebel group in each others soil.

hope india come good in this game.....good luck to pakistan, once uncle sam gets out of
afghanistan.

 

[blitz]

Exactly both nations have nuclear bombs! If one nation had nuclear weapons there might have been something to fear however because both nations have nuclear weapons and don't want to suffer from them they will not use them! Nuclear war is unlikely! Everyone knows how dangerous nuclear weapons are and neither side is willing to make use of them!

All i am saying is that the solution for the issue of Kashmir might only be war if peace talks and negotiations fail... Now do you wish to contend that?

Yes i wish to contest that. You just contradicted yourself in your above two paragraphs. First you said neither side will resort to war because of nuclear weapons, and then you say if all else fails war will be waged.

So tell me please, what kind of force will the PA bring to bear on Kashmir and India that India will let go of Kashmir ? You do realise that Kashmir is mountainoues rugged terrain right ? So PA obviously cannot do a tank blitz and occupy IAK in a hurry. At best it will be a 'you capture this peak, i capture that peak' kind of fight, as long as its only infantry formations battling it out. Now if you do want to capture the whole of Kashmir by force, Salim sir or Niaz sir might know better, but id suppose it will take months and complete PAF air support for any PA incursion.

So the question arises, if PAF gets into action, will the IAF NOT involve itself ? Of course it will. So right there and there, you have a war going. Is Pakistan really that much in need of Kashmir so as to 'start' a nuclear war with India ? Now i know most of you are expats for whom Pakistan's 'glory' is worth more than the lives of '***** awam' of Pakistan [after all you would still be abroad cheering from the sidelines], but at least show pity for your fellow citizen, if not compassion.

 

[haviZsultan]

Yes i wish to contest that. You just contradicted yourself in your above two paragraphs. First you said neither side will resort to war because of nuclear weapons, and then you say if all else fails war will be waged.

Are you trying to make up stuff or is doing this sort of thing simply your nature? I said that neither side would resort to nuclear weapons in the case of a war! I also said war might be the only option to liberate Kashmir for the Kashmiri people! I did not say that we would wage war and ravage India. Pakistan is peaceful nation, not a nation full of war-mongerers like our barbarian neighbors who have the energy to come here every day and pick out our problems...

So tell me please, what kind of force will the PA bring to bear on Kashmir and India that India will let go of Kashmir ? You do realise that Kashmir is mountainoues rugged terrain right ? So PA obviously cannot do a tank blitz and occupy IAK in a hurry. At best it will be a 'you capture this peak, i capture that peak' kind of fight, as long as its only infantry formations battling it out. Now if you do want to capture the whole of Kashmir by force, Salim sir or Niaz sir might know better, but id suppose it will take months and complete PAF air support for any PA incursion.

Well you never know! If Kashmiris rise against Indian rule motivated by Pakistans wish to free Kashmir then you don't know what to expect! Remember how you had trouble with China and could'nt deal with them while you were engaged with Pakistan? India cannot fight on 2 fronts its said! And if all of Kashmir rises up against you then its goodbye to Kashmir i guess...

So the question arises, if PAF gets into action, will the IAF NOT involve itself ? Of course it will. So right there and there, you have a war going. Is Pakistan really that much in need of Kashmir so as to 'start' a nuclear war with India ? Now i know most of you are expats for whom Pakistan's 'glory' is worth more than the lives of '***** awam' of Pakistan [after all you would still be abroad cheering from the sidelines], but at least show pity for your fellow citizen, if not compassion.

Did I say that if PAF attacks IAF will do nothing? Or are you trying to make yourself believe that IAF will get involved as you doubt IAF's capabilities. Are you okay or did you fall into a ditch or something? Nuclear war? Woah! Do you think that both nations are willing to use nuclear weapons against the other? Now do you want to challenge that?


I'm rather enjoying this... yeah so Pakistans glory is worth more than the awam... Ya, ya whatever makes our neighbors happy... I will be here "cheering from the sidelines" celebrating the breaking out of a nuclear war while people are dying left and right... happy?

 

[blitz]

Icecold, lets debate. So you are saying that Pakistan will wage a conventional war to gain Kashmir ? Question is, where and how do you control the escalation ladder ? See i stated the scenario pretty clearly in my last post, but instead of countering it, you went on senseless tangents. I do not have the patience to engage in your circular reasoning with no head or tail, so i will state my points clearly and concisely.

Ways by which Kashmir can be liberated from 'evil yindoos' :

1. I will start from where i left off in my last post. PAF will need to be fully involved in case PA wants to forcibly and conventionally capture Kashmir, do you agree ? Does the PA and PAF have the requisite amount of power projection capability to be able to support hundreds of thousands of troops on rugged inhospitable enemy terrain, engaged in high intensity war and versus a much bigger and powerful IAF and IA ? Its a flat NO !!

2. Now in case of your scenario of native Kashmiris rising up in open rebellion, yes that is a possibility. I would also like to remind you that open rebellion and insurgency are two different things. But the slight problem is, that any indigenous revolt of any meaningful scale will be ruthlessly put down by the Indian Army. Now you surely do not assume that an open rebellion by rag tag Kashmiri militias would be able to take on the Indian state do you ? It won't.

3. Insurgency is the third option for Kashmiris. Kashmir has already been in the midst of an insurgency for the past 17 years, and so far it has not shown any tangible results for their cause. So i will take the liberty to assume that the present state of affairs is not going to lead anywhere for Kashmiris. Do you agree or disagree ?

If you can think of any more ways by which Kashmir can be liberated from 'evil yindoo' hands, then state them. But please do it in a tabular format.

And finally i would like to mention one last, but apparently very important fact here. China will not intervene for Pakistan's sake in case of open hostilities versus India. Let me say that again, China will not help by opening a 2nd front. It will provide covert logistics and military support yes. But frankly i doubt if China will even support Pakistan diplomatically. In case you are still clinging on to hope i will say one last time, China will NOT come to the rescue. Actions speak louder than words. If you disagree here, please ask more experienced Pakistani members of this board.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

If military power could solve the issue, then it could have been done long back.

60 years and still nowhere to go!

If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride!

Please observe the terrain and do not insult the brave soldiers and officers who have died for the cause. They and their Generals were not imbeciles and if you think you are better then please step forward and do the needful.

Stupid daydreams should have some parameters. And they should not insult the brave dead of either side.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

India cannot fight on 2 fronts its said!

Really?

Let us say that what you say is correct.

Then why is China, the greatest friend, fighting shy to do so, in every war?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz View Post
Yes i wish to contest that. You just contradicted yourself in your above two paragraphs. First you said neither side will resort to war because of nuclear weapons, and then you say if all else fails war will be waged.

Are you trying to make up stuff or is doing this sort of thing simply your nature? I said that neither side would resort to nuclear weapons in the case of a war! I also said war might be the only option to liberate Kashmir for the Kashmiri people! I did not say that we would wage war and ravage India. Pakistan is peaceful nation, not a nation full of war-mongerers like our barbarian neighbors who have the energy to come here every day and pick out our problems...

Now what exactly does the stuff in bold signify?

Not suggesting war. And war is the only answer!

It is Pakistan which stated that it would use nukes during the Kargil war. Remember?

 

[Spring Onion]

If military power could solve the issue, then it could have been done long back.

60 years and still nowhere to go!

If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride!

Please observe the terrain and do not insult the brave soldiers and officers who have died for the cause. They and their Generals were not imbeciles and if you think you are better then please step forward and do the needful.

Stupid daydreams should have some parameters. And they should not insult the brave dead of either side.

Agreed Sir and i dont think so any of the two countries would go for any conventional war.
Rest
If military power could have solved the issue, by now India would have tammed the Kashmiris and by now Pakistan would have get IHK.
So best is to find some mutual solution to the problem according to whishes of Kashmiris

 

[Bull]

Did I say that if PAF attacks IAF will do nothing? Or are you trying to make yourself believe that IAF will get involved as you doubt IAF's capabilities. :what::

What the hell was that?

Are you okay or did you fall into a ditch or something? Nuclear war? Woah! Do you think that both nations are willing to use nuclear weapons against the other? Now do you want to challenge that?:

We can afford to, can you?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Agreed Sir and i dont think so any of the two countries would go for any conventional war.
Rest
If military power could have solved the issue, by now India would have tammed the Kashmiris and by now Pakistan would have get IHK.
So best is to find some mutual solution to the problem according to whishes of Kashmiris

Jana,

You are right!

But each country has it own compulsions.

 

[Spring Onion]

We can afford to, can you?

How can yoy afford it Bull?

If you are saying that after using nukes India would wipe up entier Pakistan and India being big country will survive (the same old stupid notion).

Or if you are saying India can afford it economicaly ?