India undertaking major rejig of fighter induction to meet threats from Pak, China

[Omega007]

Totally agreed. Ground based air defence system will prove to be the ultimate saviour but they need protection too... so we need to engage the PLAAF fighters in the air space and that's only possible if we get the numbers increasing fast. But we can see India focusing on air defence systems now, which gives us the idea that they too are seriously working on this particular threat.

Exactly.But if we are to believe the words of Mr Sourav Jha,(although I'm still skeptical about it) that IAF is planning to induct upto 400 Tejas variants,then it won't be too far fetched to say that lately IAF is been thinking the exact thing - that it needs to take a combined interceptor - ground air defence aproach to try and overwhelm and ultimately beat back the PLAAF strike sorties.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well it is your choice. But you are one who asked / raised this point and I replied.

You have a point.

Anyway I read your other points/reply which is quite outstanding observer. But yes it can be taken care of. Already there is plan in for issues you raised.

You speak with great authority. We shall not question that, but it is strange for a senior official of the MoD to be on a Pakistani Defence site.

TO dig deeper - China is preparing for a threat , if needed a war(limited) to annexe Jammy and Kashmir to Pakistan. So, let us see how many brainers in India to dissovle this threat.

Ah.

This is sensational.

We shall need every one of those 56". Thank Heavens that we have so many inches to spare.

Exactly.But if we are to believe the words of Mr Sourav Jha,(although I'm still skeptical about it) that IAF is planning to induct upto 400 Tejas variants,then it won't be too far fetched to say that lately IAF is been thinking the exact thing - that it needs to take a combined interceptor - ground air defence aproach to try and overwhelm and ultimately beat back the PLAAF strike sorties.

Positioning the Tejas against the PLAAF is a truly disastrous idea.

 

[Omega007]

Positioning the Tejas against the PLAAF is a truly disastrous idea.

Why do you think it will be only Tejas??You seem to not getting the point - there is a reason I said we need to take a hierarchical approach to counter the threat of PLAAF!!True,that in its present form,Tejas doesn't have much of a chance against their Su copies but IAF won't be buying anymore of the MkIs than the 40 ordered already.But the MkII with higher thrust engines (already decided),AESA radars (Uttam AESA,should be ready by the time the MkII gets ready for induction),MAWS (already developed),OBOGS (already developed),IFR probes,IRST,HMDS (TopSight 1 maybe ) - Python 5 combo and active solid state multi spectral jammers will be a different beast altogether and when supported by ground based air defence network,AWACS and heavy fighters can cause severe damage any PLAAF strike formation that intrudes Indian air space,(if at all they do so,as they can target objectives with long range PGMs from the safety of their air space).What I'm saying here is that,do not think of it as a stand alone system that will be sent to hunt down PLAAF fighters but as merely a part of a bigger and more complex and vast system,comprising ground air defence,other fighters and AWACS - all networked together and acting as a huge 'net' to entangle and eventually blunt the PLAAF offensives by bogging them down.In other words,we need the Tejas,the MkII to be precise,to make up the numbers.
I mean soon our Air Force will have to replace atleast 350 Mig 21s and 27s and we can not make up for it with just 126 Rafales,especially at the hopping cost of 30 Billion USDs!!If we are to spend that much amount of money,then why not just wait a few more years and increase the order book of the FGFA then??!!Why waste so much money on an essentially previous generation fighter,when we are to get a next generation beast,which will be a head and shoulder above in virtually every category there, in just 5-6 years??!!

 

[sankar]

China fighting on behalf of Pakistan.... Oh give me a break... I know Chinese for many things, but they are NOT emotional fools!

Certainly not. But it is China's own interest to capture as much as Ladak and whole of Arunachal Pradesh. Chinese cold doctrine seems leaked (maybe fake), but it shows future plan to capture Andaman Nicobar Islands (after Arunachal and Burma) . Other Norther Eastern India states under Chinese radar but they seems to looking for proxy government.

All I am saying is this is game by China thru Pakistan as it will try to get both Kashmir and Arunachal in one shot.

But I have to give credit to Ajit Doval, his team sensed the sensitive part of the plans and trying to make international issue if it happens. Some other way China may face SCS countries and may loose Tibet, Xinxiang province. Other countries are just waiting for China to start something to react but with heavy combined punch .

All the game is going on in Asia but played by most of world powers. Russia support China UN but will not send its troops to save China unless US gets involved directly into this.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why do you think it will be only Tejas??You seem to not getting the point - there is a reason I said we need to take a hierarchical approach to counter the threat of PLAAF!!True,that in its present form,Tejas doesn't have much of a chance against their Su copies but IAF won't be buying anymore of the MkIs than the 40 ordered already.But the MkII with higher thrust engines (already decided),AESA radars (Uttam AESA,should be ready by the time the MkII gets ready for induction),MAWS (already developed),OBOGS (already developed),IFR probes,IRST,HMDS (TopSight 1 maybe ) - Python 5 combo and active solid state multi spectral jammers will be a different beast altogether and when supported by ground based air defence network,AWACS and heavy fighters can cause severe damage any PLAAF strike formation that intrudes Indian air space,(if at all they do so,as they can target objectives with long range PGMs from the safety of their air space).What I'm saying here is that,do not think of it as a stand alone system that will be sent to hunt down PLAAF fighters but as merely a part of a bigger and more complex and vast system,comprising ground air defence,other fighters and AWACS - all networked together and acting as a huge 'net' to entangle and eventually blunt the PLAAF offensives by bogging them down.In other words,we need the Tejas,the MkII to be precise,to make up the numbers.
I mean soon our Air Force will have to replace atleast 350 Mig 21s and 27s and we can not make up for it with just 126 Rafales,especially at the hopping cost of 30 Billion USDs!!If we are to spend that much amount of money,then why not just wait a few more years and increase the order book of the FGFA then??!!Why waste so much money on an essentially previous generation fighter,when we are to get a next generation beast,which will be a head and shoulder above in virtually every category there, in just 5-6 years??!!

I wish I could congratulate you on a well-thought-through train of logic. I can't.

In this net that you propose to create, to entangle and eventually blunt the PLAAF offensive, what do you think the MiG 21 could have done? What do you think the MiG 27 could have done? Are you at all aware of the vastly different roles that the two types had been designed for, or are these just names to scatter around?

Please explain what precisely a short-range light-weight fighter, essentially an interceptor with a limited range, at the opposite with limited armament could have done against Su30 type aircraft. Please do help me to understand why a variable-geometry ground attack fighter would have accomplished against troops well-protected by anti-aircraft missiles of the latest sort at a higher elevation than the ground attack plane's take-off airfield.

Is it your contention that making a thick soup of aircraft in the sky would dishearten the PLAAF and that they would then head sadly back to their bases to run their aircraft into the ground? Making up the numbers in this situation seems quite silly to me, but no doubt you have convincing arguments to explain why this should be a blow from which the opponent would not recover.

 

[Omega007]

I wish I could congratulate you on a well-thought-through train of logic. I can't.

I do not want anyone's congratulations.I just want my fellow debaters to speak freely and to tell me on my face that they think I've been wrong on so and so points.So it's me who should thank you a ton for delivering the same.

In this net that you propose to create, to entangle and eventually blunt the PLAAF offensive, what do you think the MiG 21 could have done?

Not much,in fact I would go as far as to say they would have become nothing other than road kills if faced by something as strong as the PLAAF,given its inability to mount a large enough radar antenna and latest avionics and self protection suits due to its very limited (non existent would probably be a better expression) space in its air frame.But same is not true with Tejas,since it was designed from day one with keeping those upgrades in mind.

What do you think the MiG 27 could have done?

You mean in an aerial warfare??Against PLAAF J10Bs and J 11s??Not a fuckking damn thing!!Again,more road kills.

Are you at all aware of the vastly different roles that the two types had been designed for,

Sure I am.The 21 is a pure interceptor which was designed with shorter delta wings so as to make them able to rise up fast like a rocket and engage the high altitude recon aircraft and strategic bombers,quickly launch their missiles and then turn tails.
The 27 on the other hand was designed as a pure CAS air craft,with the pilot housed into an armored 'tub' and wasn't fitted with any radars.So basically they wouldn't have made any contribution to the IAF's interception missions against intruding PLAAF formations.

or are these just names to scatter around?

Come one sir,I may be an ignorant fool but I ain't that big of a effing ignorant fool!!

Please explain what precisely a short-range light-weight fighter, essentially an interceptor with a limited range, at the opposite with limited armament could have done against Su30 type aircraft.

First of all,I don't believe LCA to be an interceptor,rather it's a light MRCA,with interception being one of its intended roles but not the only one!!It can definitely perform in other roles like CAS and limited air dominance missions(if fitted with all those upgrades I mentioned in my earlier comment) on a local theater.
And coming to your other point,as to what this tiny thing can do against a giant like the Su 30,well,if they are supported by other heavy fighters and ground based air defence systems,then I would say a lot!!Because then the PLAAF elements will have to fight all of them at once,which will hopefully exhaust them and eventually blunt their attacks.And besides,due to the altitude of the PLAAF bases in the TAR,the PLAAF planes can only take off with only about 60-65% of their normal payload,which also negates their advantage to a certain degree.

But yes,if the LCAs are to face the PLAAF J 11s alone,with no AWACS or ground support,then I don't think the former can hold their own for long.

Please do help me to understand why a variable-geometry ground attack fighter would have accomplished against troops well-protected by anti-aircraft missiles of the latest sort at a higher elevation than the ground attack plane's take-off airfield.

Nothing much.But then again,I doubt whether a detachment of Dassault Rafales with all their technological edge would have fared much better against such an well-armed adversary!!And that's the reason I said we would be better off to use the resources to acquire more VLO fighters like FGFA,which will have better chances of surviving against the same.

Is it your contention that making a thick soup of aircraft in the sky would dishearten the PLAAF and that they would then head sadly back to their bases to run their aircraft into the ground?

Yes and not.Yes to the notion,that IAF should built up a sizable force of Tejas MkIIs and upgraded SU 30MKIs along with a setting up a dense network of advanced air defence missiles and guns of different ranges and calibers.
But will it be enough to make the PLAAF to "head sadly back to their bases to run their aircraft into the ground" - FUCKK NO!!But at least it will make this whole thing too god damn costly an affair to them!!And that's all we can hope for the time being.

Making up the numbers in this situation seems quite silly to me,

In my opinion,the number of fighters would be of as much importance as would be the numbers of SAMs deployed on the ground!!Cause if not properly backed by friendly fighters,no ground based air defence network,no matter how much dense or advanced,can not last for long, against an enemy as numerous and as strong and advanced as the PLAAF.But I would like to hear your analysis on this,so can you kindly amplify your statement a bit further??It would be really great to hear your thoughts of how to counter the PLAAF threat,which is a very serious threat given the odds right now.

but no doubt you have convincing arguments to explain why this should be a blow from which the opponent would not recover.

Apnader thekei shikh6i Sir ji!!

 

[Mirza Jatt]

Exactly.But if we are to believe the words of Mr Sourav Jha,(although I'm still skeptical about it) that IAF is planning to induct upto 400 Tejas variants,then it won't be too far fetched to say that lately IAF is been thinking the exact thing - that it needs to take a combined interceptor - ground air defence aproach to try and overwhelm and ultimately beat back the PLAAF strike sorties.

400 tejas (even if I believe hi for a minute), will be a bad idea. Tejas would not give us the qualitative advantage against either Pakistan or China. and we also need to calculate the time and money that goes into inducting 400 aircrafts. If thats what happens then its better to look for more su 30s and FGFAs than that unnecessarily high number of Tejas.

 

[Omega007]

400 tejas (even if I believe hi for a minute), will be a bad idea. Tejas would not give us the qualitative advantage against either Pakistan or China. and we also need to calculate the time and money that goes into inducting 400 aircrafts. If thats what happens then its better to look for more su 30s and FGFAs than that unnecessarily high number of Tejas.

That's why I said I remained skeptical to that claim of his.The number of Tejas MkII should capped at 10 squadrons or 200 fighters to replace the Mig 21s.The Mig 27s should be replaced with additional numbers of Su 30MKIs or preferably more FGFAs if possible.

 

[sankar]

400 tejas (even if I believe hi for a minute), will be a bad idea. Tejas would not give us the qualitative advantage against either Pakistan or China. and we also need to calculate the time and money that goes into inducting 400 aircrafts. If thats what happens then its better to look for more su 30s and FGFAs than that unnecessarily high number of Tejas.

Don't worry Mirza. India is trying to acquire the in multiple platforms/coutries simultaneously (includes MKI). Suddenly India will have strong new 400 multiple variant aircrafts will be commissioned. All with AESA 4th Gen.

Apart from that India is looking reliable 5 gen Aircrafts. By 2017 end, you'll see strong India on Path.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I wish I could congratulate you on a well-thought-through train of logic. I can't.

I do not want anyone's congratulations.I just want my fellow debaters to speak freely and to tell me on my face that they think I've been wrong on so and so points.So it's me who should thank you a ton for delivering the same.
Source: India undertaking major rejig of fighter induction to meet threats from Pak, China | Page 3

Pretty sneaky of you. But yes, the soft answer that turneth away wrath does work, I have to admit.

In this net that you propose to create, to entangle and eventually blunt the PLAAF offensive, what do you think the MiG 21 could have done?

Not much,in fact I would go as far as to say they would have become nothing other than road kills if faced by something as strong as the PLAAF,given its inability to mount a large enough radar antenna and latest avionics and self protection suits due to its very limited (non existent would probably be a better expression) space in its air frame.But same is not true with Tejas,since it was designed from day one with keeping those upgrades in mind.

Source: India undertaking major rejig of fighter induction to meet threats from Pak, China | Page 3

But why on earth did you mention the use of the MiG 21, in that case?

 

[Mirza Jatt]

That's why I said I remained skeptical to that claim of his.The number of Tejas MkII should capped at 10 squadrons or 200 fighters to replace the Mig 21s.The Mig 27s should be replaced with additional numbers of Su 30MKIs or preferably more FGFAs if possible.

True that.. I have always maintained we'll need more MKIs for countering PLAAF. MMRCA gave a good hope of having a variety of aircrafts while FGFAs develop, but in the process we have lost a lot of time.

Don't worry Mirza. India is trying to acquire the in multiple platforms/coutries simultaneously (includes MKI). Suddenly India will have strong new 400 multiple variant aircrafts will be commissioned. All with AESA 4th Gen.

Apart from that India is looking reliable 5 gen Aircrafts. By 2017 end, you'll see strong India on Path.

yes its evident from the confused shopping spree India is in right now. I somehow think it could have been more streamlined though. I think 2017 is too optimistic my friend.

 

[Omega007]

True that.. I have always maintained we'll need more MKIs for countering PLAAF. MMRCA gave a good hope of having a variety of aircrafts while FGFAs develop, but in the process we have lost a lot of time.

Who knows,perhaps it's a blessing in disguise.I mean why should we spent a hopping 30 billion USD on a souped up fourth generation aircraft design,when we are already in line for getting a next generation one??Why not just use that money to order additional MKIs and (FGFAs when made available)??

 

[Joe Shearer]

What do you think the MiG 27 could have done?

You mean in an aerial warfare??Against PLAAF J10Bs and J 11s??Not a fuckking damn thing!!Again,more road kills.

Source: India undertaking major rejig of fighter induction to meet threats from Pak, China | Page 3

Then why, why, why for pity's sake, did you mention it?

 

[Omega007]

yes its evident from the confused shopping spree India is in right now. I somehow think it could have been more streamlined though.

The same thing happened in the 80s,when we IAF bought (quite foolishly) 3 different types of aircraft for different roles in great numbers (Mig 23 for interception,Mig 27 for CAS and Mig 29 for air superiority),there by complicating the logistical issues to a great margin,which in turn shot up the maintenance cost ,where as simply ordering more Mirages would have sufficed!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Are you at all aware of the vastly different roles that the two types had been designed for,

Sure I am.The 21 is a pure interceptor which was designed with shorter delta wings so as to make them able to rise up fast like a rocket and engage the high altitude recon aircraft and strategic bombers,quickly launch their missiles and then turn tails.
The 27 on the other hand was designed as a pure CAS air craft,with the pilot housed into an armored 'tub' and wasn't fitted with any radars.So basically they wouldn't have made any contribution to the IAF's interception missions against intruding PLAAF formations.

↑

or are these just names to scatter around?

Come one sir,I may be an ignorant fool but I ain't that big of a effing ignorant fool!!

Source: India undertaking major rejig of fighter induction to meet threats from Pak, China | Page 3

<sigh>
I suppose there's no point in asking the obvious question.