Indian Army ORBAT Against Pakistan-Visualised

[Signalian]

What is the size of 10th RAPID and how many armor/mech infantry units are under its command ?

Size of 8th Mountain Division is conflicting. There seem to 4+ Brigades under it.
a. 59 Mountain Brigade
b. 81 Mountain Brigade
c. 56 Mountain Brigade
d. 192 Mountain Brigade
e. 8 Mountain Artillery Brigade

These 2 brigades fall under which IA division?
a. 303 Mountain Brigade
b. 79 Mountain Brigade

Indian army's deployment especially along the Paksitani front.

Where will 50 Para (I) Brigade be deployed in case of war ?

 

[Signalian]

254 (I) Armd bde- Leh

This one is deployed against Pakistan or China ?

XIV Corps - Leh
3 Inf Div - Leh

BMPs carrying insignia of 3 ID were spotted. Why does 3 ID need Mech Inf Batt apart from 254 (I) Armored Brigade ?

22 Inf Div- Meerut

193 Medium Regiment of 22 Inf Div has M-777 howitzers which means IA didnt just buy these for mountain Ops considering their weight.

 

[Signalian]

25 Inf Div- Rajauri

Deploys vehicles similar to MRAPs showing that freedom fighters still operate in the region.

6 (I) Armoured Brigade - Suratgarh

a. 10 Armoured Regiment
b. 41 Armoured Regiment
c. 87 Armoured Regiment

 

[Signalian]

Where the hell is GRYPHON !

IA Armor Div - 6 x T-90 Regiments + 4 x BMP Battalions

IA (I) Armored Brigade - 3 x tank regiments + 1 BMP Battalion + 1 Recce squadron + 1 Arty Regiment

IA Armored Regiment - 55 x Tanks (45 in three squadrons + HQ and 10 reserve)

IA BMP Battalion - 60 x BMPs

@Signalian this thread will interest you

I added few nuts and crackers let DesertFox1 enjoy now

 

[PanzerKiel]

Exactly, I've noticed as well that Indian army deployment is rather dense and lateral as compared to paksitan. They will have to have good lateral communication lines. On the other hand PA's divisions are linear and quite thin, like a chain. And if a single link (God forbid) breaks, the whole chain will break. Fortunately Pak has good communication lines connecting N-S as well as dense road network in areas such as Gujranwala etc.

Lateral deployments always favor the attacker, or someone trying to follow offensive-offensive or offensive-defensive doctrine. Linear deployments always favor the defender, with having a very limited capability to attack. Doctrines of both countries dictate these deployments.

For Pak, its not as easy as you are implying (one link break, the whole chain breaks). We are talking about millions of men, spread over a wide geographical area, with the terrain being used to its fullest. Its not that easy to break a link of the chain. Large formations having thousands of troops take time to deploy, not a single day.

 

[PanzerKiel]

102 (I) Infantry Brigade called Partapur is deployed in Siachen or vice versa.

102 looks after Siachen,

What is the size of 10th RAPID and how many armor/mech infantry units are under its command ?

Size of 8th Mountain Division is conflicting. There seem to 4+ Brigades under it.
a. 59 Mountain Brigade
b. 81 Mountain Brigade
c. 56 Mountain Brigade
d. 192 Mountain Brigade
e. 8 Mountain Artillery Brigade

These 2 brigades fall under which IA division?
a. 303 Mountain Brigade
b. 79 Mountain Brigade


Where will 50 Para (I) Brigade be deployed in case of war ?

8 MD has 56, 192, 121 and 8 Artillery brigade. 59 MB is in Manipur (E India).

79 MB is directly under 15 Corps.

50 Para will either be independently deployed or grouped with 108 MB, 91 Amphibious brigade or even with 54 RAMFOR.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Lateral deployments always favor the attacker, or someone trying to follow offensive-offensive or offensive-defensive doctrine. Linear deployments always favor the defender, with having a very limited capability to attack. Doctrines of both countries dictate these deployments.

For Pak, its not as easy as you are implying (one link break, the whole chain breaks). We are talking about millions of men, spread over a wide geographical area, with the terrain being used to its fullest. Its not that easy to break a link of the chain. Large formations having thousands of troops take time to deploy, not a single day.

I know this is probably a very basic thing that most of the people on this thread so far are very aware of, but to the members who aren’t as well versed with the two countries doctrines, this basically points to the fact that due to Pakistans geography (long and thin), our forces and reserves have very small distances to travel in order to get to their forward positions at the border or elsewhere. This means in the early stages of a war, Pakistan can actually hope to match or even outnumber Indian forces at certain locations, this is obviously something they’ll use to their advantage and have included in their doctrine (while india obviously plans to counter it).

While india may have more manpower in general, due to Indias geography and size, it’ll take longer for them to mobilize troops and reserves and move them to their attacking or defending positions.

Obviously this geography has disadvantages for Pakistan too, little strategic depth and the fact that all of its installations remain in Indian cruise missile reach despite being on the western borders, just like Indias geography has advantages (the Vice versa of this).


I’m really not well versed in regiments and deployments of both sides, so all of this is new info to me as well, but I have taken the time to understand the general doctrine on both sides so I can understand it.
However this thread might be a little prohibitive if it stays among the usual few who understand the background behind all of this, so I’d request the more knowledgeable members to also explain whatever they say in more basic terms to open this stuff up to the casual reader as well.

Edit: this point applies in general to the forum as well, it can be pretty helpful to the casual reader if a more knowledgeable member explains basic terms while talking about technical, technological and tactical stuff, it takes the thread beyond just the discussion of a few people to involve everyone, also allows people to ask questions.

PS: thanks @Signalian for pointing this out to me when I started too and also for being the one to often do this for me and others.

 

[Shehryar Ashraf]

Pakistans geography (long and thin), our forces and reserves have very small distances to travel in order to get to their forward positions at the border or elsewhere. This means in the early stages of a war, Pakistan can actually hope to match or even outnumber Indian forces at certain locations, this is obviously something they’ll use to their advantage and have included in their doctrine (while india obviously plans to counter it).

While india may have more manpower in general, due to Indias geography and size, it’ll take longer for them to mobilize troops and reserves and move them to their attacking or defending positions.

which is why logic dictates Pakistan use a offensive doctrine to exploit advantages gained in the early stages of war.

Obviously this geography has disadvantages for Pakistan too, little strategic depth and the fact that all of its installations remain in Indian cruise missile reach despite being on the western borders, just like Indias geography has advantages (the Vice versa of this).

which is why a defensive doctrine is defeatism. allowing them the luxury of mobilizing and giving them first mover advantage is stupid. the lack of geographical barriers means Pakistan cannot hold on the defensive for more than a few days in a conventional battle.

 

[araz]

In this thread I have tried to not only summarize but also visualize Indian army's deployment especially along the Paksitani front.
(Hopefully this thread will help us to not only have an accurate force comparison and but also to run exercises with relative realism and professionally)



Western Command:

II Corps - Ambala
1 Armd Div- Patiala
9 Inf Div- Meerut
22 Inf Div- Meerut
40 Arty Div - Ambala
16 (I) Armd bde- Mamun


IX Corps - Yol
26 Inf Div - Jammu
29 Inf Div -Pathankot
2 (I) Armd bde- Mamun
3 (I) Armd bde- Ratnuchak


XI Corps - Jalandhar
7 Inf Div- Firozpur
15 Inf Div- Amritsar
23 (I) Armd bde - Amritsar
55 (I) Mech bde- Beas


View attachment 827931
(Deployment of Indian Army's Western command)

Southwestern Command:

I Strike Corps - Mathura
33 Armoured Division -Hisar
4 RAPID- Allahabad
42 Arty Div- Alwar
14 (I) Armd bde- Bathinda

X Corps - Bhatinda
16 Infantry Division - Sriganganagar
18 RAPID -Kota
24 RAPID - Bikaner
6 (I) Armoured Brigade - Suratgarh


Southern Command:

XXI Corps - Bhopal
31 Armoured Division- Jhansi
36 RAPID - Sagar
54 Infantry Division Secunderabad
41 Artillery Division- Pune

XII Corps - Jodhpur
11 Infantry Division - Ahmedabad
75 (I) Infantry Brigade- Bhuj
12 RAPID - Jodhpur
4 (I) Armoured Brigade - Bathinda


View attachment 827932
(Deployment of Indian Army's South-Western and Southern commands)

Northern Command:

XIV Corps - Leh
3 Inf Div - Leh
8 MD- Dras
121 (I) Inf bde- Kargil
102 (I) Inf bde - Partapur
118 (I) Inf bde- Nyoma
254 (I) Armd bde- Leh

XV Corps - Srinagar:
19 Inf Div- Baramulla
28 Inf Div-Gurez

XVI Corps - Nagrota
10 RAPID- Akhnoor
25 Inf Div- Rajauri
39 Inf Div- Yol

View attachment 827938
(Indian Army Northern command deployment. The formations marked in orange are of Western command)

Took me a whole day but was worth it.
Any amendment would be welcome.

@Joe Shearer @PanzerKiel @Signalian @Inception-06 @Ghost 125 @HRK @SQ8 @iLION12345_1 @rvats @farooqbhai007 @waz
@HRK @Irfan Baloch @The Eagle
@Jungibaaz

I would also request the mods to make this a sticky thread so it can be utilised by all in the future. (@The Eagle )

Great post. I think there have been some posts of very high calibre from some posters. These deserve a section in Professional corner. They should be open for everyone to read and rate but should be selective only to member s to post by invitation. If the Mods agree a section can be established if not done so. This might invite international posters to contribute as well.
A

 

[Joe Shearer]

I know this is probably a very basic thing that most of the people on this thread so far are very aware of, but to the members who aren’t as well versed with the two countries doctrines, this basically points to the fact that due to Pakistans geography (long and thin), our forces and reserves have very small distances to travel in order to get to their forward positions at the border or elsewhere. This means in the early stages of a war, Pakistan can actually hope to match or even outnumber Indian forces at certain locations, this is obviously something they’ll use to their advantage and have included in their doctrine (while india obviously plans to counter it).

While india may have more manpower in general, due to Indias geography and size, it’ll take longer for them to mobilize troops and reserves and move them to their attacking or defending positions.

Obviously this geography has disadvantages for Pakistan too, little strategic depth and the fact that all of its installations remain in Indian cruise missile reach despite being on the western borders, just like Indias geography has advantages (the Vice versa of this).

This is the crux of the problem for strategic planning by India.

1. The Pakistan Army has its bases very close to the frontiers; to get into action hardly takes 36 to 72 hours.
2. The Indian Army does not have a similar string of bases along its western frontier. A simple scrutiny will underline the problem - the IA has units at Ambala, at Meerut, at Bareilly, at Sagar, at Jhansi, at Hyderabad (this is not a complete list).
3. Long before the IA can mobilise, taking railway tracks and road networks into consideration, the PA will be in full strength deployment and ready to roll.
4. The IA's salvation is to delink the multiple functions it has, and to put them in the hands of separate leadership structures and processes:
   • Defensive bases stretching along the border;
   • Specialist formations responsible for neutralising named units on the opposite side;
   • The equivalent of independent brigade groups, independently tasked, with integral resources, free to operate away from the activities of the first two 'types'.
5. Close integration of aerial resources, manned and unmanned;
6. Close integration and major expansion of artillery resources,

None of these will apply to the northern frontiers.

 

[PanzerKiel]

This one is deployed against Pakistan or China ?


BMPs carrying insignia of 3 ID were spotted. Why does 3 ID need Mech Inf Batt apart from 254 (I) Armored Brigade ?


193 Medium Regiment of 22 Inf Div has M-777 howitzers which means IA didnt just buy these for mountain Ops considering their weight.

254 is deployed against China. 3 ID needs BMPs for the same reason as 254. Area of 3 ID contains some high altitude mountain plateaus and wide valleys, which have prospects for large scale armor and mechanized movement.

 

[Khan vilatey]

In this thread I have tried to not only summarize but also visualize Indian army's deployment especially along the Paksitani front.
(Hopefully this thread will help us to not only have an accurate force comparison and but also to run exercises with relative realism and professionally)



Western Command:

II Corps - Ambala
1 Armd Div- Patiala
9 Inf Div- Meerut
22 Inf Div- Meerut
40 Arty Div - Ambala
16 (I) Armd bde- Mamun


IX Corps - Yol
26 Inf Div - Jammu
29 Inf Div -Pathankot
2 (I) Armd bde- Mamun
3 (I) Armd bde- Ratnuchak


XI Corps - Jalandhar
7 Inf Div- Firozpur
15 Inf Div- Amritsar
23 (I) Armd bde - Amritsar
55 (I) Mech bde- Beas


View attachment 827931
(Deployment of Indian Army's Western command)

Southwestern Command:

I Strike Corps - Mathura
33 Armoured Division -Hisar
4 RAPID- Allahabad
42 Arty Div- Alwar
14 (I) Armd bde- Bathinda

X Corps - Bhatinda
16 Infantry Division - Sriganganagar
18 RAPID -Kota
24 RAPID - Bikaner
6 (I) Armoured Brigade - Suratgarh


Southern Command:

XXI Corps - Bhopal
31 Armoured Division- Jhansi
36 RAPID - Sagar
54 Infantry Division Secunderabad
41 Artillery Division- Pune

XII Corps - Jodhpur
11 Infantry Division - Ahmedabad
75 (I) Infantry Brigade- Bhuj
12 RAPID - Jodhpur
4 (I) Armoured Brigade - Bathinda


View attachment 827932
(Deployment of Indian Army's South-Western and Southern commands)

Northern Command:

XIV Corps - Leh
3 Inf Div - Leh
8 MD- Dras
121 (I) Inf bde- Kargil
102 (I) Inf bde - Partapur
118 (I) Inf bde- Nyoma
254 (I) Armd bde- Leh

XV Corps - Srinagar:
19 Inf Div- Baramulla
28 Inf Div-Gurez

XVI Corps - Nagrota
10 RAPID- Akhnoor
25 Inf Div- Rajauri
39 Inf Div- Yol

View attachment 827938
(Indian Army Northern command deployment. The formations marked in orange are of Western command)

Took me a whole day but was worth it.
Any amendment would be welcome.

@Joe Shearer @PanzerKiel @Signalian @Inception-06 @Ghost 125 @HRK @SQ8 @iLION12345_1 @rvats @farooqbhai007 @waz
@HRK @Irfan Baloch @The Eagle
@Jungibaaz

I would also request the mods to make this a sticky thread so it can be utilised by all in the future. (@The Eagle )

Amazing detail

k

 

[khail007]

This is the crux of the problem for strategic planning by India.

1. The Pakistan Army has its bases very close to the frontiers; to get into action hardly takes 36 to 72 hours.
2. The Indian Army does not have a similar string of bases along its western frontier. A simple scrutiny will underline the problem - the IA has units at Ambala, at Meerut, at Bareilly, at Sagar, at Jhansi, at Hyderabad (this is not a complete list).
3. Long before the IA can mobilise, taking railway tracks and road networks into consideration, the PA will be in full strength deployment and ready to roll.
4. The IA's salvation is to delink the multiple functions it has, and to put them in the hands of separate leadership structures and processes:
   • Defensive bases stretching along the border;
   • Specialist formations responsible for neutralising named units on the opposite side;
   • The equivalent of independent brigade groups, independently tasked, with integral resources, free to operate away from the activities of the first two 'types'.
5. Close integration of aerial resources, manned and unmanned;
6. Close integration and major expansion of artillery resources,

None of these will apply to the northern frontiers.

Joe, the points you listed are very opposing to the 'cold start' doctrine of India. Could you enlighten us about that doctrine, was it real or just a verbal threat?

Your above post is like that it was not India but Pakistan who 'in real' implemented and benefitting from the 'sold start'.

@PanzerKiel, Dear this Pakistani strategy for earlier international border access was there for long or Pakistan did do it after realizing the Indian 'cold start' threat?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Joe, the points you listed are very opposing to the 'cold start' doctrine of India. Could you enlighten us about that doctrine, was it real or just a verbal threat?

Your above post is like that it was not India but Pakistan who 'in real' implemented and benefitting from the 'sold start'.

@PanzerKiel, Dear this Pakistani strategy for earlier international border access was there for long or Pakistan did do it after realizing the Indian 'cold start' threat?

The indian CS doctrine (followed by Pro Active Strategy now) was very much real.

@PanzerKiel, Dear this Pakistani strategy for earlier international border access was there for long or Pakistan did do it after realizing the Indian 'cold start' threat?

Its been there since maybe half a century now. The road network allows us to do all this.

 

[Raja Porus]

102 (I) Infantry Brigade called Partapur is deployed in Siachen or vice versa

Siachen Brigade.

What is the size of 10th RAPID and how many armor/mech infantry units are under its command

I think its size os of a normal RAPID. However a new (I)Armd bde was raised in Akhnur as well.

Where will 50 Para (I) Brigade be deployed in case of war ?

It is there army reserve. So it depends on the situation.

This one is deployed against Pakistan or China

254(I) is equipped with T72s and was raised around 2014 to counter Chinese mech forces.
India is a bringing back and assigning WW2 armd bde numbers to its new armd bdes.

BMPs carrying insignia of 3 ID were spotted. Why does 3 ID need Mech Inf Batt apart from 254 (I) Armored Brigade ?

Most probably part of the mech forces that were moved to Laddakh during the recent clashes for inf support to the armd assets.

193 Medium Regiment of 22 Inf Div has M-777 howitzers which means IA didnt just buy these for mountain Ops considering their weight.

Sort of arty reserve that can be air lifted to any threatened area?

IA Armored Regiment - 55 x Tanks (45 in three squadrons + HQ and 10 reserve

10 tanks in reserve! I doubt it though. It'd take quite some effort to make an armd regt not battle worthy.

Lateral deployments always favor the attacker, or someone trying to follow offensive-offensive or offensive-defensive doctrine. Linear deployments always favor the defender, with having a very limited capability to attack. Doctrines of both countries dictate these deployments.

For Pak, its not as easy as you are implying (one link break, the whole chain breaks). We are talking about millions of men, spread over a wide geographical area, with the terrain being used to its fullest. Its not that easy to break a link of the chain. Large formations having thousands of troops take time to deploy, not a single day.

I was talking metaphorically. Ofc a division can't be just brushed aside especially with PAF playing a role. I was trying to point at how PA is deployed like a chain which appears thin on the map, unlike IA which appears to be rather dense especially when we take Eastern cmd into account.

IA (I) Armored Brigade - 3 x tank regiments + 1 BMP Battalion + 1 Recce squadron + 1 Arty Regiment

What about a Brigade group. It'll have more infantry right?