Indian Army used artillery & heavy mortars on LOC targeting Civilian Population

[IMARV]

In any plebiscite, Kashmiris will vote against India which is why India doesn't to have plebiscite and India knows the result of plebiscite. But India cannot tell the world why she doesn't want to have plebiscite so it keeps giving all the other excuses for not having the plebiscite.

Dear, to your credit, even if I agree to what you are assuming, does that negate the fact that reasoning India is doing is logically and legally sound?

We can discuss your argument separately.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe Joe Joe! you have not answered anything related to this thread or about where i distorted facts. Instead you chose to dwindle in the past. Shall we continue that on another thread and focus on the events of 21st century. Yes you cannot believe anything or a single thing that Pakistan army says, i wouldnt expect otherwise but we are not the ones saying it. The lies of Indian army under Modi has been exposed even by the most critique of Pakistan like Christine Fair. Your lies started off with surgical strikes with killing of 400-500 so called terrorists. Pakistan took International media there and asked them to verify on their own. Unless you think we posses otherworldly powers, we cannot disappear 400-500 dead bodies when the whole world was watching and witnessing. Some powers actually wanted India to succeed. That was your lie busted there and than. Than came another lie when PAF bested IAF on the morning of 27th February. Indian government along with its armed forces kept lying about Pakistan F-16 shot down when the whole world knew no F-16s were lost. We on our part showed the entire Mig along with its complete missile arsenal intact which showed that no missile was ever fired from Abinandan Plane unlike the AMRAAM that IAF took out from the rear of something. Than you shot down your own chopper and kept lying about it only to admit it was a fratricide.
So if you want to point fingers at PA, please do so but while you are at it also look in the mirror, maybe you would realize its not the PA you should be worried about trusting but the IA who has been telling nothing but pack of lies under Modi. Heck even congress had to complain how indian COAS was acting like BJP spokesperson instead of being neutral and doing his job.

My dear Sir, this is about my faith in your institutions. I have never concealed my distrust of your deep state and specifically of your military leadership, even as I have maintained the greatest respect for the state of Pakistan and for the Pakistani people.

Did I seem to be sidestepping a difficult matter by digging into the past? Oh, I completely agree with you that the government under Modi started using military action as its own achievements, and sought to take credit for the defence of the country by our soldiers. That does not change the arguments I presented you, for not putting any faith on any assertion made by your people.

What I tried to convey was that the other half of the equation, distrust of the Pakistani point of view, and the Pakistani narrative, remained; since you want references to these events in particular, it is difficult to believe your assertions about the site, or that they were shown the correct location before an interval had gone by permitting hasty external repairs. It was also difficult to believe Pakistani assertions of two fighter planes being shot down, an assertion made by your ISPR and repeated by your PM; even today, you can on your own explore this forum, PDF itself, and count for yourself the number of hysterical assertions about SU30s being shot down and miraculously concealed by India.

Finally, I would like your candid and unalloyed response to the facts that I quoted to explain my scepticism. Was I correct or not?

 

[M. Sarmad]

The original one. That counts. Pakistan was part of CENTO and SEATO, and had the full backing of its masters thereafter. India was non-aligned, stayed non-aligned, and faced a permanent bias against her until very recent times, during Clinton's presidency, to be precise, when Pakistan's disastrous misadventure in 1999 turned all segments of opinion against her.

Sir, those are just lame excuses

Pakistan joined those organizations in May 1954&1955 only ... You had backtracked from UN Resolutions on Kashmir long before that.

• In 1951, India in violation of the Security Council resolution of 30 March. 1951 set up a so-called Constituent Assembly

• In 1952, India in violation of UN resolutions took steps to bring about the administrative merger of Kashmir with India. An agreement, known as the Delhi Agreement, was signed that year; it covered such matters as residuary powers, citizenship laws, fundamental rights, powers of the Supreme Court in relation to the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the application of emergency provisions embodied in the Constitution and the headship of the state.

• In April 1954, the customs barriers between occupied Kashmir and India were abolished

• In May 1954, India further tightened its grip over occupied Kashmir by the promulgation of a Presidential Order, which had the effect of extending the jurisdiction of the Indian Union. The Order also modified the definition of the term “state subjects” and broadened its basis to include all persons who had acquired immovable property there. This was calculated to reduce the Muslim majority in the state which had already been seriously affected by acts of genocide carried out in the Jammu province in 1947.

 

[BATMAN]

I think.... where Imran Khan failed, our arm chair generals are going to win Kashmir from Indians by debating unconvincingly on pdf.

 

[Joe Shearer]

new resolution supercede old resolutions.

Do look up the resolutions and under what chapter they were passed.

 

[Sal12]

Dear, to your credit, even if I agree to what you are assuming, does that negate the fact that reasoning India is doing is logically and legally sound?

We can discuss your argument separately.

There is no logic here. The logic is in your brain only but outside your brain, the logic doesn't exist.

Had India knew Kashmiris will vote for India then India would have hold the plebiscite ages ago and India would not have been looking for excuses all the time. No matter what Pak and Kashmiris will do, India will never hold a plebiscite because she knows the outcome of plebiscite.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why should we not uproot the threat and the risk which is associated with it, instead of keeping it alive for our generations to come!

Please go ahead.

What is amusing is your presumption that you have not tried to do precisely that on numerous previous occasions, and failed with dismal consequences every time.

 

[Bratva]

My dear Sir, this is about my faith in your institutions. I have never concealed my distrust of your deep state and specifically of your military leadership, even as I have maintained the greatest respect for the state of Pakistan and for the Pakistani people.

Did I seem to be sidestepping a difficult matter by digging into the past? Oh, I completely agree with you that the government under Modi started using military action as its own achievements, and sought to take credit for the defence of the country by our soldiers. That does not change the arguments I presented you, for not putting any faith on any assertion made by your people.

What I tried to convey was that the other half of the equation, distrust of the Pakistani point of view, and the Pakistani narrative, remained; since you want references to these events in particular, it is difficult to believe your assertions about the site, or that they were shown the correct location before an interval had gone by permitting hasty external repairs. It was also difficult to believe Pakistani assertions of two fighter planes being shot down, an assertion made by your ISPR and repeated by your PM; even today, you can on your own explore this forum, PDF itself, and count for yourself the number of hysterical assertions about SU30s being shot down and miraculously concealed by India.

Finally, I would like your candid and unalloyed response to the facts that I quoted to explain my scepticism. Was I correct or not?

No external repairs were made. Or else Indian satellites or commercial satellites would have caught the activity easily and would have published it online for the whole world to see. Afterall, It was those Satellite pictures which negated Indian tall claims that they destroyed and killed X number of terrorists in Balakot and forced the indian narrative to change to " That was penetrative warhead which would not cause collapse of the building" A Laughable claim which has no sound logic or facts attached to it. If you want to support indian narrative, do so based on the the evidence, not based on popular propaganda puff pieces put out by a Lying Modi Government.

 

[IMARV]

There is no logic here. The logic is in your brain only but outside your brain, the logic doesn't exist.

Had India knew Kashmiris will vote for India then India would have hold the plebiscite ages ago and India would not have been looking for excuses all the time. No matter what Pak and Kashmiris will do, India will never hold a plebiscite because she knows the outcome of plebiscite.

Kashmir of 47 and Kashmir post 89 is very different. We can discuss in detail, but allow me sometime please.

Meanwhile think why it was all peace till 89, in fact Kashmiris supported India against Pakistan in 65 and 71. Why no armed struggle against Kashmir accession to India in 47 itself.

 

[Sal12]

Kashmir of 47 and Kashmir post 89 is very different. We can discuss in detail, but allow me sometime please.

Meanwhile think why it was all peace till 89, in fact Kashmiris supported India against Pakistan in 65 and 71. Why no armed struggle against Kashmir accession to India in 47 itself.

No. I do not want to discuss. There is no reason for any discussion. Keeping one million troops of regular army and para military to suppress 8 million kashmiris with 6 months curfew with severe restriction of communication and talking about Kashmir.

Please get lost.

 

[BATMAN]

Please go ahead.

What is amusing is your presumption that you have not tried to do precisely that on numerous previous occasions, and failed with dismal consequences every time.

That was a common sense question to the rulers of Pakistan, and die hard voters /supporters of Imran Khan, who are in abundance on pdf.
Pakistan's official position is what ever Imran Khan says, which is quite clear... and that is.....we will win Kashmir, talking it out with Indian counterparts.
As far history is concerned, Pakistan never invaded India.

 

[IMARV]

No. I do not want to discuss. There is no reason for any discussion. Keeping one million troops of regular army and para military to suppress 8 million kashmiris with 6 months curfew with severe restriction of communication and talking about Kashmir.

I thought of responding to you but then I read below remark.

Please get lost.

Is there a way I can make you not see my posts, I will definitely do so, sir.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Why no armed struggle against Kashmir accession to India in 47 itself.

Read about Jammu Massacre and Poonch Rebellion

 

[IMARV]

Read about Jammu Massacre and Poonch Rebellion

Sporadic incidents, happened a lot when you unleashed afghans on Kashmiris as well but your selective picking is commendable. Never misses a chance.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The ground realities were kept in mind for subsequent UN Security resolutions. And UN sufficiently determined that Withdrawing unilaterally was not appropriate Where is the bias in that? UNO is allowing Both parties to keep the some of the forces in the valley. Infact was allowed to keep 3x the number of forces than Pakistan.



Is this your personal opinion as an indian or its An opinion supported by other UN members as well? So the resolutions that didnt support your narrative are termed as biased and Indians will refuse to honor it?

First, please correct your Freudian slip. At no point, in no resolution was Pakistan considered to be allowed to keep some of the forces in the Valley. The relaxation in subsequent resolutions, that greatly changed the original direction, was for Pakistani forces to remain in the so-called Azad Kashmir, that is, western Poonch, in Gilgit and in that part of Baltistan still under their control.

Second, India appealed to the UN, and the UN made a recommendation; throughout this argument, that aspect is repeatedly brushed under the carpet. When the terms were made known, in their original form, India agreed to go along with the resolution and its terms, and stood prepared to assist with the plebiscite. Then the changes started, one step at a time. AT ALL TIMES THESE WERE RECOMMENDATORY. Pakistani analysts and commentators love to throw around phrases like binding and determining. These resolutions were nothing of the sort, and once India realised that the terms were being altered step by step, she refused to go along with an obviously subsequently introduced bias.

These are not my personal narrative. I have represented the Indian point of view, with the assistance only of @Hellfire on occasion, I certainly have no pretensions to being the official Indian spokesperson outside this forum.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM, I am disappointed at your putting pressure on this unexpected Indian poster, @IMARV, even though he is making his points with the greatest courtesy and decorum. There are known Indian baiters among the moderation team; it comes as an unpleasant surprise that your sympathies are with them.