Indian Agni-4 launch stirs fears of local nuclear war in S Asia amid arms race

[SOHEIL]

You need high energic solid fuel, if you want a capable solid fuel ICBM.

 

[BDforever]

it is not S.Asia.. it is better to say Between Indian and Pakistan

 

[typoerror]

And where did I say that the Chinese tested a scramjet? I just compared the Chinese vehicle to the Shaurya.
Your claim was that the missile would have a 40km cruising altitude (throughout the flight). Whereas in the chinese case it may well be that the rocket propelled the vehicle outside the atmosphere, it was deployed, re-entered, performed manoeuvres and hit its target (if there was one).

Any more BS you want to bust?

Dude, you are not addressing any of the arguments that i am putting forth. and i did not accuse you of anything. Dont start every thread with "when did I bla bla or where did i ..." . The point is you say 5K rocket boosted hypersonic vehicle not possible. I say you pulled that out of your ***. And I have given you as much reasoning as possible.

Regarding the Chinese case, you are speculating. If thats all it did, its nothing more than a MaRV. As all ICBM have hypersonic terminal speed.

Either way the concept has been demonstrate for 2K KM by DRDO. Physically the Shaurya is half the Size of A4. So do I think its possible, yes. Do I think they already tested it? No. Cause DRDO starts chest thumping 2 months before it accomplishes something. So maybe Hari's news snippet is an indicator that a test may well be round the corner.

@typoerror needs to be polite .

thanks for your meaningful , logical and sensible posts . It's nice to read how neatly you explain things ...

Don't mind this guy's outburst !

1) Please go to page one and check who put in the first sarcastic comment.
2) spare me the discourse, we are all but internet clowns.

 

[The Deterrent]

Dude, you are not addressing any of the arguments that i am putting forth. and i did not accuse you of anything. Dont start every thread with "when did I bla bla or where did i ..." . The point is you say 5K rocket boosted hypersonic vehicle not possible. I say you pulled that out of your ***. And I have given you as much reasoning as possible.

Your post talked about sustained 40km altitude, which I negated. Nowhere I meant to convey that 5K km rocket boosted (not quasi-ballistic) hypersonic vehicle was not possible. What your post suggested was an enlarged version (5k km) of Shaurya, which I do not consider possible. But something like Topol-M's ReV? By all means.

Regarding the Chinese case, you are speculating. If thats all it did, its nothing more than a MaRV. As all ICBM have hypersonic terminal speed.

Yes indeed I am. Umm no, MaRVs cannot attain those velocities after re-entry, they are slowed down to ~Mach 4. ICBMs have hypersonic terminal speeds before and during re-entry, after that they are slowed down.

 

[typoerror]

Your post talked about sustained 40km altitude, which I negated. Nowhere I meant to convey that 5K km rocket boosted (not quasi-ballistic) hypersonic vehicle was not possible. What your post suggested was an enlarged version (5k km) of Shaurya, which I do not consider possible. But something like Topol-M's ReV? By all means.


Yes indeed I am. Umm no, MaRVs cannot attain those velocities after re-entry, they are slowed down to ~Mach 4. ICBMs have hypersonic terminal speeds before and during re-entry, after that they are slowed down.

I gave you enough reasoning about why I think its possible. You gave none other that, it will be too heavy. care to show me some calculations? no. my reasoning is simple, the shaurya can be scaled. and a shaurya twice the current size will be about the size of Agni 4. I cannot speculate range. But yes its possible as its been demonstrated.

A hypersonic glide vehicle will also slow down to the same speeds, as it decends, its not going to be able to maintain constant velocity and it does not fall like a stone, it glides.

 

[The Deterrent]

I gave you enough reasoning about why I think its possible. You gave none other that, it will be too heavy. care to show me some calculations? no. my reasoning is simple, the shaurya can be scaled. and a shaurya twice the current size will be about the size of Agni 4. I cannot speculate range. But yes its possible as its been demonstrated.

(First, please consider that while discussing Shaurya, its 40-50km cruise flight profile for 700km range is being considered.)

The problem is, that if you scale things up, the mass is increased too much, which calls for a correspondingly higher thrust engine (with obviously low burn-rate fuel) to keep the missile cruising. Furthermore, the agility of the system is severely compromised in scaled up aerial vehicles. This means that more time will be needed to get the missile to a stable cruising altitude, which would be way higher than 40 km.

Now let us come to the structure of the proposed missile. Since it is large (twice as much as Shaurya), the rocket motor has to be staged. All the stages would have to be heat shielded (to a some extent, as compared to conventional motors). Further it should have such lift generating surfaces, which continue to provide lift even as the primary stages are detached.
A vehicle like this would have a very very complex design, and it would be far better to develop a simple ballistic missile which can propel a BGRV to the required distance.

A hypersonic glide vehicle will also slow down to the same speeds, as it decends, its not going to be able to maintain constant velocity and it does not fall like a stone, it glides.

It depends on the design of the vehicle and if it is powered or not.

 

[typoerror]

(First, please consider that while discussing Shaurya, its 40-50km cruise flight profile for 700km range is being considered.)

The problem is, that if you scale things up, the mass is increased too much, which calls for a correspondingly higher thrust engine (with obviously low burn-rate fuel) to keep the missile cruising. Furthermore, the agility of the system is severely compromised in scaled up aerial vehicles. This means that more time will be needed to get the missile to a stable cruising altitude, which would be way higher than 40 km.

Now let us come to the structure of the proposed missile. Since it is large (twice as much as Shaurya), the rocket motor has to be staged. All the stages would have to be heat shielded (to a some extent, as compared to conventional motors). Further it should have such lift generating surfaces, which continue to provide lift even as the primary stages are detached.
A vehicle like this would have a very very complex design, and it would be far better to develop a simple ballistic missile which can propel a BGRV to the required distance.


It depends on the design of the vehicle and if it is powered or not.

(not relevant to the discussion. chinese tested an unpowered one, hence by your reasoning its nothing more than a MaRV))

You have listed engineering challenges. I still don't see you make a point to prove impossibility. regarding the last line I suppose you meant as opposed to quasi ballistic trajectory. Thats your assumption. From an armed forced perspective, they want options covering as wide a spectrum as possible. If a ballistic missile with suppressed trajectory is capable of attaining half the range whilst hitting a difficult to detect altitude of 40km, its a game changer. India has demonstrated success with a missile like Shaurya. Only a fool would think DRDO has wrapped up that program and has no intention of scaling it.

 

[Lil Mathew]

Those horizontal S-manoeuvres were performed by the American BGRV, which was a test platform. It would be difficult to speculate if Shaurya possesses this capability as well, but if it does, it will further decrease its range.

Shaurya applies air brakes and reduce its speed to supersonic speed before starting manoeuvers.. It is not capable of hypersonic glides.. India till date didn't done even a MARV test let alone hypersonic glide.. Between what is the diff btw Marv and BGRV??

 

[HariPrasad]

Yes, thats what I'm saying. That when it is said that a temperature of 4000C was sustained, it was sustained by the ReV consisting of the payload section only. Not payload+second stage, as second stage cannot survive re-entry.

Second is probably made of same material or different material which can sustain same temperature as warhead section though the temperature will not be so high as warhead section as second stage will never phase or face a little resistance of air. What it will face is skin drag only. Second stage is powered and have fuel to cruise. I think that warhead section also have fuel. I am not sure about A4 but A5 has it.

Contradiction in what? I didn't get your question.

By restarting I meant powered flight in the terminal stage.

your above sentence seemed to me a bit outside the line of your argument.

If it doesn't have a lift generating surface, it can't "cruise" unless it is powered. It will follow a steep trajectory during re-entry.

It all depends on when second stage separates. If it enters atmosphere, It certainly can cruise.

Same was the case with the Chinese hypersonic test vehicle- they used a ballistic missile as a booster and ISRO used a sounding rocket in that place.

But the difference is that ISRO tested scremjet engine where china didn't.

 

[HariPrasad]

India has some experience in Ramjet , scramjet technology thanks to Brahmos JV ...which has given immense insight into these complex technologies to India scientists ...

You forgot Akash developed much prior to Brahmos.

Those horizontal S-manoeuvres were performed by the American BGRV, which was a test platform. It would be difficult to speculate if Shaurya possesses this capability as well, but if it does, it will further decrease its range.

That is correct but it is true irrespective of any missile type. If it decrease the range of shaurya, It decrease the range of other missiles as well.

 

[HariPrasad]

The problem is, that if you scale things up, the mass is increased too much, which calls for a correspondingly higher thrust engine (with obviously low burn-rate fuel) to keep the missile cruising. Furthermore, the agility of the system is severely compromised in scaled up aerial vehicles. This means that more time will be needed to get the missile to a stable cruising altitude, which would be way higher than 40 km.

Bigger missile doesn't mean agility is compromised since the portion which performs maneuvers is not missile itself but the warhead section or the at the most glide vehicle. both are independent of range of missile because to a large extent, the range is a function of burn time and velocity of first and second stage.

Now let us come to the structure of the proposed missile. Since it is large (twice as much as Shaurya), the rocket motor has to be staged. All the stages would have to be heat shielded (to a some extent, as compared to conventional motors). Further it should have such lift generating surfaces, which continue to provide lift even as the primary stages are detached.
A vehicle like this would have a very very complex design, and it would be far better to develop a simple ballistic missile which can propel a BGRV to the required distance.

What sort of lift generating surface are you talking about? It is more related to plane and not missile cruising at a very high speed. At very high speed lift generated by the surface of glide vehicle and warhead is is sufficient to glide and I do not think that any additional control surface is required to glide. additional control surface may create additional drag and slow down speed. For any correction in glide path, thruster motors are there.

 

[The Deterrent]

(not relevant to the discussion. chinese tested an unpowered one, hence by your reasoning its nothing more than a MaRV))

You have listed engineering challenges. I still don't see you make a point to prove impossibility. regarding the last line I suppose you meant as opposed to quasi ballistic trajectory. Thats your assumption. From an armed forced perspective, they want options covering as wide a spectrum as possible. If a ballistic missile with suppressed trajectory is capable of attaining half the range whilst hitting a difficult to detect altitude of 40km, its a game changer. India has demonstrated success with a missile like Shaurya. Only a fool would think DRDO has wrapped up that program and has no intention of scaling it.

(O-kay).

Those challenges are too great to be met by the current and near future technology, that is why I consider it impossible. If you don't agree with it, its not problem, I'm not trying to shove my opinion down your throat.
The Armed forces are satisfied enough with the current developments. If defeating BMDs is the purpose, MaRVs can do the job at very little relative cost.
Lets see if DRDO comes up with something like that in future, shall we?

Shaurya applies air brakes and reduce its speed to supersonic speed before starting manoeuvers.. It is not capable of hypersonic glides.. India till date didn't done even a MARV test let alone hypersonic glide.. Between what is the diff btw Marv and BGRV??

Can you provide some links about that?
The difference lies in speed in the terminal stage inside atmosphere. MaRVs are slowed down to ~Mach 4 while BGRVs can/cannot manoeuvre while moving at above hypersonic speeds.

Second is probably made of same material or different material which can sustain same temperature as warhead section though the temperature will not be so high as warhead section as second stage will never phase or face a little resistance of air. What it will face is skin drag only. Second stage is powered and have fuel to cruise. I think that warhead section also have fuel. I am not sure about A4 but A5 has it.

I already told you that from the looks it seems that the second stage is not designed to re-enter the atmosphere intact. Besides the tail of the second stage has a larger skirt attached which again will increase drag. I don't think second stage cruises because its simply too small and has too less fuel to cover that much distance. Yes warhead section (ReV) has hydrazine-based thrusters.

your above sentence seemed to me a bit outside the line of your argument.

I meant to say that second stage will be expended soon enough too (while the missile is still in ascent), and for the second stage to "cruise" in the terminal stage, it would have to be shut down for the midcourse. Which isn't possible.

It all depends on when second stage separates. If it enters atmosphere, It certainly can cruise.

But how can it maintain altitude if it is not powered?

That is correct but it is true irrespective of any missile type. If it decrease the range of shaurya, It decrease the range of other missiles as well.

Of course.

Bigger missile doesn't mean agility is compromised since the portion which performs maneuvers is not missile itself but the warhead section or the at the most glide vehicle. both are independent of range of missile because to a large extent, the range is a function of burn time and velocity of first and second stage

Yes, yes you are correct in this case (where the vehicle is separated from the bigger boosting platform). I was talking about an enlarged version of Shaurya (in which warhead separation does not takes place, the whole vehicle hits the target intact).

What sort of lift generating surface are you talking about? It is more related to plane and not missile cruising at a very high speed. At very high speed lift generated by the surface of glide vehicle and warhead is is sufficient to glide and I do not think that any additional control surface is required to glide. additional control surface may create additional drag and slow down speed. For any correction in glide path, thruster motors are there.

I was referring to something like fins on Shaurya or the shape of the vehicle itself (like X-51). So something like Agni-IV cannot "cruise" (maintain constant altitude inside the atmosphere).

 

[HariPrasad]

(not relevant to the discussion. chinese tested an unpowered one, hence by your reasoning its nothing more than a MaRV))

You have listed engineering challenges. I still don't see you make a point to prove impossibility. regarding the last line I suppose you meant as opposed to quasi ballistic trajectory. Thats your assumption. From an armed forced perspective, they want options covering as wide a spectrum as possible. If a ballistic missile with suppressed trajectory is capable of attaining half the range whilst hitting a difficult to detect altitude of 40km, its a game changer. India has demonstrated success with a missile like Shaurya. Only a fool would think DRDO has wrapped up that program and has no intention of scaling it.

In fact the whole K series is the missiles of same family. K4 and K5 are enlarged version of shaurya or K15 ro you may say that technology developed for K15 is used in K4.

 

[hari sud]

Glad to know that Agni 4 as well as 5 are knocking some sense into India's western as well as northern neighbours.

Agni 4 can sure reach China's new built missile storage silos and mobile missile storage yards north of Tibet. It tells Chinese for hands off the nuclear trigger.

Agni 5 will reach Peking with ease and permanently cripple Chinese political elite on pressing the nuclear button.

Hence Agni 4 and 5 long overdue may ultimately become peace makers.

Forget Pakistan, Agni 2 can do most of the job. In Pakistan you have to watch the Jihadi Generals, who after loosing the ground war, may press the nuclear button. There is only one way out that is to guarantee a nuclear retaliation which will send Pakistan back to stone age.