What's new

Indian army 'backed out' of Pakistan attack

Since almost every thread seems to end up in a India Vs Pakistan stick measuring contest with Indian members often resorting back to the 1971 war to salvage pride however more close to our times, the situation represents a different scenario. After the so called 27/11 Mumbai attack blamed on Pakistani Nationals, why was New Delhi reluctant to attack Pakistan is best described from an Indian prospective.
I hope we can have a healthy debate rather than the usual banter and chest thumping.


NEW DELHI - Reluctance for battle by an ill-prepared army could have resulted in India not launching an attack on Pakistan in the aftermath of the Pakistan-linked terror attack in the Indian city of Mumbai on November 26 in which nearly 200 people died.

High-level government sources have told Asia Times Online that army commanders impressed on the political leadership in New Delhi that an inadequate and obsolete arsenal at their disposal mitigated against an all-out war.

The navy and air force, however, had given the government the go-ahead about their preparedness to carry out an attack and repulse any retaliation from Pakistan.

Over the past few weeks, it has become increasingly apparent from top officials in the know that the closed-door meetings of top military commanders and political leaders discussed the poor state of the armory (both ammunition and artillery), and that this tilted the balance in favor of not striking at Pakistan.

According to senior officials, following the attack on Mumbai by 10 militants linked to Pakistan, India's top leadership looked at two options closely - war and hot pursuit.

Largely for the reasons cited above, the notion of an all-out war was rejected. Hot pursuit, however, remains very much on the table.

The government sources say that a framework for covert operations is being put in place, although India will continue to deny such actions. Crack naval, air and army forces backed by federal intelligence agencies will be involved. The target areas will be Pakistan-administered Kashmir and areas along the Punjab, such as Multan, where some of the Mumbai attackers are believed to have been recruited.

The coastal belt from the southern port city of Karachi to Gwadar in Balochistan province will also be under active Indian surveillance.

Thumbs down to war
Following the Mumbai attack, New Delhi's inclination was to launch a quick strike against Pakistan to impress domestic opinion, and then be prepared for a short war, given the pressures that would be exercised by international powers for a ceasefire to prevent nuclear war breaking out.

The expectation of New Delhi was that the war would go beyond the traditional skirmishes involving artillery fire that take place at the Kashmir border, essentially to check infiltration by militants, or the brief but bloody exchanges at Kargil in 1999.

It was in this context that the army made it apparent that it was not equipped to fight such a war, given the military's presence along the eastern Chinese borders, and that India was at risk of ceding territory should an instant ceasefire be brokered with Pakistan.

This would have been highly embarrassing, not to mention political suicide for the Congress-led government in an election year. So instead, New Delhi restricted itself to a strident diplomatic offensive that continues to date, and the option of hot pursuit.

The air force, on the other hand, was confident that it was prepared to take on the first retaliatory action by Pakistan, expected at forward air force bases along India's borders in Rajasthan, Gujarat and Indian-administered Kashmir. The role of the navy in the operations was not clearly defined, but it was to cover from the Arabian Sea.

Not ready to fight
Various experts, former generals and independent reports have voiced concern over the past few years about the state of preparedness of the Indian army.

For example, the Bofors gun scandal of the 1980s stymied the army's artillery modernization plan, with no induction of powerful guns since the 1986 purchase of 410 Bofors 155mm/39-caliber howitzers. The army has been trying to introduce 400 such guns from abroad and another 1,100 manufactured domestically, without success.

The latest report by the independent Comptroller and Auditor General said the state's production of 23mm ammunition for Shilka anti-aircraft cannons and 30mm guns mounted on infantry combat vehicles lacked quality. Further, supply was nearly 35% short of requirements.

India's huge tank fleet is in bad shape due to a shortage of Russian spare parts, while indigenous efforts, such as the main battle tank Arjun, have failed.

Signs of trouble emerged during the Kargil war when it was revealed that India's defense forces were dealing with acute shortages in every sphere.

In remarks that underscored the problems, the then-army chief, V P Malik, said his forces would make do with whatever was in hand, given the fears of a full-scale war that was eventually avoided due to pressure by America, then under president Bill Clinton.

The Kargil review committee report noted, "The heavy involvement of the army in counter-insurgency operations cannot but affect its preparedness for its primary role, which is to defend the country against external aggression."

Although there have been attempts to hasten India's overall defense modernization program, estimated at over US$50 billion over the next five years, gaping holes need to be plugged, including corruption and massive delays in the defense procurement processes.

India's defense expenditure has dipped below 2% of gross domestic product for the first time in decades, despite experts pegging 3% as adequate.

Other defense arms are in dire need of enhancement. Fighter jet squadrons are much below required strength, while the bidding process for medium fighter planes has only just begun and may take a few years to complete.

Meanwhile, the prospects of an India-Pakistan conflict are not over. India's army chief, General Deepak Kapoor, said last week that Pakistan had redeployed troops from its Afghan border to the western frontier with India. "The Indian army has factored this in its planning," Kapoor said.

Siddharth Srivastava is a New Delhi-based journalist. He can be reached at sidsri@yahoo.com.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KA21Df02.html

INDIAN ARMY NEVER START ANY WAR. Hence Proved.

Hope from now Pakistanis dont dream of IA being an offensive one with malicious intent. Case Closed.
 
.
INDIAN ARMY NEVER START ANY WAR. Hence Proved.

Hope from now Pakistanis dont dream of IA being an offensive one with malicious intent. Case Closed.

Except that Mrs Gandhi is on record for saying, ''India has entered East Pakistan in........self defence''. ?? :rolleyes:
 
.
Except that Mrs Gandhi is on record for saying, ''India has entered East Pakistan in........self defence''. ?? :rolleyes:
If thats da case then ur whole article doesnt stand. ;)

It simply mean that things were not that black n white what Pakistanis here try to prove.
 
.
Like i have stated a multiple times, if you believe in what you think, do it. If you can't then shut up and stop blabbering. There are equal number of Indians i meet everyday who are pissed at the condition of their country. We have our problems and we will solve them. No need for bs from you people like you. We can't compare ourselves to Indians because our forefathers taught us to raise our standards and not lower them.
Lol who is talking about standards you ... I have seen your rotten post in other threads too which doesn't reflect a level of Think tank .... Seems degradation of pdf starts from think tank ....
I know we have our set of problems n far bigger than your n i have no shame to deny that at the same time i am pretty happy that we are not labeled as terrorists country or a country which shelter Osama or a country begs outsider or a country which has a history of bowing down to their American masters list goes on.... But i am also hopeful that despite all the tough time of Pakistan n its people deserve a better future n far better than us ......
 
.
nsar missile alone (the tactical nuclear missile) is enough for indian army men. Nsar is nightmare for indian sugical strikes. Its the breakfast we prepared for you just after your attack. actually strategic weapons are not directly used on army but this tactical battle field missile is indian army specific.

you want to be the first country to attack its own soil with nuclear weapons? And what do you think will be India's response to your "tacticle" nuke?

Remember we have a no first use policy but once the nuke has been used all bets are off and we will have a devastating second strike that will obilterate whole of Pakistan,

If you really wanted to use nukes using nasr will be the most foolish thing to do.

To check effect of nuclear blast see NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein
 
.
Well it is a good rule to remember. Don't initiate a war(even a limited one) if you are not one hundred percent prepared.

Or you would end up like PAF in Kargil, standing and watching on the sidelines , while the enemy airforce , bombs the crap out of your troops.
You are ignoring the fact that the IAF was bombing area on the Indian side, the only time IAF ventured into Pakistani airspace, they found out to their cost.
 
.
because the legend Zardari said that he would move all the troops from western border and deploy them on eastern border! To hell with WoT... !!!
 
.
If thats da case then ur whole article doesnt stand. ;)

It simply mean that things were not that black n white what Pakistanis here try to prove.
The reality check is that unlike 1971, the situation in 2002 and later in 2008 was and is different, it's now clear that since the IA backed out, the IAF tried their mis-adventure and in process they were intercepted and escorted out.

The Day PAF Routed Out IAF
 
.
You are ignoring the fact that the IAF was bombing area on the Indian side, the only time IAF ventured into Pakistani airspace, they found out to their cost.

1.) One plane which was shot down, wasn't brought down by PAF.
2) It defies all logic that Pakistani army can cross into Indian territory to fight but PAF will not fly in support of its troops, even if it's being bombed to oblivion.

As an avid follower everything PAF, you are very well aware PAF neither had adequate spares or bvr missile for its front line fighters.

F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

In sum, the PAF found it expedient not to worry too much about minor border violations and instead, conserve resources for the larger conflagration that was looming. All the same, it gave the enemy no pretext for retaliation in the face of any provocation, though this latter stance irked some quarters in the Army that were desperate to ‘equal the match’. Might it strike to some that PAF’s restraint in warding off a major conflagration may have been its paramount contribution to the Kargil conflict?

M KAISER TUFAIL
 
.
1.) One plane which was shot down, wasn't brought down by PAF.
2) It defies all logic that Pakistani army can cross into Indian territory to fight but PAF will not fly in support of its troops, even if it's being bombed to oblivion.

As an avid follower everything PAF, you are very well aware PAF neither had adequate spares or bvr missile for its front line fighters.
Regardless of one or the two that were shot down, the point is taking out an aerial aggressor in a conflict isn't confined to the air force alone, in past Indo/Pak wars, majority of victims fell to ground fire. However coming back to the Kargil scenario, there were certain ROE in place by both sides, for example, why didn't India extend operation beyond it's own borders and confined it's actions in and around Kargil albeit we hear several peaks are still under Pakistani control. Similarly PAF remained operational within it's own airspace and even if one was to believe on the F-16 supply shortages, there were at least two other types to maintain the surveillance. As for bombing the PA troops to oblivion, one may question , since the bombing took place on the Indian side, how many bodies did the Indians recover unless you think the PA was able to retrieve them before pulling out.
 
.
I will never understand the pride Pakistanis take for the fact that India didn't retaliate against the terrorism emanating from their country. Wasn't this strike owned up by their own establishment as being perpetrated by their own citizens?

What exactly are they proud of? That they got away with another terrorist incident? Or that a bigger neighbor maintained restraint when severely provoked?

India might have backed out of various reasons but what exactly is it that they choose take pride and joy from this? Wasn't the killing and maiming of innocents, a sheer act of cowardice on their part? What exactly did they achieve?

It was not as if they occupied an Indian territory (a la Kargil) and India backed out instead of retaliating!!!
 
.
I will never understand the pride Pakistanis take for the fact that India didn't retaliate against the terrorism emanating from their country. Wasn't this strike owned up by their own establishment as being perpetrated by their own citizens?

What exactly are they proud of? That they got away with another terrorist incident? Or that a bigger neighbor maintained restraint when severely provoked?

India might have backed out of various reasons but what exactly is it that they choose take pride and joy from this? Wasn't the killing and maiming of innocents, a sheer act of cowardice on their part? What exactly did they achieve?

It was not as if they occupied an Indian territory (a la Kargil) and India backed out instead of retaliating!!!
The fact is Indians never stop gloating about 1971, any debate or argument and the Indians run back over 40 years to salvage some pride. Wasn't 1971 when India introduced terrorism in the shape of Mukti, Israel can take pride in beating it's larger neighbours, what's India's pride when they had a 10 :1 ratio in air force, some 50.000 Pakistani troops fighting much larger Indian army and mukti guerrillas simultaneously, these Pakistani soldiers away from home, without any supplies, reinforcements or aircover were in a no win situation, on the contrary when the odds were still very much in India's favour but since the Pak forces were on home ground and in better position, be it 2002 or 2008, Indians had to think twice. Get the point. !!
 
.
Sounds almost orgasmic ... but alas we are sentimental people ... we love the hate and love relationship we share. If we don't have that .. we don't have anything in common to share beside food, cricket, music and movies. :p:
Perfect !! We Pakistani have indian roots (whether we accept or reject). In Abroad we can better pretend to be an Indian then Irani/turk , we've more points to be One & less to be different
hahahah sahi baat hai , Pakistan ke bina indian kis ke sath troll krte aur india ke bina humari life boring ho jati :rofl:
:partay:
Well one need to look at the objective and result and consequence of a war be it a limited one....... India was never an aggressor and never will be one .
Now when it comes to capability, It will be stupid to believe that India does not hold capability or capacity to fight or initiate a war..... But then as i said before, there should a clear objective, plan to execute an attack..... In this case it would be little difficult because you do not have a clear objective on where to hit and at what force.... and What could be the outcome of such an attack....and how to ensure that the objective is met......
Good ! Carry on ...Your Indians counterpart are watching you....(shabash)
do something extraordinary with facts&figures........
 
Last edited:
.
Well it is a good rule to remember. Don't initiate a war(even a limited one) if you are not one hundred percent prepared.

Or you would end up like PAF in Kargil, standing and watching on the sidelines , while the enemy airforce , bombs the crap out of your troops.

Agreed.

There are other means available to us.
 
.
Perfect !! We Pakistani have indian roots (whether we accept or reject). In Abroad we can better pretend to be an Indian then Irani/turk , we've more points to be One & less to be different

:partay:

Good ! Carry on ...Your Indians counterpart are watching you....(shabash)
do something extraordinary with facts&figures........
Pakistanis have their own rich culture and heritage, It's just they been getting lot of negative coverage in international news. Don't want to come across as someone who is preaching:p:. But I wish and want friendly relations with between our countries. :tup:
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom