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Indian Army used artillery & heavy mortars on LOC targeting Civilian Population

Already did.

Pakistan was even ready to withdraw ALL its troops in favor of UN troops

I wont even read beyond this.

Asking for UN troops is violation of guiding principles. It was Indian army who was supposed to maintain law and order and conduct plebiscite in company with UN representatives.

That clearly proves its you who bring in obstructions, not us. After all you were the material change which refused to clear itself.
 
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I wont even read beyond this.

Asking for UN troops is violation of guiding principles. It was Indian army who was supposed to maintain law and order and conduct plebiscite in company with UN representatives.

That clearly proves its you who bring in obstructions, not us. After all you were the material change which refused to clear itself.

Your 'refusal' to even read won't prove you right...

Your diplomats have always failed to convince the UN regarding your position exactly because of such 'refusals' and 'stubbornness' .

And JFYI, that 'offer' was made by Pakistan to the UN (not India) much later, just because the Indians were not willing to accept anything.. The same 'stubbornness' and refusal we are talking about
 
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Of course. Then blame it on Muslims and Pakistanis. I'm thoroughly disgusted that I even share the same race/ethnicity/region/language with this scum.


Gandagi sali.
Ulti ati he soch k bhi
 
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Your 'refusal' to even read won't prove you right...

Your diplomats have always failed to convince the UN regarding your position exactly because of such 'refusals' and 'stubbornness' .

And JFYI, that 'offer' was made by Pakistan to the UN (not India) much later, just because the Indians were not willing to accept anything.. The same 'stubbornness' and refusal we are talking about

Our stand of not accepting anything outside the guiding principle can not be termed as stubborn, but a right.

We were stubborn, yes, to abide by resolutions in principle and in spirit, it was you who were trying to fit yourself in somehow by asking for change, and then putting it on us for not accepting those proposals.

Having support from west could get you few supplement resolutions and an attempt to change the original one, it could not go beyond that. Accept it and move on.
 
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I wont even read beyond this.

Asking for UN troops is violation of guiding principles. It was Indian army who was supposed to maintain law and order and conduct plebiscite in company with UN representatives.

That clearly proves its you who bring in obstructions, not us. After all you were the material change which refused to clear itself.
You’ve been given the relevant excerpts from the UNSC Resolutions that clearly point out that there was no demand for Pakistan to unilaterally withdraw her troops without an agreement on demilitarization (or truce agreement) between the concerned parties. India’s intransigence and refusal to accept multiple proposals for demilitarization (by the UN) is the root cause for no progress here.

Asking for UN troops to replace Pakistani/Indian troops is not a violation of anything - it would be made a part of the demilitarization agreement (had one been concluded).

If you can’t even acknowledge basic facts then there is no point in continuing this discussion. I’m giving you one last opportunity to quote the relevant text of the UNSC Resolutions to support your claims.
 
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Our stand of not accepting anything outside the guiding principle can not be termed as stubborn, but a right.

We were stubborn, yes, to abide by resolutions in principle and in spirit, it was you who were trying to fit yourself in somehow by asking for change, and then putting it on us for not accepting those proposals.

Having support from west could get you few supplement resolutions and an attempt to change the original one, it could not go beyond that. Accept it and move on.

Had India agreed to implement the original UNCIP Resolutions in principle and spirit, there wouldn't be any subsequent resolutions or proposals.

Read slowly and carefully:

Pakistan had made it clear the UN Commission that it was ready to begin withdrawing its troops as soon as the Commission notified it. But the Commission never notified Pakistan as no agreement between India and the Commission on terms and conditions of withdrawal could be reached.

^^ That was before the subsequent resolutions were passed after you tried to backtrack from your original commitment
 
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I have pasted the relevant parts which make it clear beyond any doubt that Pakistan was under no obligation to withdraw its troops unilaterally and unconditionally. An agreement (on terms and conditions of withdrawal) between the Commission and the representatives of the booth governments had to be reached first.

India rejected 11 UN demilitarization proposals in total, Pakistan rejected none. Pakistan was even ready to withdraw its troops in favor of UN regardless of Indian reaction to such a proposal. Before that, the UN appointed official mediator blamed India for refusing to accept any reasonable demilitarization plan.

Dear Sarmad: Accept my humble appreciation, for placing the case of Pakistan, in very clear, lucid and articulate manner, on PDF, in response to Hindutvadi posters. Great job.
 
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You’ve been given the relevant excerpts from the UNSC Resolutions that clearly point out that there was no onus Pakistani to unilaterally withdraw its troops without an agreement on demilitarization (or truce agreement) between the concerned parties. India’s intransigence and refusal to accept multiple proposals for demilitarization (by the UN) is the root cause for no progress here.

If you can’t even acknowledge basic facts then there is no point in continuing this discussion. I’m giving you one last opportunity to quote the relevant text of the UNSC Resolutions to support your claims.

No excerpts given but I will give you now, and if you are looking for an opportunity to shut me down, go ahead. @M. Sarmad

1. As part of truce agreement, India and Pakistan was supposed to draft terms and conditions to bring on peace on guiding principle laid by UN resolution Aug 13 and that was

Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall he worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.

A1. As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

http://kashmirvalley.info/un-resolutions/#.XpH4XsgzY2w

2. Onus can be put on India of stalling truce agreement if Pakistan can prove that it agreed to conditions abiding by the principle laid by UN resolutions

3. No such evidence could be provided by Sarmad, infact to contrary he claim Pakistan agreed but on condition of having UN troops, which is sheer violation of guiding principles that authorized India forces for law and order. India, in its own right, can reject this proposal, without being blamed of stalling the process.

4. UN in its guiding principle called presence of Pakistan in kashmir as a material change, and it was accepted by Gov. of Pakistan, thus any further demand of not leaving the state is unwarranted

As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation

5. Pakistan refusal to follow original resolution, in letter and spirit, gives India sufficient rights to reject any further supplement proposals.

6. No evidence posted in all discussion which can establish any proposal refused by Indian side which conform to UNSC resolution on Kashmir 1948.

7. Indian refusal to reject any Pakistani demand, which doesn't meet the expectations set by UN at first, can not be termed as stalling by India, but stalling by Pakistan.

8. Even today, presence of Indian forces conform to UN resolution, but presence of Pakistan is still a material change in Kashmir, thus putting Pakistan in violation and not India.

Pending a final solution, the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will he administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission.

Had India agreed to implement the original UNCIP Resolutions in principle and spirit, there wouldn't be any subsequent resolutions or proposals.

Read slowly and carefully:

Pakistan had made it clear the UN Commission that it was ready to begin withdrawing its troops as soon as the Commission notified it. But the Commission never notified Pakistan as no agreement between India and the Commission on terms and conditions of withdrawal could be reached.

^^ That was before the subsequent resolutions were passed after you tried to backtrack from your original commitment

Post UN document claiming so here for all to read.

And are you saying Pakistan didn't put any condition before doing so? Very obedient. Whom are we fooling bro?
 
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The arbitrator (i.e., UN) was of your own choice.

Just because it didn't arbitrate/judge in accordance with your wishes, you claim that you have been discriminated against?

India made allegations against Pakistan. Pakistan didn't reply to those specific charges brought against it by India but pressed counter-charges against India. Pakistan diplomats prevailed, and 'Kashmir question' became 'India-Pakistan question'... You guys always tried to seek 'complainant's privilege' ignoring the fact that charges brought against India by Pakistan were equally serious and valid.

No, not at all. I claim discrimination in the manner in which in spite of the written evidence that Pakistan refused to comply with the resolution's conditions, no action was taken, and the plebiscite was allowed to be postponed until such time that India consented to Pakistan's refusal to comply with the resolution.

Pakistani diplomats prevailed by simply refusing to obey the UN.
 
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@AgNoStiC MuSliM

It was India which reached out to UN under article 35 complaining of Pakistan intrusion into its sovereign land and UN resolution clearly stated as below

B1. When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the Tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India

here terminating the situation refers to Pakistan aggression and intrusion of its forces in Kashmir, thus no partial pakistan troop withdrawal can terminate the situation represented by GoI.

@M. Sarmad @Joe Shearer
 
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Read your post first and try to comprehend it.



The onus is on Pakistan to wrap their bags and leave state of kashmir for India to administer and conduct plebiscite



only once Pakistan leave the stage. The plebiscite was supposed to be conducted and supported by sufficient Indian forces required and civil bodies could be roped in as and when needed.

As per UN, Pakistan had nothing to do with Plebiscite apart from leaving the place for good. You were a blocker in whole process which was supposed to be conducted by India, Indian forces and UN representatives.

You need me to quote UNSC resolutions?

The facts are established and you trying to shut posters because of them not buying your narrative is quite understanding. Is this the norm here? I am pretty respectful in my discourse I believe.

Now prove me how onus is on India as per original UNSC resolution or leave your line of argument.

Who the dickens are you? Other than Hellfire, nobody on the Indian side had come forward armed with the facts before.
 
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No excerpts given but I will give you now, and if you are looking for an opportunity to shut me down, go ahead. @M. Sarmad

1. As part of truce agreement, India and Pakistan was supposed to draft terms and conditions to bring on peace on guiding principle laid by UN resolution Aug 13 and that was

Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall he worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.

A1. As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

2. Onus can be put on India of stalling truce agreement if Pakistan can prove that it agreed to conditions abiding by the principle laid by UN resolutions

Quite the contrary, you made the claim that Pakistan had violated UN Resolutions by not withdrawing its troops from J&K. The Onus of proof lied with you. You were repeatedly asked to post relevant parts from the UN Resolutions to back up your claim that Pakistan was under the obligation to withdraw its troops unilaterally and unconditionally. But you FAILED. You, however, were provided with the relevant parts from the Resolutions which proved you WRONG


3. No such evidence could be provided by Sarmad, infact to contrary he claim Pakistan agreed but on condition of having UN troops, which is sheer violation of guiding principles that authorized India forces for law and order. India, in its own right, can reject this proposal, without being blamed of stalling the process.

Enough evidence has been provided. Just because you 'refuse' to read doesn't mean that no evidence was provided. About the Pakistani proposal (to the UN, not India) of withdrawing its troops in favour of UN troops, as you have been already told, came much later. It was not the ONLY time Pakistan agreed to withdraw its troops. It was ready to do so from day 1.


4. UN in its guiding principle called presence of Pakistan in kashmir as a material change, and it was accepted by Gov. of Pakistan, thus any further demand of not leaving the state is unwarranted

Presence of Pakistani citizens constituted material change. Tribesman had been withdrawn. Why do you think that the later resolutions make no mention of them? .. Pakistan was ready to withdraw, you keep claiming that Pakistan refused to withdraw its troops but haven't been able to bring forward even an iota of evidence to backup your claim.


5. Pakistan refusal to follow original resolution, in letter and spirit, gives India sufficient rights to reject any further supplement proposals.

Again, no evidence/proof whatsoever of Pakistan refusing to follow original resolutions.


6. No evidence posted in all discussion which can establish any proposal refused by Indian side which conform to UNSC resolution on Kashmir 1948.

Read Sir Owen Dixon's report


7. Indian refusal to reject any Pakistani demand, which doesn't meet the expectations set by UN at first, can not be termed as stalling by India, but stalling by Pakistan.

The UN Resolutions and demilitarization plans you rejected were proposed by UN, they were not Pakistani demands


8. Even today, presence of Indian forces conform to UN resolution, but presence of Pakistan is still a material change in Kashmir, thus putting Pakistan in violation and not India.

Indian admission into the State is provisional. India has taken over under the UNCIP Resolutions ONLY to assist in establishing a representative provisional administration at Srinagar, to work for creating a conducive atmosphere for holding a free and fair Plebiscite for all the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir. Pakistan as a party to the dispute administers two administrations of the State on its side of cease fire line.
 
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