Indian Army ill-prepared for war

[Blue Marlin]

Why would we attack Pakistan, Haven't done it in the past, won't happen in the future.

depends on how one would define attack.

 

[MilSpec]

In other news Barrack Obama was just sworn in as the President a day before the article was written.

 

[guest11]

In other news Barrack Obama was just sworn in as the President a day before the article was written.

Wow first Black president of US. Times are changing.

@Windjammer , Why are you avoiding the tag? Why are you so scared of me? Where in OP China and two front war has been mentioned?

Since you like to write up nonsense about Kargil so much, let me bump the thread from where you ran like a little girl.

 

[Hellfire]

You need bit more study , instead of trolling on credible posts, plz focus on digging stuff out side Indian history text books.
Also, do learn the difference between LOC & international border, Covert operation in disputed territory vs Mechanized assault on neighbour territory.......

Again, Op Gibraltar which saw paratroopers being deployed extensively was the act initiated first.

Secondly, since when is there an obligation to limit conflict only to LC?

Thirdly, as per Karachi Agreement of 1948, you have recognized international boundary in Jammu in Sambha etc, so you were in violation of IB as there were your troops there.


I told you last time also, be clear on your facts. It's tiresome teaching things .....


I don't read Indian authors alone. Any Indian who says Chinese were responsible for initiating war with us equally gets it from me. Because it is incorrect.

trolling is when someone deflects the thread. It was what the concerned poster did by posting incorrect information.

And learn to use the neurons. Theory is nice but you must know the application. Last time also I had advised you when you were using salted bombs and being militarily incorrect and factually wrong of its application.

 

[FNFAL]

ahahaha. thread kholke khud ki beijjati kara li ...epic

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Even a very well prepared and rehearsed plan in 1965 didn't work out. When China was preparing to attack India, and this was brought to the notice of Mr. Nehru, he replied, "Forget about China, concentrate on Pak." That means they were even ready to let a part of their country go to China but recapture Pak at any cost to prove their apprehensions about Pak true in verbatim. And, it must have all started in 1948.

Even to a novice like me it's quite obvious that 1965 war plan was done in tandem with the tacit approval and active military hardware support from the major powers of that time for they wanted Pak to be dead and gone forever. Almost simultaneous attacks on Lahore and Sialkot sectors, where Pak defenses were most unprepared, with overwhelming forces testify that very high world-class levels of intelligence and battle plans were available to the Indian Army along with precious logistics. It must have been a ploy to keep the crux of the Pak Army busy in Kashmir sector when death blows to the heartlands were about to be launched.

Thanks to few valiant soldiers all the heinous plans were put to the garbage. As per our KITAP, when Allah-u Azimushshan closes a door it can't be opened, when HE opens a door it can't be closed.

..Ve Ma Tevfiki Illa Billah...
..Ve La Kuvvete Illa Billah..

You are a funny person. Nehru was not the prime Minister in 1965. It was Lal Bahadur Shastri. It started as Operation Gibraltar to occupy Kashmir which went awry as Z.A. Bhutto lied through his teeth that they will have local support in Kashmir. Once Indians opened a new front in Punjab the whole plan of Operational Gibraltar was abandoned because Pakistanis would have lost Punjab if they had not brought back their forces.

Well the Indians thought that The Pakistanis were trying to enclose them like the Red Army did in WW2 So they were moving very slowly and cautiously.

Pakistanis wanted to get the pressure off from their backs so they asked China for help but the relation ship with the Soviets had gone bad for China by then and the Russians placed troops on their northern border and gave a warning to the Chinese. The U.S. Armed Pakistan to it's teeth because Pakistani's promised the U.S, Chinese support and ties with them. Pakistan acted as intermediate.

The only hero from the Pakistani side was the PAF as it shot down a few Indian Ground attack aircraft but the dark side was they never gave any form of air support for their ground troops.

Well and remember as you follow your KITAP we follow our Arthashastra.....which states that fight your enemy where he least expects it. Pakistanis tried it in Kashmir and we did the same in Punjab sector.

as the saying goes in tamil '....unkakku vandha mattum ratham yenakku vandha thakkali chatniyah'

 

[Tipu7]

Again, Op Gibraltar which saw paratroopers being deployed extensively was the act initiated first.

Secondly, since when is there an obligation to limit conflict only to LC?

Remember this point.

Thirdly, as per Karachi Agreement of 1948, you have recognized international boundary in Jammu in Sambha etc, so you were in violation of IB as there were your troops there.

Wrong.
Kashmir was still a hot issue. That is why Uncle Sam was so worried about possible Pakistan invasion on Kashmir during 1962 war and promised to resolve this issue on table. But India refused the talks after death of Nehru, so Pakistan had no choice but to use other options. And we did.

I told you last time also, be clear on your facts. It's tiresome teaching things .....

Its exact opposite actually.
Every where we collide, in the end it is you who have to learn some thing new.
be it NASR, be it use of tactical nuclear weapon, be it NBC protection, be it effect of Neutron bombardment on Boron coating etc etc, so many things to mention

I don't read Indian authors alone. Any Indian who says Chinese were responsible for initiating war with us equally gets it from me. Because it is incorrect.

trolling is when someone deflects the thread. It was what the concerned poster did by posting incorrect information.

And learn to use the neurons. Theory is nice but you must know the application. Last time also I had advised you when you were using salted bombs and being militarily incorrect and factually wrong of its application.

Too bad, you didn't learn a thing...........
Is ''Dhattai'' is Indian blood? part of DNA code?

 

[Hellfire]

Remember this point.

Man, seriously? Just gave up on your post and resorting to trolling huh?

The dude to who I was replying was in fact making ludicrous claims of China massing to attack Indian in 1965 (something which Pakistan was counting on but didn't happen either in '65 or '71) and cries conspiracy to destroy Pakistan!! (and that is why Pakistan was the best equipped Air Force in Asia at the time and the lead in anti-Soviet movement as pivot of CENTO?)))

And when I was correcting him on the fact of the '65 war starting at the actions of Pakistan's Op Gibraltar:

Another troll

You need bit more study , instead of trolling on credible posts, plz focus on digging stuff out side Indian history text books.
Also, do learn the difference between LOC & international border, Covert operation in disputed territory vs Mechanized assault on neighbour territory.......

What a lame A$s rebuttal!

Wrong.
Kashmir was still a hot issue. That is why Uncle Sam was so worried about possible Pakistan invasion on Kashmir during 1962 war and promised to resolve this issue on table. But India refused the talks after death of Nehru, so Pakistan had no choice but to use other options. And we did.

Are you such a dullard? I said that by 1948 Karachi Agreement (a blunder by you) you recognized the International boundary as existing in Jammu sector thereby this effectively being response to your 'operations across LOC' and 'international boundary' analogies. Man, do you even understand English?

And are you even aware of the tenets of Karachi Agreement? First read up and then speak.

Its exact opposite actually.
Every where we collide, in the end it is you who have to learn some thing new.
be it NASR, be it use of tactical nuclear weapon, be it NBC protection, be it effect of Neutron bombardment on Boron coating etc etc, so many things to mention

DEWs can blast your tanks and all your NASRs .. there I can answer like a half assed amateur that you are!!!

I specifically asked you the u/m questions:

1. If you are using Nasr, what is the frontage of a squadron of tanks in a typical linear attack and how many weapons do you think will be used to stop an armoured regiment, I am not even talking of an armoured brigade yet? I gave you a reference of a 1 KT warhead of ERW being effective at 690 m for a steel armored variant of T-72!!

2. As a commander, what is the aim of deployment of a nuclear device at tactical level?? I contended that the aim of the commander will be to exploit the resultant gap in enemy offensive/defensive formations to either occupy/hold position or to launch an own counter offensive.

I asked both these questions at separate times and never got any response from you ....

So .. please do explain. I am sure I will learn (and am indeed learning) many new things from you .. I have no doubt about it. I have oft said I am here to learn new things as I do not believe a person ever stops learning.

Too bad, you didn't learn a thing...........
Is ''Dhattai'' is Indian blood? part of DNA code?

Didn't get this actually .... so explain .. and in case if it is meant as an insult .. let it lie .. does not bother me

 

[Arsalan]

Any attack on Pakistan will prove to be the end of India as we know it.

What else you think stops them?
I understand that we wont be coming out unharmed from such a conflict but India wont be spared either. Even if we talk about a purely non-nuclear scenario.

 

[Hellfire]

What else you think stops them?
I understand that we wont be coming out unharmed from such a conflict but India wont be spared either. Even if we talk about a purely non-nuclear scenario.

There wont be a conflict .......!

India will be stupid if it does go in for that ... economic development and improving the social indices is our priority. Kashmir is going no where .. level of violence in india is at manageable levels.

 

[Tipu7]

Man, seriously? Just gave up on your post and resorting to trolling huh?

The dude to who I was replying was in fact making ludicrous claims of China massing to attack Indian in 1965 (something which Pakistan was counting on but didn't happen either in '65 or '71) and cries conspiracy to destroy Pakistan!! (and that is why Pakistan was the best equipped Air Force in Asia at the time and the lead in anti-Soviet movement as pivot of CENTO?)))

And when I was correcting him on the fact of the '65 war starting at the actions of Pakistan's Op Gibraltar:

Another troll



What a lame A$s rebuttal!




Are you such a dullard? I said that by 1948 Karachi Agreement (a blunder by you) you recognized the International boundary as existing in Jammu sector thereby this effectively being response to your 'operations across LOC' and 'international boundary' analogies. Man, do you even understand English?

And are you even aware of the tenets of Karachi Agreement? First read up and then speak.






DEWs can blast your tanks and all your NASRs .. there I can answer like a half assed amateur that you are!!!

I specifically asked you the u/m questions:

1. If you are using Nasr, what is the frontage of a squadron of tanks in a typical linear attack and how many weapons do you think will be used to stop an armoured regiment, I am not even talking of an armoured brigade yet? I gave you a reference of a 1 KT warhead of ERW being effective at 690 m for a steel armored variant of T-72!!

2. As a commander, what is the aim of deployment of a nuclear device at tactical level?? I contended that the aim of the commander will be to exploit the resultant gap in enemy offensive/defensive formations to either occupy/hold position or to launch an own counter offensive.

I asked both these questions at separate times and never got any response from you ....

So .. please do explain. I am sure I will learn (and am indeed learning) many new things from you .. I have no doubt about it. I have oft said I am here to learn new things as I do not believe a person ever stops learning.




Didn't get this actually .... so explain .. and in case if it is meant as an insult .. let it lie .. does not bother me

Hi,
Play with your toys.......
You have habit of running away when you lose your arguments.
This is proved more than three times.
And I am not naive enough to test it fourth time......
So let's mind our own business .......

 

[Hellfire]

Hi,
Play with your toys.......
You have habit of running away when you lose your arguments.
This is proved more than three times.
And I am not naive enough to test it fourth time......
So let's mind our own business .......

Asked you two questions for the third time, yet you refrained from answering. And this is your rejoinder. Either you know or you don't. Don't indulge in circumlocutory. First time you tried to impress me with nuclear chemistry and physics, I had only asked you the reference bomb for an ERW. You, the untrained 'professional' that you want to portray, retorted there is no reference bomb. Every tom, whose dick is hairy knows 1 KT is the reference value for the ERWs. For nuclear, it is 20 KT or the 'nominal bomb'.

If you had an effing iota of idea about the military employment apart from google, you would have understood that you have been baited by me over the period of time but overtime I posed the question, you were sensible enough to break off, knowingly or unknowingly.

However, this time, you have tested my patience by trolling me .... !!!


Yes sir, I agree we do that, the last bold point ...... indeed.

However before I break off:

The answer to Question 1 is that in any linear attack by armour, the average distance between two tanks is 700-900 meters. This is higher than some countries espousing 300-400 meters or less, as PA has gone in for strong anti-tanks elements in their strategy to counter offensive Indian operations by upgradation of their existing LAT & HAT units which they shall intend to disperse in order to enable them to use them independently in highly mobile groups against advancing armoured brigade which typically will either be 2:1 or 1:2 in terms of armour to mech infantry regiment composition .....

So if by convention this is the expected distance and I gave you the reference of 1 KT , you can do the math of a squadron of a tank i.e. 15 in linear formation and the inter-se gap between each tank and extrapolate the area being covered and then calculate your effective fire concentration from your NASR and its ERWs and come to a conclusion of how many you need to fire in order to halt a regiment in attack leaving aside the whole brigade!!! And as an extension, the level of contamination of the area achieved and the NIGA activity to be faced as your troops move in, something you claimed won't be occurring!!!

Then you can increase the inter-se distance between the armoured vehicles further in order to minimise the effects of neutrons for your calculations as by default it increases with appreciated threat by the attacking force......

Additionally, all this while we are not considering the MOPP of any attacking force ...... which shall have been suitably enhanced depending on threat assessment and opposing forces MOPP status as elicited from Surveillance and Reconnaissance detachments.

Indian forces, by default beginning offensive ops into enemy territory will be in appropriate MOPP ... and the NAPS would have started as a bare minimum keeping in line the Pakistani Strike policies. That is why, even your use of a ballistic missile or even the MRLS of Corps Artillery is fraught with risk of escalation into nuclear domain due to the declared policy of the state of first strike.

You see, this kind of information is not available on net ... because either you have been trained or not .. simple as that ...

As for Question 2 posed to you:

No battlefield commander will like to use a nuclear weapon at a tactical level without being able to exploit the results to his/her satisfaction. Furthermore, the biggest issue with deployment of nuclear weapon at a tactical level again remains - is it consistent with the overall strategic objective of the, say at the least, Corps Commander? Because, for a Brigade commander his brigade may be on verge of a rout and wipeout, but for the corps commander, this loss may translate into diversion of enemy forces towards the beleaguered brigade thereby enabling concentration of forces at appreciated enemy weak points or maybe a GTI !!!

Additionally, the aim of any manoeuvre warfare will be to establish/exploit a breach and then penetrate deep into the rear of enemy defences in order to establish what is in plain language called a 'block' in order to deny reinforcements from moving and if any node or internode is nearby, to secure it in order to establish a base for further offensive operations as soon as the axis of maintenance is established and the replenishment columns are mobile.

You see, there has to be a rationale when you claim you will use your NASRs. I merely had asked you to realise what you are saying and not indulge in mere theoretical scenarios, and to explain things.

Every nation which has nuclear weapons by default has enhanced radiation weapons. What you have done with Nasr, you can easily emulate in 155 mm and above easily.

We weaponised Akash for the same.

Anyways ... thanks for your inputs and all the best; please do not troll further.

 

[noksss]

And they know it, hence they Chickened out both in 2002 and 2008.

 

[Joe Shearer]

We forgot Amrika is your daddy now Guess you couldn't find an indian forum good enough to do your chest thumping. Beghairati ki bhi intiha hey!

Feeling orphaned are we?

Remind me, little genius and international relations expert, what was CENTO? Who were the members? What was SEATO? Who were the members? What was the relationship of the US Army and the Pakistan Army in the 50s and the 60s? How did Sabres, Starfighters and Patton tanks come into the sub-continent?

I love the way wet-behind-the-years kids come out with smart alec comments, without even a clue about what they are talking about.

You sure about that...lol.
http://m.timesofindia.com/world/us/India-top-recipient-of-US-economic-aid/articleshow/48093123.cms

Yes, we're sure about that. And you are obviously not sure or not even aware of America's influence and contribution to Pakistan in the growing years of Pakistan's economy.

Oh bhai tu ajeeb bewakoof admi hain.

1) First you open up thread on the basis of a 7 year old article.
2) Then you bring up China in a thread when it is not mentioned in OP.
3) Now you foolishly bring pigeons in an unrelated thread.

Get yourself treated, your mental issues are getting out of hand.

LOL 7 saal purana article par time pass kar raha hai.

You are finding it out now. We have known it for quite some time.

 

[Av8er]

Feeling orphaned are we?

Remind me, little genius and international relations expert, what was CENTO? Who were the members? What was SEATO? Who were the members? What was the relationship of the US Army and the Pakistan Army in the 50s and the 60s? How did Sabres, Starfighters and Patton tanks come into the sub-continent?

I love the way wet-behind-the-years kids come out with smart alec comments, without even a clue about what they are talking about.



Yes, we're sure about that. And you are obviously not sure or not even aware of America's influence and contribution to Pakistan in the growing years of Pakistan's economy.



You are finding it out now. We have known it for quite some time.

I love the way old farts like you come out and try to prove their manhood on these forums by giving everyone a history lesson and calling them kids. I am hardly a kid and know my history. So please cut out the BS and go do your chest thumping on some crappy Indian forum.