Indian Helicopter Discussion

[IND151]

Using an Apache for such purposes is a complete waste of resources. We have already established that firing a $100,000 USD Hellfire to take out a single terrorist or even a group of them is pointless, what the IA is doing right now with UAVs and ground based EO/FLIR has shown to be effective-the number of foiled infiltration attempts has skyrocketed and subesequently the number of militants coming in has plumated. If you want to go down the air-attack route I think a few ALH WSI will do the trick using their FLIR and then coming in with the 20mm cannon-no need to waste missles or rockets.

Or use a regular ALH with FLIR mounted and take advantage of a new purchase:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...barrel-machine-gun-ammunitio.html#post2626419

Man that would be a real welcome!!

correct explanation

 

[Sergi]

If money is more important than lives than surely what the IA is doing now is the most sensible thing.Using hellfire is expensive coz it is made for a different purpose but whats wrong in using cannon or rockets?

BTW Hellfire costs 58000$ which is 30 lacs approx...I am sure 30 lacs or 58000$ for a group of 6-7 terrorists is not expensive..The cost of even a single Army jawan killed will be more than that coz not only would the Army have to get a new soldier and spend lacs on his training but also give compensation to his family which will be close to 30 lacs.

Find some prices
Hydra 70 - unguided rocket - less than $1000 ( wasn't quoted exactly )
Hellfire - $54000
20 mm cannon rounds - 100 - $400

Military services look to advanced electronics - Military & Aerospace Electronics

Autocannon Ammunition

 

[Tshering22]

as far as the IAF is concerned they havent thrown in the towel yet...and this going to be long and perhaps dirty turf war...hope it doesnt affect the overall defence preparedness of the nation...

It is about time IAF behaves like a mature air force of a country that is looked upon at a global level for more international participation. Air forces in mature countries handle only fixed wing transport and combat divisions while attack helicopters and medium transport helicopters are always managed by the Army Aviation units.

This show of squabbling is very, very foolish by ACM Browne. I didn't expect this level of childishness from a mature and experienced person such as him. While he alone is not to blame, IAF must understand and come to terms with reality; in a conflict situation, getting cross-over commands from Army and IAF confuses the pilots, makes the embattled ground troops suffer and doesn't efficiently manage the battle scenario.

This has to stop. Even during Kargil, IAF and IA had been many times reported to be issuing contradicting commands, resulting in delayed supplies to the frontline. We don't want this to happen again.

I really hope that IAF understands this and doesn't behave like a jerk.

In fact, they should be the last people to argue; their fixed wing fleet currently is reliant only on three platforms while their backbone (MiG-21) has become a bane. Rather than focusing on fixed wing acquisitions to be expedited, they are arguing about a division that they really don't need to command by global standards.

If money is more important than lives than surely what the IA is doing now is the most sensible thing.Using hellfire is expensive coz it is made for a different purpose but whats wrong in using cannon or rockets?

BTW Hellfire costs 58000$ which is 30 lacs approx...I am sure 30 lacs or 58000$ for a group of 6-7 terrorists is not expensive..The cost of even a single Army jawan killed will be more than that coz not only would the Army have to get a new soldier and spend lacs on his training but also give compensation to his family which will be close to 30 lacs.

Hydra rockets are much cheaper. Heck, if DRDO speeds up even Heli-Na(G) can be a much much cheaper option. Hellfires are good but they are effing expensive.

We aren't a country that rich yet to spend so much and fill someone else' pockets.

 

[Tshering22]

Why can't the Armed forces have common arms, such as A - Army B - Air Force and C - the Joint Group, same should be between Navy and Air Force

Cross commands. A lot fo ground troops and even airmen have suffered in the past due to contradictory orders in the battlefield. And in a himalayan environment, this can be even more dangerous than the already existing dangers of the environment.

Having cross-commands of IAF, IA or IA and IN will always invite a lot of troubles.

IA's aerial wing is to provide CAS to the ground troops in case of conflict and evacuate injured soldiers away from enemy fire. Its secondary role as a part of fronts where it wins would be to ensure our territory remains ours and possibly be able to acquire captured territory without political intervention from civvie babus.

The IAF's primary role would be SEAD enemy radar stations, SAM batteries, anti-air artillery and engage with enemy air force jets, while denying aerial space and freedom to enemy long range bombers.

The IN's roles would involve in coordinating the entire sea battle, including interdiction and destruction of enemy ships, coastal assets, heavy utilization of air power to destroy flagships and lurking attack submarines, to ensure a port/station/ strategic blockade of assets and resources supplied to the enemy's ports and to ensure a rapid surrender/ceasefire/end of war whichever comes first at the enemy's end.

If the three arms realize their primary roles well and accept them maturely enough, we can ensure a strong, stable, dependable and combat-ready armed forces which will give the enemy N number of reasons not to attack us.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

It is about time IAF behaves like a mature air force of a country that is looked upon at a global level for more international participation. Air forces in mature countries handle only fixed wing transport and combat divisions while attack helicopters and medium transport helicopters are always managed by the Army Aviation units.

This show of squabbling is very, very foolish by ACM Browne. I didn't expect this level of childishness from a mature and experienced person such as him. While he alone is not to blame, IAF must understand and come to terms with reality; in a conflict situation, getting cross-over commands from Army and IAF confuses the pilots, makes the embattled ground troops suffer and doesn't efficiently manage the battle scenario.

This has to stop. Even during Kargil, IAF and IA had been many times reported to be issuing contradicting commands, resulting in delayed supplies to the frontline. We don't want this to happen again.

I really hope that IAF understands this and doesn't behave like a jerk.

In fact, they should be the last people to argue; their fixed wing fleet currently is reliant only on three platforms while their backbone (MiG-21) has become a bane. Rather than focusing on fixed wing acquisitions to be expedited, they are arguing about a division that they really don't need to command by global standards..

You mentioned some very valid points..The IAF Chief's behaviour got me surprised and after that you have him claiming to be the most important force in kargil and a decision changer in 62...I mean what the F*** is this...the Army paid the price in blood and so many troops lost their lives....so many battles were won beacuse of bravery of our jawans...For tiger hil victory our jawans were lying helpless on steep slopes for 17 days without any food.

 

[Tshering22]

But to respond to this decision, which is a welcome, I feel that the Army will suddenly find a dire shortage of helicopter pilots.

Does anybody know whether Wg. Cdr. Unni (chief test pilot of LCH) has retired? I have a feeling that he may be transferred to Army Aviation to train young pilots.

 

[INDIAISM]

Well, starting from no choppers, to light choppers to attack choppers, army has come a long way, the next logical step would be to have it's own fixed wing a/c

I think Greed should not get into the army top bosses & they should now be content with the attack choppers with no further expansion into IAF's domain, but i read that AAC wants some light fixed with a/c for surveillance & communication purpose, hope there is an end to it somewhere.

& Yes, each arm of the armed forces is getting such a massive expansion that we need more & more training institutes to get the best out of this expansion (certainly many more pilots), i think next 10 years will be great for us (i.e. defence enthusiasts), IN's own aviation wing will get 500 a/c by a decade, IAF will have close to 900 fixed wings in about 10-15 years & now AAC, way to go man

As far as AAC is concerned these are the nos. as of now:

197 Light Helicopters
179 LCH
79 ALH WSI
maybe 50-60 Apache
& many more UAV's

Buddy you forgot to add
100+ Hal Dhruv
50+ Mi17V

And ya i agree with ''Coldheart Aviator'' that Indian Army Strike Corp should be provided with fixed wing fighter jets for CAS role....

 

[arp2041]

Yeah why not

I would love to see A-10 with the IA.You know it would be a extremely good thing for the Strike Corps...Our tank formations backed by Apaches,A-10s and AF a/cs with CBU-105...Who would wanna mess with them?

I think in a decade's time we will be needing a thread in PDF titled - IA AAC + IN Naval Aviation v/s PAF, since IAF will be an overkill


P.S. Did i read it correctly or u called Tejas as A-10?? Are tejas called A-10 also

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

But to respond to this decision, which is a welcome, I feel that the Army will suddenly find a dire shortage of helicopter pilots.

Does anybody know whether Wg. Cdr. Unni (chief test pilot of LCH) has retired? I have a feeling that he may be transferred to Army Aviation to train young pilots.

Thats what i was reffering too.Already the we have a shortage of officers and we need so many Pilots on top of that and for Pilots we wuld need only Science graduates so things will get complicated.

Regarding Wg. Cdr Unni..If you give me a few weeks i will let you know.

I think in a decade's time we will be needing a thread in PDF titled - IA AAC + IN Naval Aviation v/s PAF, since IAF will be an overkill


P.S. Did i read it correctly or u called Tejas as A-10?? Are tejas called A-10 also

No i was reffering to this deadly monster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II

 

[INDIAISM]

I think in a decade's time we will be needing a thread in PDF titled - IA AAC + IN Naval Aviation v/s PAF, since IAF will be an overkill


P.S. Did i read it correctly or u called Tejas as A-10?? Are tejas called A-10 also

No he is talking about U.S fighter Aircraft A-10 Thunderbolt II tailor made for CAS role...But he forgot to mention that Like F22 A-10 is also not available for international customers....

 

[Abingdonboy]

But to respond to this decision, which is a welcome, I feel that the Army will suddenly find a dire shortage of helicopter pilots.

Does anybody know whether Wg. Cdr. Unni (chief test pilot of LCH) has retired? I have a feeling that he may be transferred to Army Aviation to train young pilots.

The success or failure of training new pilots won't be down to one single man! The Indian armed forces are proffeional and mature enough to be able to ramp up training and increase instructor numbers where nessercary. I think the pilot shortage issue is a non-starter, India has 1.2 BILLION people and I can't see the AAC struggling to find young guys who want to fly Apaches or LCHs!! Of course such induction and training will take years but then so will inductions so the two should come together perfectly. I'm sure the MoD wouldn't have made this descion if the AAC had shown the ability to absorb the equipment and actually utilise the added capabilities. But the AAC is defeinclty coming into a "golden era" of growth in pilots, a/c and capabilies

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

No he is talking about U.S fighter Aircraft A-10 Thunderbolt II tailor made for CAS role...But he forgot to mention that Like F22 A-10 is also not available for international customers....

If i knew that i would have mentioned.Do you have a link or something for this?

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

The success or failure of training new pilots won't be down to one single man! The Indian armed forces are proffeional and mature enough to be able to ramp up training and increase instructor numbers where nessercary. I think the pilot shortage issue is a non-starter, India has 1.2 BILLION people and I can't see the AAC struggling to find young guys who want to fly Apaches or LCHs!! Of course such induction and training will take years but then so will inductions so the two should come together perfectly. I'm sure the MoD wouldn't have made this descion if the AAC had shown the ability to absorb the equipment and actually utilise the added capabilities. But the AAC is defeinclty coming into a "golden era" of growth in pilots, a/c and capabilies

I respect your intentions but the thing is that currently the IA is short of 10,500 officers on top of that you need Science graduates for flying.Now one aircraft requires more than 2 pilots...I dont have an idea of Military Aviation but airliners require 10 pilots for a single aircraft.

So things are not looking simple as of now...The Army would have to take some steps.

 

[arp2041]

The Union defence ministry after plenty of deliberations has finally decided to hand over control and operation of attack helicopters to the army, notwithstanding the stiff opposition from the Indian Air Force. This would mean that all future attack helicopters would be with the army and its aviation corps would operate, pilot and also maintain the attack choppers.

The tussle between the two Services over the issue had come out in the open when IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne said the country cannot afford to have these "little air forces" doing their own things.

Air Marshal (retd) B K Pandey (PVSM) explains to Rediff.com that this is something the army cannot be faulted with for having asked for control over the attack choppers.

"One must also understand the army's point of view. The idea of the army is that whenever they carry out an operation on the ground they would need intimate air support. The army feels that if the control is with the Indian Air Force the response time would suffer," he says.

"The decision of the government to hand over control of attack choppers to the army was made sometime back. When the army had procured the light combat choppers from the HAL it was pretty clear that the government was handing over some control to the army," he says.

"I do not fault the army's demand for control over attack choppers. An operation undertaken by the army would need to be carried out to precision. With their own air support, they feel that the coordination and the response time would be better. Prior to this they had to wait for a clearance from the IAF and all this led to a certain amount of delay," Air Marshal Pandey points out.

"However, this decision should not been seen as if the air force is losing all control. Out of the 22 Apaches, a certain amount of choppers would remain with the air force. Also one should not think that the air force would become defunct after this decision. The air force would continue to do its work such as precision attacks, destruction of radar installations and also striking at terrorist camps. The army would only have a direct control over choppers during a ground operation".

"This should also not be seen as a shocking decision. In the past too the air force has handed over control of its aircrafts. They have handed over their reconnaissance aircrafts to the Indian Navy. The navy today is also getting the P8 I which again would be under their control. Also the IAF had handed over choppers such as the Chetak and the Cheetah to the army."

"This in my view would be a step in this sequential development of events that have been taking place. The government of India [ Images ] did find the demand by the army as a legitimate one and hence handed over control of the attack choppers to the army," he notes.

"Now with regard to the ego clashes, I would like to say that there will be many. But it will not come in the way of an operation. Such major decisions cannot be taken based on ego clashes and the government has studied the issue carefully before taking such a decision. There is an objective view that needs to be taken in such matters of national interest. However, the army must not treat this as a victory over the air force. It is merely the acceptance of ground reality," he points out.

"In any major war it will be the air force which will commence action. The first step in a war would be to neutralise the air power of the opponent. Although we debate the lack of air power being used in the 1962 war and also the hesitation to use the air force during Kargil [ Images ], today everyone knows that air power will commence operations during a war. There cannot be any hesitation in using air power during future wars. Hence, let us not make this into an ego battle. It is an acceptance of the ground reality and the importance of each wing of the armed forces remains intact," Air Marshal Pandey notes.

Attack choppers for army: 'Acceptance of ground reality' - Rediff.com India News

 

[Abingdonboy]

Thats what i was reffering too.Already the we have a shortage of officers and we need so many Pilots on top of that and for Pilots we wuld need only Science graduates so things will get complicated.

Regarding Wg. Cdr Unni..If you give me a few weeks i will let you know.



No i was reffering to this deadly monster.

Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the A-10 ever did come to India it would rightly be a part of the IAF-you can't have such slow,low-flying and lumebering assets moving foreward with the IA without significant back up from the IAF's fighters. Addtionally the operation of the Thunders would be counter the the IA's own policies and belifes wherein their aviation assets are deployed as foreward as possible. The A-10s just like the IAF's fighters need fully fledged AFBs to operate from and can't be operated like the AAC's rotary wing assets nevermind the logistical and training factor. The thinking just doesn't fit. And anyway the IA should not be pushing for fixed-wing assets these should remain in the possession of the IAF other wise the ACM's comments on "mini-air forces" is valid.


Anyways the A-10s will not be coming to India they are outdated and not required by India.