India undertaking major rejig of fighter induction to meet threats from Pak, China

[Joe Shearer]

Well it is your choice. But you are one who asked / raised this point and I replied.
Anyway I read your other points/reply which is quite outstanding observer. But yes it can be taken care of. Already there is plan in for issues you raised.

TO dig deeper - China is preparing for a threat , if needed a war(limited) to annexe Jammy and Kashmir to Pakistan. So, let us see how many brainers in India to dissovle this threat.

I couldn't really understand your post.

 

[Spectre]

The third part needs us to overhaul our entire philosophy of war-fighting on the western front (as distinct from the eastern and northern fronts). It is this part that is worrying. We seem to be gearing ourselves up to fight the previous war, not future wars.

The second part surely needs neutralisation through air defence capabilities, and a far greater concentration on missile defense than is now the case. We simply cannot fight the Chinese at the airfield level, not as long as they can defeat us at the photocopying machine and the forced cheap labour fronts. That, in any case, is a separate subject.

Regarding the PLAAF threat - asymmetric approaches need to identified as you have suggested but at the same time upgrading domestic MIC should be taken up on war front. Present Govt is I believe on the right track with this approach. Obviously this is a long term project and would decades to for Indian MIC to catch upto Chinese one - so holding action in form of buying expensive fighters which would give us a qualitative edge is not altogether a bad idea.

Edward P Warner said long back in 1934 Generals and Soldiers would always fight the last war. This is why the third part is hits right to the bone. Only a few people have the sufficient expertise to expand on it in a informed manner as this would require counter intuitive thinking. May be open up a new thread expounding on this?

 

[sankar]

I meant your observation is correct. And want you to see deeper in your points itself. China is getting ready to trouble India Indirectly and Pakistan is getting ready for a war before end 2016. So, China is building up its PLAAF in Tibet in big manner - which is ofcourse equal to or more than 42 squadron size of India in Tibet Alone. This makes sure India do not use its Airpower against pakistan.

Similarly China is gifting Navy to Pakistan. And on top of it China has sent 25,000 troops in Azad Kashmir already to steady the geography of J&K region. Already China announced in front of world the reduction of 3,00,000 PLA. but all those will be utilised for proxy wars. Approx 100,000 will be in Azad Kashmir. Another 100,000 will be for Taiwan and Rest for SCS.

This Chinese strategy is quite effective and dangerous - the try to use the same as pakistan for proxy wars. I.e, those were retired and China does not take responsibility if anything goes wrong or against their plan. Hope you understand what I am trying to say .

 

[Abingdonboy]

LOLed at "Mk-II Scrapped"..then I noticed,its TOI.

by the way,this one may interests you guys..

Parrikar cuts Gordian knot to boost Tejas line

For years, the development of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has followed a two-stage road map: First, an initial Tejas Mark I was to be developed, powered by the General Electric (GE) F-404IN engine. A more capable Tejas Mark II, featuring the more powerful GE F-414 engine, would follow this.

The Business Standard first reported (August 13, With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1A) the proposal to build an interim fighter, referred to as the Tejas Mark 1A.

Now the Business Standard has details of the interim fighter, which would fly with the same F-404 engine as the Tejas Mark I, but yet be more capable than the version currently cleared for production.

The aeronautical establishment is referring to the interim fighter as Tejas Mark 1A, though this name has not been officially allocated.

The Mark 1A will overcome a major drawback in the Mark I, the absence of a "self-protection jammer". Fighter aircraft have these "electronic warfare" (EW) systems to jam or blind enemy radars, preventing them from detecting the aircraft; and to prevent air-to-air and ground-to-air missiles from homing onto the fighter.

The Tejas Mark I was to have an "on-board EW system", but lacks the space for one. It has, therefore, been decided to develop an EW pod for the Mark 1A, which will be carried externally under the fighter's wing.

The Mark 1A will also have a mid-air refuelling probe to enhance its endurance and operational range. It will be integrated with long-range Derby and Python air-to-air missiles for aerial combat, and its internal systems will be re-arranged for better accessibility, making the fighter easier to maintain.

Ministry and Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) sources say defence minister Manohar Parrikar has thrown his weight behind this initiative. At his persuasion, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has begun preparing a procurement proposal for 80 Tejas fighters, over and above the 20 Tejas Mark I already on order in "initial operational certification" configuration.

The IAF had earlier agreed to buy another 20 Tejas Mark I, once the fighter obtains "final operational certification", a much-delayed landmark expected in early 2016. It is unclear whether that order will stand, or be integrated into the proposed order for 80 Tejas Mark 1As.

Parrikar's decisive move cuts a Gordian knot that has bedevilled Tejas production. For years Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), the agency that will mass-produce the Tejas, has resisted increasing production-line capacity, because the IAF has only committed to buying 40 fighters. In a chicken-and-egg situation, the IAF cites HAL's slow production rate as the reason for not ordering more Tejas.

The result: In the past two years, HAL has built just one Tejas. Meanwhile, the IAF responds to its dwindling fighter numbers - now only 34 squadrons - with demands for quickly buying large numbers of the Dassault Rafale from France.

Parrikar calculates that, with an order for 100 Tejas in hand, HAL will have the business case for quickly boosting production to at least 16 fighters per year.

Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark II will continue development, say sources in the DRDO, which oversees the Tejas development programme.

A defence ministry official concurs, pointing out: "The Tejas Mark II is not just for the IAF. The navy believes the Naval Tejas must have an F-414 engine to be able to take off from an aircraft carrier's short deck. So Tejas Mark II development will continue alongside the Mark 1A."

With the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) - the DRDO agency that has built the Tejas - targeting 2022-23 for completing the Tejas Mark II, HAL has seven years of production of the Mark I and the Mark IA. The defence ministry calculates that a 100-Tejas order is essential to keep it working to capacity.

Meanwhile, alongside the Tejas Mark II, ADA would also be working on the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), an indigenous, fifth-generation fighter already on the drawing board. ADA engineers point out that advanced technologies being developed for AMCA would inevitably leak into the Tejas Mark II, making the light fighter more advanced than currently anticipated.

Parrikar cuts Gordian knot to boost Tejas line | Business Standard News

much better reporting.

Basically the ADA is proposing concurrency- a practice followed across the world with fighter projects.

 

[sankar]

I couldn't really understand your post.

I meant your observation is correct. And want you to see deeper in your points itself. China is getting ready to trouble India Indirectly and Pakistan is getting ready for a war before end 2016. So, China is building up its PLAAF in Tibet in big manner - which is ofcourse equal to or more than 42 squadron size of India in Tibet Alone. This makes sure India do not use its Airpower against pakistan.

Similarly China is gifting Navy to Pakistan. And on top of it China has sent 25,000 troops in *** already to steady the geography of J&K region. Already China announced in front of world the reduction of 3,00,000 PLA. but all those will be utilised for proxy wars. Approx 100,000 will be in ***. Another 100,000 will be for Taiwan and Rest for SCS.

This Chinese strategy is quite effective and dangerous - the try to use the same as pakistan for proxy wars. I.e, those were retired and China does not take responsibility if anything goes wrong or against their plan. Hope you understand what I am trying to say .

Source: India undertaking major rejig of fighter induction to meet threats from Pak, China | Page 2

 

[GR!FF!N]

Basically the ADA is proposing concurrency- a practice followed across the world with fighter projects.

which EW pod Tejas will carry??

I though Tejas carries Mayavi EW suit.but the reporting is saying otherwise.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Regarding the PLAAF threat - asymmetric approaches need to identified as you have suggested but at the same time upgrading domestic MIC should be taken up on war front. Present Govt is I believe on the right track with this approach. Obviously this is a long term project and would decades to for Indian MIC to catch upto Chinese one - so holding action in form of buying expensive fighters which would give us a qualitative edge is not altogether a bad idea.

Somehow, I think a multi-layer missile defense is really our only reasonable solution.

Edward P Warner said long back in 1934 Generals and Soldiers would always fight the last war. This is why the third part is hits right to the bone. Only a few people have the sufficient expertise to expand on it in a informed manner as this would require counter intuitive thinking. May be open up a new thread expounding on this?

I'd rather not; there are reasons.

But just looking at the acute shortage of attack helicopters should give us a clue. Plus putting together the average speed of an armoured division today and the speed that might be achievable if we configure a force with greater integration among its units. Think ground effect vehicles for troop transport, high-speed mobile mountings for missile batteries, far greater communications with bandwidth several orders of magnitude higher than today, close support ground attack fighters for mobile columns, complete with high speed support for fuel supply and ordnance replenishment.

In that connection, does not the need for a light-weight combat aircraft capable of landing and take off on very rough air strips just jump out of the page at you?

I meant your observation is correct. And want you to see deeper in your points itself. China is getting ready to trouble India Indirectly and Pakistan is getting ready for a war before end 2016. So, China is building up its PLAAF in Tibet in big manner - which is ofcourse equal to or more than 42 squadron size of India in Tibet Alone. This makes sure India do not use its Airpower against pakistan.

Similarly China is gifting Navy to Pakistan. And on top of it China has sent 25,000 troops in *** already to steady the geography of J&K region. Already China announced in front of world the reduction of 3,00,000 PLA. but all those will be utilised for proxy wars. Approx 100,000 will be in ***. Another 100,000 will be for Taiwan and Rest for SCS.

This Chinese strategy is quite effective and dangerous - the try to use the same as pakistan for proxy wars. I.e, those were retired and China does not take responsibility if anything goes wrong or against their plan. Hope you understand what I am trying to say .

Source: India undertaking major rejig of fighter induction to meet threats from Pak, China | Page 2

Much better post, thank you. Now it makes sense.

 

[sankar]

Somehow, I think a multi-layer missile defense is really our only reasonable solution.



I'd rather not; there are reasons.

But just looking at the acute shortage of attack helicopters should give us a clue. Plus putting together the average speed of an armoured division today and the speed that might be achievable if we configure a force with greater integration among its units. Think ground effect vehicles for troop transport, high-speed mobile mountings for missile batteries, far greater communications with bandwidth several orders of magnitude higher than today, close support ground attack fighters for mobile columns, complete with high speed support for fuel supply and ordnance replenishment.

In that connection, does not the need for a light-weight combat aircraft capable of landing and take off on very rough air strips just jump out of the page at you?



Much better post, thank you. Now it makes sense.

Thank you. The starss were Kashmir under Pakistan. Now you might know more clear.

 

[Rocky25]

TO dig deeper - China is preparing for a threat , if needed a war(limited) to annexe Jammy and Kashmir to Pakistan. So, let us see how many brainers in India to dissovle this threat.

China fighting on behalf of Pakistan.... Oh give me a break... I know Chinese for many things, but they are NOT emotional fools!

 

[45'22']

IAF is second in the waiting line after Navy..
Scrapping or not, development of mk2 will continue

TOI lol

which EW pod Tejas will carry??

I though Tejas carries Mayavi EW suit.but the reporting is saying otherwise.

Litening or EL/L-8222 unless we are planning to make one

 

[Omega007]

Somehow, I think a multi-layer missile defense is really our only reasonable solution.

Can not the only one,since if the air space is lost,then the ground based air defence network won't last long either,you can bet your everything on that one!!
So in my opinion,IAF needs to take a multi pronged approach if it hopes to successfully counter the growing threat from PLAAF.And in that regard,we would need more numbers of small and nimble and CHEAPER air defence fighters,which we can produce in numbers and will be used to saturate the potential strike sorties emanating from China,there by overwhelming them with combined assault from both air and ground!!That's the way to do it,that's the only way to do it!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Can not the only one,since if the air space is lost,then the ground based air defence network won't last long either,you can bet your everything on that one!!
So in my opinion,IAF needs to take a multi pronged approach if it hopes to successfully counter the growing threat from PLAAF.And in that regard,we would need more numbers of small and nimble and CHEAPER air defence fighters,which we can produce in numbers and will be used to saturate the potential strike sorties emanating from China,there by overwhelming them with combined assault from both air and ground!!That's the way to do it,that's the only way to do it!!

In that case, that resonates with point 3, and underlines our greater need for very many very reliable light-weight fighter and fighter-bomber aircraft. We don't need high-performance air superiority fighters, we need workhorses that can keep up the pressure over a protracted period of time.

 

[Last Samuri]

I THINK IAF will scrap TEJAS MK2

Acquire 120 AESA equipped MK1A fighters between now and 2027

Drop the FGFA completely

MASSIVE UPGRADE OF 280 SU30MKI to Super MKI

and order MORE RAFALES

I think the F35 will join indian NAVY IN 2025 with VISHAL CARRIER

 

[Omega007]

In that case, that resonates with point 3, and underlines our greater need for very many very reliable light-weight fighter and fighter-bomber aircraft. We don't need high-performance air superiority fighters, we need workhorses that can keep up the pressure over a protracted period of time.

We need both types,that's why I said that we need to take a multi-pronged approach but what I should have said was that what we need is a multi pronged hierarchical approach to address the outstanding military situation,that presently prevails around our neighborhood.Because to win a war,or even sustain it,you have to take the fight to your enemy at some point or the other.You can't just defend yourself for an indefinite point of time period and dish out no actual damage to your enemy,no sir.............especially not against an enemy as big and as resourceful as the People's Republic of China!!Because,in any war with them,no matter how much we try to avoid it,but it will eventually turn into a brutal and bloody war of attrition and in such a scenario,they can out live us by a long shot!!That's why we also have to make preparations not to just defend what is ours bit to take the fight to them as well,to inflict proportionate level of damage to their infrastructure as well!!In other words,we have to develop the capability to turn this whole god damn business so much costly to them that any gain afterwards would simply become useless for them!!And for that to achieve,we need significant number of top heavy fighters.But with MMRCA,what the IAF is doing,is that they are turning themselves into a completely top heavy air force,which can never be sustained for a long time.Hope sanity prevails and the development work on MkII gets speeded up!!That's our only hope now.

I THINK IAF will scrap TEJAS MK2

Acquire 120 AESA equipped MK1A fighters between now and 2027

Drop the FGFA completely

MASSIVE UPGRADE OF 280 SU30MKI to Super MKI

and order MORE RAFALES

I think the F35 will join indian NAVY IN 2025 with VISHAL CARRIER

Foolery of the highest magnitude imaginable!!

China fighting on behalf of Pakistan.... Oh give me a break... I know Chinese for many things, but they are NOT emotional fools!

This reminds me the words of Sir @Officer of Engineers (aka OOE) from WAB,it goes like,"China will fight India to the last Pakistani"!!

 

[Mirza Jatt]

Can not the only one,since if the air space is lost,then the ground based air defence network won't last long either,you can bet your everything on that one!!
So in my opinion,IAF needs to take a multi pronged approach if it hopes to successfully counter the growing threat from PLAAF.And in that regard,we would need more numbers of small and nimble and CHEAPER air defence fighters,which we can produce in numbers and will be used to saturate the potential strike sorties emanating from China,there by overwhelming them with combined assault from both air and ground!!That's the way to do it,that's the only way to do it!!

Totally agreed. Ground based air defence system will prove to be the ultimate saviour but they need protection too... so we need to engage the PLAAF fighters in the air space and that's only possible if we get the numbers increasing fast. But we can see India focusing on air defence systems now, which gives us the idea that they too are seriously working on this particular threat.