What's new

Indian Brahmos missle crashes in Mian Channo

It's always best to plan for the worst case than be sorry. A wrong assumption carries a huge risk which is not entertainable by any nuclear power. Whatever makes you think I am a nationalist?
1. You are right. Its best to plan for the worst. In this case, the worst was rogue actors trying to start a war, not India attacking Pakistan - in which case the escalatory pattern would have been much different. Latest Bloomberg article confirms my suspicions.

2. Your over-the-top language led me to believe that you are more than just a nationalist. I shall reconsider my opinion based on your future posts.
 
.
Increase your knowledge and grow up
stop ridiculing yourself . I have asked a valid question. It seems you are in some kind of superficial arrogance as if you are the sole person in Pakistan who knows about missile technology.

If you don't know anything then go to some other thread and discuss gullu butt
 
. .
It was part of a general agreement to return all territory, to revert to status quo ante, the way things were, before the war.

In 1971, that was not followed; Pakistan kept some Indian territory, India kept some Pakistani territory. Specifically, Turtuk was administered by India from 71 on.

Haji Pir was lost to us at Tashkent.

✌️

It may have affected various other aspects, including a disinclination to violence. Not this; this was the result of specific arrangements.

Again, that was not the major factor.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Shastri was not elected by the communists, but by the Congress party, so how leftists came into this is not clear.

Pakistan is a good nation, or at least an independent self-governing nation, that has been very unfortunate with its leaders.

In my personal opinion, this is not correct. I can explain if you can listen.

The best advice, you would have given to the poster, to whom you are responding, should have been that he shall refrain from posting at 4:45 AM. :p: :p: :p:
 
.
You folks are keep changing your goal posts, cold start/hot start/no first use/first use, ask your policymakers/planners to get on something, and then announce it. We used to keep our words.

Not even able to safeguard your sensitive assets. is that your pride?

Note: You are free to respond, I will not restrict you, this is PDF and you are entitled to your expressions. Naturally, I don't know what will be your reaction.
According to the top Hindutva ideologue Swamy, a Hindu mind is always faltering and swaying, and never gets settled! Hence, they're always in a hesitation...
 
.
I will request people to stick to the topic. Lots and lots of unrelated topics being discussed whereas the main post which is the most serious current topic on its own is being ignored?

I was wondering if someone has found a cctv footage of the incident? At mach 2.8 a normal cctv might just not capture anything but who knows? I have been searching youtube but no luck so far finding any good videos related to this incident.
 
.
Come on people it's not too difficult to start a new thread instead of derailing an existing one....
 
.
“That a practice claimed to be essential to the religion has been carried on since time immemorial or is grounded in religious texts per se does not lend to it the constitutional protection unless it passes the test of essentiality as is adjudged by the Courts in their role as the guardians of the Constitution,” it maintained.
Hey Joe, since the thread has already taken a diversion i would like to point out a potential problem for future if you go by the quoted part.
For example Namaz/prayers is mentioned in Quran however there is no single method mentioned on how to do it. Same goes for Mosques and namaz/prayers together. Next time someone might point it out and next thing you know, mosques will be banned as well (I know you would think i am exaggerating).

So if it is compulsory per Quran, then women who do not practice it are doing a sin....isn't it?..... why don't Islamic clerics issue fatwa on it?... I can see majority of Muslim women don't do it.
Why are you provoking him? What is your obsession to what women follow and what they don't?
 
.
If you don't pay attention, nobody can help you.

Yes I'm not paying attention to soft sanghi justification when it comes to hijab ban when he is perfectly ok with sikhs carrying kirpaan in airports/planes. Hijab is first, now lets wait from another fatwa from secular Indian courts. By end they will say breathing isn't mentioned in Quran so muslims shouldn't do it either.
 
.
It was part of a general agreement to return all territory, to revert to status quo ante, the way things were, before the war.

In 1971, that was not followed; Pakistan kept some Indian territory, India kept some Pakistani territory. Specifically, Turtuk was administered by India from 71 on.

Haji Pir was lost to us at Tashkent.

Per my understanding, India wanted to keep the territory that it won in 1965, and was willing to let Pak keep the territory that it had won (with *maybe* some adjustments). However, Shastri went to Tashkent and was put under pressure by USSR [they wanted to play a honest broker - so much for their friendship]. So, Shastri agreed for full exchange of territories.

In his book, Kuldip Nayar has written an event that happened the night he died, which made Shastri realise (with full force) the "treachery" [lack of better words] he had committed....and he died owing to that burden. I am intentionally not writing that event here.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Shastri was not elected by the communists, but by the Congress party, so how leftists came into this is not clear.
Communists had sizeable presence both inside and outside parliament at that time.

Pakistan is a good nation, or at least an independent self-governing nation, that has been very unfortunate with its leaders.

I am sure - regular pakistanis are good human beings and do not wish bad to India or to other neighbours. I am pretty sure the same applies to regular Chinese; Russians; Afghans etc etc. But that is the not the way nations work.

In my personal opinion, this is not correct. I can explain if you can listen.
Please write your opinion. You have my e-mail-id as well. Believe it or not, I want to be proven wrong.
 
.
It’s like a Sikh who decides not to wear a turban, it doesn’t change the fact that it is mandatory for them.
It isn't.

Only the five K's are mandatory for them.

See how easy it is to slip up?

he is perfectly ok with sikhs carrying kirpaan in airports/planes.
Again, the kirpan is not something that can be taken away from a Sikh.

Communists had sizeable presence both inside and outside parliament at that time.
Not enough to form the government, or to put out a government. They never had that many.
 
. .
It will help members to understand how seriously the matter was considered if I reproduce relevant parts of it for your reading.

Laying down the first judicial declaration by a constitutional court on the essentiality of hijab in Islam, the Karnataka high court on Tuesday declared that the right to wear a hijab is not constitutionally protected as an essential religious practice.

A full bench of the high court held that “the Holy Quran does not mandate wearing of hijab or headgear for Muslim women” and that there is no prescription in Quran on wearing hijab as an indispensable requirement of Islamic faith.

The Karnataka government argued before the bench led by chief justice Ritu Raj Awasthi that wearing of hijab is not an essential religious practice in Islam and that, even otherwise, the state is constitutionally empowered to issue prohibitory orders to impose reasonable restriction to the exercise of fundamental rights. Those protesting against the government mandated ban contended that hijab is an integral part of Islam and the ban is an egregious invasion into their religious freedom.

Upholding the state’s views, the bench, which also included justices Krishna S Dixit and JM Khazi, covered in its judgment intricate questions of how the Constitution of India protects religious freedom, the State’s right to impose restrictions on the exercise of right, and the role of the judiciary as final arbiter of what constitutes reasonable restrictions.

The 129-page judgment commenced its discussion by mapping out the contours of religious freedom as recognised under the Constitution. The bench referred to the rulings of the Supreme Court in the Kerala Education Bill case (1959) and in the SR Bommai case (1994) to point out how India welcomed people of diverse creeds, cultures and races to become the world’s most heterogeneous society.

The bench cited the apex court’s judgment in India Gandhi Vs Raj Narain, which explained the basic feature of secularism to mean that the State shall have no religion of its own and all persons shall be equally entitled to the freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion under Articles 25 and 26.

The high court, however, emphasised that for India, there is no official religion, inasmuch as it is not a theocratic State and practices “positive secularism”, which, it said, is not antithesis of religious devoutness but religious tolerance. “The State does not extend patronage to any particular religion and thus, it maintains neutrality in the sense that it does not discriminate anyone on the basis of religious identities per se,” said the high court.

It then talked about the limitations on the right to practise and profess religion, referring to Article 25(1), which states that subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion.

The bench underscored that the limitations imposed on religious practices on the ground of public order, morality and health would cover beliefs and practices even those considered essential or vital by those professing the religion.

“The text and context of this Article juxtaposed with others unmistakably show that the freedom guaranteed by this provision in terms of sanctity, are placed on comparatively a lower pedestal by the makers of our Constitution qua other fundamental rights,” held the bench, lending credence to a Supreme Court judgment in Sri Venkataramana Devaru & Ors Vs The State of Mysore (1957).

Highlighting the limits on religious rights, the bench also banked upon the Supreme Court’s 2018 judgment in the Sabrimala case to flag that the right to the freedom of religion is not absolute and that the State is empowered to make laws in religious matters, not confined to public order, morality and health.

Since the question of hijab being a part of essential religious practice was the bone of contention, the high court said, it was necessary to decide if wearing of hijab was made mandatory under Islam.

The bench cited the top court’s ruling in Acharya Jagdishwaranand Avadhuta and Ors Vs Commissioner of Police, Calcutta (1984) that elucidated essential part of a religion as the core beliefs upon which a religion is founded. “Test to determine whether a part or practice is essential to a religion is to find out whether the nature of the religion will be changed without that part or practice,” said this judgment.

Referring to the Sabrimala judgment, the high court noted that an essential religious practice must form the cornerstone of religion itself and has to be binding nature of the religion itself. “That a practice claimed to be essential to the religion has been carried on since time immemorial or is grounded in religious texts per se does not lend to it the constitutional protection unless it passes the test of essentiality as is adjudged by the Courts in their role as the guardians of the Constitution,” it maintained.

According to the high court, the Supreme Court judgments in the Sabrimala case and the Triple Talaq case (2017) paved the way for a “paradigm shift in the approach to the concept of essential religious practice”, by laying down that an essential religious practice should also be in sync with constitutional values. These two judgments noted that it is the duty of the courts to ensure that what is protected as an essential religious practice is in conformity with fundamental constitutional values and guarantees and accords with constitutional morality.

“Thus, a person who seeks refuge under the umbrella of Article 25 of the Constitution has to demonstrate not only essential religious practice but also its engagement with constitutional values...it is a matter of concurrent requirement,” held the HC bench.

Having formulated the legal points, the high court proceeded to ascertain whether hijab has been prescribed as an indispensable part of Islam, either by Quran or Hadith (records of words or actions of prophet Muhammad).

During the course of hearing, the versions of different authors on this scripture were cited. Following unanimity at the Bar as to its authenticity and reliability, the high court decided to rely upon “The Holy Quran: Text, Translation and Commentary” by Muslim scholar Abdullah Yusuf Ali. The bench also noted that the Supreme Court also lent credence to Ali’s commentary on Quranic injunctions while deciding the Triple Talaq case.

After discussing various verses from Quran, the high court held that “there is sufficient intrinsic material within the scripture itself to support the view that wearing hijab has been only recommendatory, if at all it is”.

Mentioning a specific chapter in Quran [...] which talks about a veil to cover the bosom, and modesty in dress, the bench said that wearing of hijab is “only directory” (directional) because of absence of prescription of penalty or penance for not wearing hijab and that the linguistic structure of verses supports this view.

“This apparel at the most is a means to gain access to public places and not a religious end in itself. It was a measure of women enablement and not a figurative constraint,” added the bench, citing Ali’s reference that the object was not to restrict the liberty of women, but to protect them from harm and molestation under the conditions then existing in Medina.

The high court bench further underlined: “The Quran shows concern for the cases of ‘molestation of innocent women’ and therefore, it recommended wearing of this and other apparel as a measure of social security. May be in the course of time, some elements of religion permeated into this practice as ordinarily happens in any religion. However, that per se does not render the practice predominantly religious and much less essential to the Islamic faith.”


It also said that wearing of hijab may not be religion-specific, as explained by Sara Slininger from Centralia, Illinois in her research paper “Veiled women: Hijab, religion and cultural Practice”. Slininger wrote that Islam was not the first culture to practice veiling their women and that veiling was already prevalent in societies like the Byzantines, Sassanids, and other cultures in Near and Middle East as a sign of a women’s social status.

“Regard being had to the kind of life conditions then obtaining in the region concerned, wearing hijab was recommended as a measure of social security for women and to facilitate their safe access to public domain. At the most the practice of wearing this apparel may have something to do with culture but certainly not with religion,” held the high court.

It added that the there is no other verses in the translation from which it could be inferred that hijab is mandatory in nature. “Whichever be the religion, whatever is stated in the scriptures, does not become per se mandatory in a wholesale way. That is how the concept of essential religious practice, is coined. If everything were to be essential to the religion logically, this very concept would not have taken birth,” asserted the high court.

Distinction from previous high court rulings

The issue of the dress code prescribed by CBSE for All India Pre-Medical Test (AIPMT) came for consideration before the Kerala high court in Amnah Bint Basheer Vs CBSE (2016). A single-judge bench of justice A Muhamed Mustaque cited Quranic injunctions and the Hadiths to hold that “covering the head and wearing a long sleeve dress by women have been treated as an essential part of the Islamic religion” and therefore, such religious attire should be protected under Article 25.

Distinguishing from this judgment, the full bench of the Karnataka high court said that not only was the Kerala high court not dealing with a case of school uniform as part of curricula, it simply resorted to a feasible alternative by directing personal examination of the candidates with the presence of one lady examiner. “This reasonable exception cannot be stretched too wide to swallow the rule itself. That feasibility evaporates when one comes to regular adherence to school uniform on daily basis,” said the bench.

It also pointed out that the single judge had himself stated in the order that there is a possibility of having different views or opinions for the believers of the Islam based on Ijithihad (independent reasoning) while the Karnataka high court’s views are now drawn from the opinions of Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s works that are recognised by the apex court as being authoritative in the Triple Talaq case.

The Karnataka high court held that this decision is not relevant for the adjudication of the present dispute, and warned the petitioners that any reliance on the Bombay high court judgment would prove to be a death knell to instances where the respondent educational institutions happen to be all-girl schools or colleges.

You wrote such a long post.....and not one of the people who responded to your post (till now) have either read or tried to understand it.

Pakistanis simply do not have the context to understand about India. or maybe, PDF pakistanis?? Actually - it is not a fault of those individuals. They just can not help it.

One pakistani senior here, (an expatriate of Pak) who has large number of relatives in India and have spent more than a decade this forum and claims to have many friends of India / Indian origin, has such wrong opinion about everything and anything India. Despite any info he is given, there is not way he is going to change even 0.00000000000000000000000001% of his thoughts about India.

That is the way things are........
 
.
This could use elaboration
I had mentioned in my post at that time that the courts were likely to apply the test of essential practice of religion, and that the hijab was unlikely to be found part of the essential practices.
 
.
For example Namaz/prayers is mentioned in Quran however there is no single method mentioned on how to do it. Same goes for Mosques and namaz/prayers together. Next time someone might point it out and next thing you know, mosques will be banned as well (I know you would think i am exaggerating).
So far, in one case, the court took the easy way out and treated the mosque in question as a piece of land in dispute. That was the Babri Masjid case, that ended up by the court refusing to take a stand and shifting it sideways.

There have also been petitions against prayers in the streets, blocking traffic, but those are still at the magistrates' courts levels.

I see that possibility as unlikely at this moment, but that is a personal opinion.

I can name, however, seven or eight cases of court interpretations of the essential practices, if you start another thread or direct me to the Members' Club or some such location.

For example Namaz/prayers is mentioned in Quran however there is no single method mentioned on how to do it. Same goes for Mosques and namaz/prayers together. Next time someone might point it out and next thing you know, mosques will be banned as well (I know you would think i am exaggerating).
So far, in one case, the court took the easy way out and treated the mosque in question as a piece of land in dispute. That was the Babri Masjid case, that ended up by the court refusing to take a stand and shifting it sideways.

There have also been petitions against prayers in the streets, blocking traffic, but those are still at the magistrates' courts levels.

I see that possibility as unlikely at this moment, but that is a personal opinion.

I can name, however, seven or eight cases of court interpretations of the essential practices, if you start another thread or direct me to the Members' Club or some such location.
Also there books written and perfected by generations of scholars on the Veil and Hijab such as Hijaab al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah and Awdat al-Hijaab. These books already come to the conclusion if it’s mandatory or not
My point was to inform those who wanted to know how these issues were adjudicated in fact in today's jurisprudential regime. This is neither to approve nor to disapprove of this method; it is to tell you this is what is done, and how it is done.
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom