Indian Astra Missile Still Needs Russian Tech To Find Targets !!

[Han Patriot]

Brahmos started out as a anti ship missile and Russia has quite a few of them so why will they want another one. It was India that was in dire need of a cruise missile even with limited range so we bought cruise missile technology from Russia and produced Brahmos.
That said, India has developed Brahmos beyond its Anti-ship role and seems like it is maturing into a supersonic ALCM. Russian Airforce is interested in that.




@WAJsal you may want to look at this. Troll and personal attacks are surely strong in this one

Could it be because Brahmos is a watered down version of an existing Russian missile. They then export it to you using a 'joint venture' model and then let you Indians shout to the world it's an equal partnership, but seriously the key components are all Russian. Without them, brahmos would just be 'blah at most'.

The difference with China is, we reverse engineered and improved upon Russian tech, we can build tht damn missile in China and nobody can stop us. That's called independence and self reliance.

Do you know what is worse than a copy cat? It is someone trying to copy the copy cat.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...na/reverse-engineering/slideshow/18510021.cms

 

[Shajida Khan]

Could it be because Brahmos is a watered down version of an existing Russian missile. They then export it to you using a 'joint venture' model and then let you Indians shout to the world it's an equal partnership, but seriously the key components are all Russian. Without them, brahmos would just be 'blah at most'.

The difference with China is, we reverse engineered and improved upon Russian tech, we can build tht damn missile in China and nobody can stop us. That's called independence and self reliance.

Do you know what is worse than a copy cat? It is someone trying to copy the copy cat.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...na/reverse-engineering/slideshow/18510021.cms

I am not an expert on cruise missile so I do not know if it is a water down version or souped up version, I just know from what has been posted in public domain. May be you have some definite documentation on this, so be kind enough to post it.

I have no idea what China is doing in cruise missile domain or even why is it relevant to discussion on Brahmos.

As far as reverse engineering goes, India didn't have to reverse engineer the missile as Russian provided the tech in the first place. We are certainly extending it from a anti-ship missile to ALCM. As you correctly mentioned it, by mastering and extending or improving tech you can become self-reliant. We are very much on the path to it and seems like Russian Airforce is also interested in buying the ALCM version of Brahmos.

There is nothing worse or better in copying. No one exactly had a grand orignal idea to being with. When it comes to say rocket technology, British copied from Indians (Tipu sultan's rockets), Germans copied from British (V-2), Americans copied from Germans (Redstone, operation paperclip), Russian copied from Germans(Nazi time scientists), Chinese copied from Russians (R-2 SRBM), Indian copied from Russians, American and Chinese (Space program, ballistic missiles and now cruise missiles).

 

[Han Patriot]

I am not an expert on cruise missile so I do not know if it is a water down version or souped up version, I just know from what has been posted in public domain. May be you have some definite documentation on this, so be kind enough to post it.

I have no idea what China is doing in cruise missile domain or even why is it relevant to discussion on Brahmos.

As far as reverse engineering goes, India didn't have to reverse engineer the missile as Russian provided the tech in the first place. We are certainly extending it from a anti-ship missile to ALCM. As you correctly mentioned it, by mastering and extending or improving tech you can become self-reliant. We are very much on the path to it and seems like Russian Airforce is also interested in buying the ALCM version of Brahmos.

There is nothing worse or better in copying. No one exactly had a grand orignal idea to being with. When it comes to say rocket technology, British copied from Indians (Tipu sultan's rockets), Germans copied from British (V-2), Americans copied from Germans (Redstone, operation paperclip), Russian copied from Germans(Nazi time scientists), Chinese copied from Russians (R-2 SRBM), Indian copied from Russians, American and Chinese (Space program, ballistic missiles and now cruise missiles).

So what did India learn from the technology Russia provided? Can you build the seeker and navigation system of the Brahmos? Can you build the ramjet motors? You were given 'joint venture' so the Russians can sell you a system below 300km, read on the MTCR.

Those are the critical technologies, otherwise anybody can 'integrate' the missile. It's just assembly work. I remember an Indian poster once said India didn't need to produce those components, as they are the system engineer who integrate those sub systems and he reckon it to be the most complicated work.

If it was a jv, then it should be an equal partnership right, which means the other partner should procure the product produced to lower the production cost, but it seems only India is buying this watered down version of the P800 Oniks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-800_Oniks

Then you have the Indians shouting, yay, we have the bestest missile on earth and it's a co-development. There was nothing co-developed here. The Russian most likely let you build the shell and paint it with an Indian flag to satisfy the local content requirements. Are you guys really so blind or choose to live in denial?

Of course they didn't need Brahmos, why wud they? Thay have better missiles and so do the Chinese. The CX-1 was a watered down version of the YJ-12 for export. You could argue we reversed the P800, but who cares, we have 100% control over production and yes we freaking make the seekers and the motors too.

And Tipu Sultan copied from the Chinese? LOL.

Now it seems the Indians are beginning to see the benefits of reverse engineering in building the technology base after years of 'transferring' technology from the West and Russia. I think by now you should have realized that no one is going to hand you tech on a silver spoon and feed you too.

 

[Han Patriot]

1) China wants manned space program, India says waste of money, useless, then now they want to go too.
2) When China want to go to moon, they launch Chandrayaan and it failed.
3) When China want to go to Mars and the Russian launcher exploded, India quickly announce they will go to Mars and went there just to save face for the failed Chandrayaan program.
4) When China organized Olympics, they wanted the Commonwealth.
5) When China reverse engineered, they laugh and said we copied without learning, and when our new systems build with those fruits of reverse engineering, they envied and now they say they should consider China's approach.

All your actions are reactions to China. My advice, plan your own path, don't just do things because you want to save face, just because we smacked you in the 60s.

 

[Shajida Khan]

So what did India learn from the technology Russia provided? Can you build the seeker and navigation system of the Brahmos? Can you build the ramjet motors? You were given 'joint venture' so the Russians can sell you a system below 300km, read on the MTCR.

Those are the critical technologies, otherwise anybody can 'integrate' the missile. It's just assembly work. I remember an Indian poster once said India didn't need to produce those components, as they are the system engineer who integrate those sub systems and he reckon it to be the most complicated work.

And Tipu Sultan copied from the Chinese? LOL.

Now it seems the Indians are beginning to see the benefits of reverse engineering in building the technology base after years of 'transferring' technology from the West and Russia. I think by now you should have realized that no one is going to hand you tech on a silver spoon and feed you too.

I do not have a direct evidence that Brahmos helped India to develop further cruise missile technologies but there are circumstantial evidence. Brahmos entered in service in 2006 and in 2007 India started another project called Nirbhaya which is a longer range cruise missile. Comparing the two projects I can see they use INS, possibly derived from Brahmos and GPS (IRNSS) based guidance system, again present in Brahmos. It also fills the gap of range, it is 1000 KM range missile. I guess there are your critical technologies.

Reverse engineering and JV are all means to an end. If JV can get us a technology, we will get it via JV. If someone refuses JV and yet sells us products, we can reverse engineer it. Sometimes both are used in in the same project.

1) China wants manned space program, India says waste of money, useless, then now they want to go too.
2) When China want to go to moon, they launch Chandrayaan and it failed.
3) When China want to go to Mars and the Russian launcher exploded, India quickly announce they will go to Mars and went there just to save face for the failed Chandrayaan program.
4) When China organized Olympics, they wanted the Commonwealth.
5) When China reverse engineered, they laugh and said we copied without learning, and when our new systems build with those fruits of reverse engineering, they envied and now they say they should consider China's approach.

All your actions are reactions to China. My advice, plan your own path, don't just do things because you want to save face, just because we smacked you in the 60s.

You are entitled for having your own opinion. BTW, the same can be said about China and USA. China is doing a lot of things just to be seen in having parity with USA. Infact in each of the items you can almost replace China with USA and India with China.

 

[Han Patriot]

I do not have a direct evidence that Brahmos helped India to develop further cruise missile technologies but there are circumstantial evidence. Brahmos entered in service in 2006 and in 2007 India started another project called Nirbhaya which is a longer range cruise missile. Comparing the two projects I can see they use INS, possibly derived from Brahmos and GPS (IRNSS) based guidance system, again present in Brahmos. It also fills the gap of range, it is 1000 KM range missile. I guess there are your critical technologies.

Reverse engineering and JV are all means to an end. If JV can get us a technology, we will get it via JV. If someone refuses JV and yet sells us products, we can reverse engineer it. Sometimes both are used in in the same project.

You mean the still in testing mode Nirbhay? So are you admitting it is a copy of Russian tech? I thought it was indigenous? LOL. Gotcha!

You are entitled for having your own opinion. BTW, the same can be said about China and USA. China is doing a lot of things just to be seen in having parity with USA. Infact in each of the items you can almost replace China with USA and India with China.

So means we have the right to say you are copying our footsteps now? LOL

 

[Shajida Khan]

You mean the still in testing mode Nirbhay? So are you admitting it is a copy of Russian tech? I thought it was indigenous? LOL. Gotcha!

LOL

So what if it possibly uses technology derived from Russian JV? I thought you were all about reverse engineering or getting technology from outside. You have built your entire country by copying stuff from other people. I do not see any thing wrong in it though.

So means we have the right to say you are copying our footsteps now? LOL

Yes we are, just as you are following footsteps of USSR and USA. What is funny in it?

 

[Han Patriot]

So what if it uses technology derived from Russian JV? I thought you were all about reverse engineering or getting technology from outside.


Yes we are, just as you are following footsteps of USSR and USA. What is funny in it?

LOL

 

[Shajida Khan]

LOL

Do not tell me you are 'out of words'. Feel free to copy some from the folks here. No one will complain. LOL

 

[abhishekgoel80]

1) China wants manned space program, India says waste of money, useless, then now they want to go too.
2) When China want to go to moon, they launch Chandrayaan and it failed.
3) When China want to go to Mars and the Russian launcher exploded, India quickly announce they will go to Mars and went there just to save face for the failed Chandrayaan program.
4) When China organized Olympics, they wanted the Commonwealth.
5) When China reverse engineered, they laugh and said we copied without learning, and when our new systems build with those fruits of reverse engineering, they envied and now they say they should consider China's approach.

All your actions are reactions to China. My advice, plan your own path, don't just do things because you want to save face, just because we smacked you in the 60s.

2) Chandrayaan failed.
This is a news to me will you be kind enough to elaborate

 

[Shajida Khan]

2) Chandrayaan failed.
This is a news to me will you be kind enough to elaborate

I guess he means that the project did not last long enough and had to be shutdown due to overheating.

 

[Han Patriot]

2) Chandrayaan failed.
This is a news to me will you be kind enough to elaborate

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/scientists-review-chandrayaan-failure/article16626.ece

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/chandrayaan-failure-what-went-wrong-400572

Oo yah, I forgot to add on,

When China started HSR, the Indians were laughing and called it a stupid idea. Now India is inviting Chinese experts for survey and logically awarding the Japs to build the HSR.

When China was building an indigenous CPU, Indians said we will never be overtake the Americans. Now the worlds fastest supercomputer is built with Chinese chips, India is saying they will beat it by 2018.

When China started J-20, Indians said it was a piece of junk. Now you guys want a stealth fighter.

Btw, the Nirbhay just failed the 3rd time. I guess you guys need to improve on the copying skills. Don't just copy blindly, learn and improve.

I guess we Chinese do deserve the last laugh afterall right? LOL

I guess he means that the project did not last long enough and had to be shutdown due to overheating.

In other words, FAILURE!

 

[Shajida Khan]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/scientists-review-chandrayaan-failure/article16626.ece

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/chandrayaan-failure-what-went-wrong-400572

Oo yah, I forgot to add on,

When China started HSR, the Indians were laughing and called it a stupid idea. Now India is inviting Chinese experts for survey and logically awarding the Japs to build the HSR.

When China was building an indigenous CPU, Indians said we will never be overtake the Americans. Now the worlds fastest supercomputer is built with Chinese chips, India is saying they will beat it by 2018.

When China started J-20, Indians said it was a piece of junk. Now you guys want a stealth fighter.

I guess we Chinese do deserve the last laugh afterall right? LOL

Can you point at a particular news report or some evidence that Indians were launghing? I doubt any one representing India officially would have laughed at it. If it comes to individuals, well, I do not know how it works in China but people else where have their own opinions and they like to express them.

In other words, FAILURE!

China still has to send an orbitor to Mars. Does it mean Chinese space program can be described by a single world, FAILURE?

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

2) Chandrayaan failed.
This is a news to me will you be kind enough to elaborate

Don't you know even our Mars mission failed while Chinese one succeeded

 

[Han Patriot]

Can you point at a particular news report or some evidence that Indians were launghing? I doubt any one representing India officially would have laughed at it. If it comes to individuals, well, I do not know how it works in China but people else where have their own opinions and they like to express them.



China still has to send an orbitor to Mars. Does it mean Chinese space program can be described by a single world, FAILURE?

I never said the Indian space program was a failure. I said Chandrayaan-1 was a failure. And yes, I knew you would use the MOM as an ego booster. Mars was never in the priority and hence we relegated it to a joint program with the Russians. Well, thanks to a Russian screw up, you got a boastful again. Think about it, Mangal was no complex technology, it's basically Chandrayaan copy with minor improvement, PSLV is a toy by Chinese standards, so what is stopping us? Think hard.