Indian Army bought choppers with technical flaws

[Mig-29]

The 40 indigenously-built advanced light helicopters (ALHs) the Indian Army has bought for Rs 1,747 crore (Rs 356 million) have a technical flaw that prevents them from flying to heights of 6,500 meters, thus affecting operational preparedness in high altitude areas like the Siachen glacier, India's audit watchdog says."The ALH was not able to fly above 5,000 meters, though the army's requirement stipulated an ability to fly upto 6,500 meters. This deficiency was because of the limitation of the engine used in ALHs," the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) said in his report released on Friday. The army needs choppers of the ALH category for quick movement of troops and logistics in operational areas, including in the extreme weather conditions of the Siachen Glacier. The helicopters are also meant to enhance surveillance capabilities. The Indian Army bought the ALHs despite other shortcomings like unacceptably high vibration levels. According to the report, the army ordered the ALHs after its manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) said it would develop a more powerful engine to replace the existing power plant. "HAL, however, failed to overcome the shortcomings in the ALH even after five years as of December 2006. The inability to fly above 5,000 meters was due to the inability of HAL to reduce the empty weight of the helicopter as had been assured to the government," the CAG report said. "The army is compelled to rely on the old fleet of single engine Cheetah and Chetak helicopters which are of more than 30 years old technology," it added. "Failure of the army to acquire suitable ALHs timely has led to considerable dealy in de-induction of old fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, which may impact operational preparedness of the army adversely, especially in high altitude areas in forward locations," the report maintained.

ASIAN DEFENCE: Indian Army bought choppers with technical flaws

 

[wtf]

Who the heck is writing these stories ? The report from Auditor general is years old. ALH was flying with Tubomeca engines due to embargo and they were really underpowered. The newer ones all use Shakti engines. Even the story gives the date of 2006. No one even calls them ALH anymore.

As to the service ceiling issue, 6500 metres figure is true. But no other helicopter is designed to have such a high service ceiling. Helicopters inherently have limits to how high they go, I doubt anyone is going to design a helicopter with a ceiling higher than 7,000-8,000 meters unless they either figure out supersonic flow issues around rotor tips or make a really-really light rotor.

That said, Dhruv did actually fly higher than 6,500 meters
Bangalore ALH pilots fly high - Bangalore - Cities - The Times of India

The height hit on that flight is 8300 meters, which is just about 100 meters short of the height of Everest. How higher do you want a helicopter to fly?

 

[Mig-29]

First of all my apologies for the outdated report over here, would make sure that i check everything before posting here.
Thanks.

 

[SEAL]

."The ALH was not able to fly above 5,000 meters".

 

[sudhir007]

here is the link
:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

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Army bought choppers with technical flaws: Auditor
New Delhi, July 10: The 40 indigenously-built advanced light helicopters (ALHs) the Indian Army has bought for Rs 1,747 crore (Rs 356 million) have a technical flaw that prevents them from flying to heights of 6,500 metres, thus affecting operational preparedness in high altitude areas like the Siachen glacier, India's audit watchdog says.

"The ALH was not able to fly above 5,000 metres, though the Army's requirement stipulated an ability to fly upto 6,500 metres. This deficiency was because of the limitation of the engine used in ALHs," the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) said in his report released on Friday.

The Army needs choppers of the ALH category for quick movement of troops and logistics in operational areas, including in the extreme weather conditions of the Siachen Glacier. The helicopters are also meant to enhance surveillance capabilities.

The Indian Army bought the ALHs despite other shortcomings like unacceptably high vibration levels.

According to the report, the Army ordered the ALHs after its manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) said it would develop a more powerful engine to replace the existing power plant.

"HAL, however, failed to overcome the shortcomings in the ALH even after five years as of December 2006. The inability to fly above 5,000 metres was due to the inability of HAL to reduce the empty weight of the helicopter as had been assured to the government," the CAG report said.

"The Army is compelled to rely on the old fleet of single engine Cheetah and Chetak helicopters which are of more than 30 years old technology," it added.

"Failure of the Army to acquire suitable ALHs timely has led to considerable dealy in de-induction of old fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, which may impact operational preparedeness of the Army adversely, especially in high altitude areas in forward locations," the report maintained.

 

[sudhir007]

Dhruv clear high attitude test in 2007

Udhampur: India's advanced light helicopter (ALH) Dhruv has successfully cleared all test trials for regular high-altitude operations, especially in the Siachen glacier area of Jammu and Kashmir. The Dhruv was first inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 1998.

According to IAF sources, Dhruv cleared "all test trials" for flying over the Siachen glacier without "any error," and will now join the fleet of Chetak and Cheetah helicopters, which make daily trips to the area providing support services for troops based there.

With the clearance, the Dhruv has been validated for high-altitude, low temperature flying, which is essential for the maintenance of supply lines to the region.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore, manufactured chopper underwent a six-month long trial period with the Chandigarh-based Dhruv squadron, and flew under different weather conditions.

 

[skeptic9]

It appears too many Zardaris have managed to reach higher positions in the IA. The administration babus are already notorious for the same.

 

[rubyjackass]

HAL, DRDO and ISRO to some extent all suck.
HAL director kind of admitted this about his organization in a talk I attended.
Let some new companies with new people come. Only then India can hope to have a headway in technology. Buying things from these firms half heartedly is not going to take anyone anywhere. IT only increases insecurity among people.

 

[Munir]

Well...

HAL Cancels 10-12 ton Chopper Co-development Bid, to Re-tender in August
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has scrapped an active tender for the co-development of a 10-12 ton class medium lift helicopter for which Eurocopter and Mil were shortlisted as potential technology and investment partners. HAL has communicated to the two short-listed companies that the tender had to be scrapped because qualitiative requirements of the armed forces have substantially changed. A fresh tender is scheduled to be out in September.

 

[NSG_BlackCats]

HAL, DRDO and ISRO to some extent all suck.
HAL director kind of admitted this about his organization in a talk I attended.
Let some new companies with new people come. Only then India can hope to have a headway in technology. Buying things from these firms half heartedly is not going to take anyone anywhere. IT only increases insecurity among people.

The easiest thing in the world is to criticise others. Now a day’s even people like Nikhil Chopra and SabaKarim Criticises Sachin Tendulkar.
Sorry to go out of topic.

 

[wtf]

HAL, DRDO and ISRO to some extent all suck.
HAL director kind of admitted this about his organization in a talk I attended.
Let some new companies with new people come. Only then India can hope to have a headway in technology. Buying things from these firms half heartedly is not going to take anyone anywhere. IT only increases insecurity among people.

When it comes to work culture, I know some amount of second hand info. A lot of my friends used to / do work for these firms.

I'd say ISRO has probably the best work culture. I've been to Sri Harikota and Tumba and found the people pretty professional. (Obviously, I was an outsider, so could be that my experiences were superficial. But they do seem to have gotten everything they started to finish on time and successfully ).

HAL/NAL is mixed. They do a lot of good work but you can also slack off if you want to. At least in LCA times they used to do real good work. They also are right across from the airport in Bangalore and the fact that they have planes taking off every day gives them some amount of enthusiasm.

DRDO has to have the sloppiest work culture. They have a bunch of offices and they all are different, but here is the story from one of them. A friend described the daily routine like this. 10AM - Come to office. 11AM- Break for Tea/Samosa. 1PM-Lunch break. 2 PM - go to lab and do some work. 4PM - Tea break. 5:15PM - Go home.
GTRE (the engine people), I am not too sure, but they have not seemed to have gotten a single engine into production on their own.

But that said, Abdul Kalam seems to have gotten work done within DRDO too. The missiles project seems to have gone well.

It's pretty odd that the more civilian the organization is, the more efficient it is.

 

[wtf]

Well...

HAL Cancels 10-12 ton Chopper Co-development Bid, to Re-tender in August
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has scrapped an active tender for the co-development of a 10-12 ton class medium lift helicopter for which Eurocopter and Mil were shortlisted as potential technology and investment partners. HAL has communicated to the two short-listed companies that the tender had to be scrapped because qualitiative requirements of the armed forces have substantially changed. A fresh tender is scheduled to be out in September.

Wonder if this has anything to do with Sikorsky and Tata teaming up to build helicopters in India.

 

[sancho]

Wonder if this has anything to do with Sikorsky and Tata teaming up to build helicopters in India.

They don't build new choppers, TATA only makes the cabin of the S-92 to reduce costs of the heli.
The 10t class jv is still to be considered, but I wonder why Russian Mil wants to build a new one? Their Mi 38 is the replacement of Mi 8 and Mi 17 and has nearly completed development.

Mil Mi-38 Medium Transport Helicopter, Russia - Aerospace Technology

Btw, does anybody know the hangar size of our new Destroyers and Frigats btw? Would a Agusta Westland 101 (length 22,81m), or a Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone (length 20,9m) fit?
The IN has a competition for ASW helicopter to replace Sikorsky Sea Kings and maybe Kamov 28 (Dhruv was not able to fulfill the requirements, maybe range), but which other helicopter would fit in the Destroyers and Frigats except of the NH90 NFH (16,13m)?

 

[sudhir007]

See this pic ALH clear all the test