What's new

India Today = Late Qing China

FairAndUnbiased

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
Messages
10,184
Reaction score
-1
Country
China
Location
United States
Following the Opium Wars against Britain and France and then the Taiping Rebellion, the Qing Dynasty undertook the Self Strengthening Movement (自强运动)to modernize China's military and economy in the model of the west, while preserving the essential nature of the Chinese imperial system. This lasted from 1865 to 1895.

In 1862, Prince Gong proposed importing western learning, industrial products and weapons to China while taking no political reforms. He made reformers like Li Hongzhang leaders. He brought in German and British advisors. During the Self Strengthening Movement years, it looked as if the dynasty would not only survive, but thrive as a major power in the industial era.

This belief was not limited to the emperor or the Qing government. Many Western governments believed that China was reviving itself. Despite going to war with China British Empire allied with the Qing Dynasty against Russia and Japan. In 1894 on the eve of the first Sino-Japanese War, British advisor William Lang suggested that the Beiyang Fleet was the greatest naval force in Asia, and that "Japan must be crushed". Why was there any doubt? The Beiyang Fleet was made from the best German and British steel battleships with latest electrical, armor and large 12 inch guns.

However, all this will be futile. In 1895, Imperial Japan crushed the Beiyang Fleet. Corruption, opium and arrogance destroyed the fleet long before it steamed out to meet the Japanese.

---------

Today, India is in an even worse situation.

Just like the Qing Dynasty, India believes in modernization without cultural or political reform. It puts wholesale stock in the opinions, ideas and technologies of foreigners.

India does not have the same ability of the Qing Dynasty to maintain its own armed forces. Qing Dynasty had Jiangnan Shipyard and Fuzhou Shipyard to maintain its fleets. They had Hanyang Arsenal to arm soldiers with rifles and cannons. Today, India does not have its own aerospace or naval industry capable of maintaining its air and naval forces. It even has to import AK rifles - even the Qing Dynasty did not have to import rifles. They were capable of copying Winchesters.

India, just like the Qing Dynasty, is addicted to western opium - ideology and technology. It cannot ween itself off these due to institutional dependence. Just like opium, excessive ideology can make someone delusional. Just look at how many Indians think that 'democracy' is a magic thing that will make them bulletproof just like the Boxer rebellion.

Unfortunately, India today is the sick man of Asia.

India is lucky that China is not even 1% as aggressive as Imperial Japan or the British Empire. Otherwise it would be humiliated again. However, even a panda can get aggressive when the elephant keeps poking it and taking its bamboo.
 
.
Please continue to indulge yourself, abiding in your fantasy world constructed by CCP propaganda. Another great leap forward is long due. Open any netural publication or news website to see who is being humiliated, openly challenged and dominated, and who is crying for peace.

882161-chinese-pla-pic.gif


Chinese or Indian, all soldiers deserve respect, honor and recognition for their sacrifices for their beloved cause. May the many unrecognized dead RIP.
 
. .
Please continue to indulge yourself, abiding in your fantasy world constructed by CCP propaganda. Another great leap forward is long due. Open any netural publication or news website to see who is being humiliated, openly challenged and dominated, and who is crying for peace.

882161-chinese-pla-pic.gif


Chinese or Indian, all soldiers deserve respect, honor and recognition for their sacrifices for their beloved cause. May the many unrecognized dead RIP.

陈祥榕, the name on the gravestone, is indeed a CPC member that died.

But he died in 1934.


It is a photoshop.
 
.
陈祥榕, the name on the gravestone, is indeed a CPC member that died.

But he died in 1934.


It is a photoshop.
The desperation of the Indians to prove a Chinese soldier died at Galwan is near breaking point ... and I don't blame them. After all, if my country suffered 22 to 50 soldiers killed and 60+ captured, I too would want to see deaths on the enemy side. Unfortunately for the Indians, this has just not been the case. :cry::cry::cry:
 
.
The desperation of the Indians to prove a Chinese soldier died at Galwan is near breaking point ... and I don't blame them. After all, if my country suffered 22 to 50 soldiers killed and 60+ captured, I too would want to see deaths on the enemy side. Unfortunately for the Indians, this has just not been the case. :cry::cry::cry:

This is just like the Qing Dynasty saying how the Beiyang Fleet will crush Japan.
 
.
This is just like the Qing Dynasty saying how the Beiyang Fleet will crush Japan.
The Qing comparison is not very valid though ... the Beiyang fleet had many ships of higher quality and capability than the Japanese. Had the Qing Court not been insanely corrupt and had the navy been better managed, a defeat of the Japanese could have happened. The Indians OTOH have no qualitative advantage over the Chinese in any area whatsoever. When we talk about Chinese vs Indian military equipment, we always talk about how behind in India is.
 
.
The Qing comparison is not very valid though ... the Beiyang fleet had many ships of higher quality and capability than the Japanese. Had the Qing Court not been insanely corrupt and had the navy been better managed, a defeat of the Japanese could have happened. The Indians have no qualitative advantage over the Chinese in literally any area whatsoever. When we talk about Chinese vs Indian military equipment, we always talk about how behind in India is.

Hence my analysis of why India is not even as strong as Late Qing China.

In terms of industrial strength, India does not even have the capability that Qing Dynasty had with the Beiyang Fleet, Jiangnan Shipyard and Hanyang Arsenal.

There were guns from Hanyang Arsenal in use even in the 1980's such as the Chiang Kai Shek rifle. Meanwhile India has to import AKs from Russia.
 
.
Personally I think India today is much stronger and vital than late Qing. The India elites are much wiser and open minded than late Qing elites.

We need to evaluate our rival right, otherwise it will cost us an arm and leg.
 
.
The desperation of the Indians to prove a Chinese soldier died at Galwan is near breaking point ... and I don't blame them. After all, if my country suffered 22 to 50 soldiers killed and 60+ captured, I too would want to see deaths on the enemy side. Unfortunately for the Indians, this has just not been the case. :cry::cry::cry:

Thank Heavens we have your eye-witness report to illuminate the situation.
 
.
Personally I think India today is much stronger and vital than late Qing. The India elites are much wiser and open minded than late Qing elites.

We need to evaluate our rival right, otherwise it will cost us an arm and leg.

Late Qing had Beiyang Fleet, which was built in Britain and Germany, and which was considered far more advanced than the Japanese fleet. Late Qing had Hanyang Arsenal and Jiangnan Shipyard.

India does not even have these advantages; nothing they have is superior to what the PLA has. They are more addicted to ideological opium than Qing Dynasty was addicted to physical opium.
 
.
Personally I think India today is much stronger and vital than late Qing. The India elites are much wiser and open minded than late Qing elites.

We need to evaluate our rival right, otherwise it will cost us an arm and leg.
No one in the PLA underestimates the Indians. In 1962, Mao asked PLA chief of staff Luo Ruiqing if he was underestimating the Indians in his operations planning and he replied with an emphatic no ... the rest is history. A couple weeks ago, I watched a video by the former deputy commander of the Nanjing Military Command analyzing the Indian forward placements in Ladakh, and he too specifically said that the Indians should not be underestimated. Having said though, there is very little hope for the Indian military and everyone knows this. They have severe ammunition shortages, import all major weapons systems, and have virtually zero industry to create their own weapons or even produce spares for imported ones. What that means is whatever India starts with is going to be the most it will have in wartime. Contrary to what many say, war is most often won on logistics and industrial strength rather than overall strategy. And I think it is a valid point to question the Indian Army's professionalism; the Galwan incident in all seriousness was an extremely bad event for them. It must have therefore been a relief to the PLA and PA that the Indian mountain troops were not the "elite" they had been warned about earlier.
 
.
Personally I think India today is much stronger and vital than late Qing. The India elites are much wiser and open minded than late Qing elites.

We need to evaluate our rival right, otherwise it will cost us an arm and leg.

Please concentrate on PUBG. As long as there are elements who forget that India was a major armoury during the Second World War, and diverted its resources elsewhere after that war, it is a happy situation. We will continue to get fatuous posts that are the equivalent of whistling past a graveyard.
 
.
Having said though, there is very little hope for the Indian military and everyone knows this. They have severe ammunition shortages, import all major weapons systems, and have virtually zero industry to create their own weapons or even produce spares for imported ones. What that means is whatever India starts with is going to be the most it will have in wartime. Contrary to what many say, war is most often won on logistics and industrial strength rather than overall strategy.

So much for the opinion of the former deputy commander of the Nanjing Military Command.

Obviously, there are some Chinese members who continue to believe that war is too important to be left to the generals. Bless their hearts.
 
.
So much for the opinion of the former deputy commander of the Nanjing Military Command.

Obviously, there are some Chinese members who continue to believe that war is too important to be left to the generals. Bless their hearts.
We are all armchair generals after all correct? Let's let the real military commanders on both sides form their actual plans ... for us, the only task is to speculate :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom