India To Purchase Two More Israeli Surveillance Aircraft

[Zarvan]

India’s Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) on Tuesday cleared the purchase of two more surveillance aircraft from Israel at a cost of INR 7,500 crore (USD 1.1 billion).

The CCS chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi cleared the proposal for two Phalcon Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) under a tripartite agreement with Israel and Russia, The Hindu reported Thursday.

The AWACS are advanced radars mounted on an aircraft to give 360 degree coverage to detect incoming aircraft and missiles at long ranges.

India had procured three Phalcon AWACS, Israeli radars mounted on Russian IL-76 transport aircraft, in 2003 at cost of $1 billion.

Modi is expected to visit Israel later this year, the first by any Indian prime minister.

According to a report by HIS Jane's 380 website, India is expected to procure Israeli military equipment worth an estimated $3 billion ahead of the visit.

In addition to the AWACS, it is due to procure four supplementary Rafael/IAI radar-equipped aerostats for low-level air and sea surveillance by the Indian Air Force, Haaretz reported.

The CCS, the federal government's primary body on defense and security matters, is also expected to approve a joint development project by IAI/Rafael and India's state-run Defense Research and Development Organization for medium-range surface-to-air missiles for the Indian Army.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15...re_Israeli_Surveillance_Aircraft#.Vtm7ZyNRXqB

 

[$@rJen]

3 billion for just 2 AWACS or the costs includes 4 Aerostats Radars??

 

[Abingdonboy]

3 billion for just 2 AWACS or the costs includes 4 Aerostats Radars??

$1.1 billion for 2 AWACS, the $3BN figure is for ALL Indian orders from Israel for 2016-17.

The CCS, the federal government's primary body on defense and security matters, is also expected to approve a joint development project by IAI/Rafael and India's state-run Defense Research and Development Organization for medium-range surface-to-air missiles for the Indian Army.

@PARIKRAMA @ni8mare @anant_s is this the land based BARAK-8 for the IA/IAF that is being talked about?

 

[anant_s]

$1.1 billion for 2 AWACS,

@Abingdonboy any idea on the radar package for this AWACS deal. Is ELTA EL/W 2090 radar again used?

 

[kaykay]

I have heard these two will be improved version of first 3.

 

[mkb95]

$1.1 billion for 2 AWACS, the $3BN figure is for ALL Indian orders from Israel for 2016-17.

article says we bought 3 system for $1bn now $1.1bn for two systems.is it bcos of inflation or are these improved over the last ones.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

land based BARAK-8 for the IA/IAF that is being talked about?

Yes Its about Land based Barak 8... The news is very positive my friend.. Bcz Israel has been doing some good work progress in the land based Barak 8 system over last 6-8 months..

Let me post here some solid developments

On 29.11.2015, an article in Globes Israel Business Arena stated the following right after a naval Barak 8 successful test.

The successful trial focused on the system's capability in its naval application, and the interceptor missile launched at the target was simulating a deep-sea target. At the same time, IAI is also testing land-based applications of the same system. The radar and command and control systems stationed on land also successfully identified and monitored the target, and calculated its trajectory, but did not launch an interceptor missile at it. The Barak 8's interceptor range is 70 kilometers, making it capable of answering a wide variety of threats, including missiles like the Yakhont, which the IDF believes is part of Hezbollah's arsenal and which threaten Israel's ports, IDF ships, merchant vessels, and Mediterranean natural gas facilities.

According to professional sources involved in the missile's development program, the new defense system is also capable of providing a solution for surface-to-surface missiles and accurate rockets possessed by the Hezbollah Shi'ite terrorist organization that threaten infrastructure facilities in Israel and essential IDF bases all over Israel. Representatives of DRDO, a partner in the venture from the outset, also participated in the recent trial. The Indian army is already arming itself with these missiles and the accompanying systems under a huge $2 billion deal previously signed by the Indian Ministry of Defense with IAI.

Source: http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-iai-sees-billions-of-dollars-in-barak-missile-orders-1001084577

@Abingdonboy - There is your confirmation.. and range is 70 Km

Interestingly, IAI also updated their website with a land version data specs and scenario

Land based, short to long range, point & area defense system

Totally integrated and networked system

• From short to long ranges- low to high altitude targets
• Missile vertical launch, 360 degrees all weather operation
• Multiple simultaneous engagements in severe saturation scenarios
• Advanced two way data link, optimizing missiles and batteries coordination

http://www.iai.co.il/2013/36511-45489-en/SystemMissileandSpace_Divisions.aspx

and the marketing brochure

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/0/40420.pdf

Also @Abingdonboy Notice in the SIPRI SS pasted below and look for comments 2nd line MRSAM program as of 2009,,, notice the word land based Barak 8 SAM systems and associated cost of $1.4 Bn paid.. Look at the missile numbers - 1500 approx.. and 18 systems - 8 naval , 2 spyder (2 LLQRM) and 8 army land based. Subsequently 4 more naval versions were signed on 2013 for Project 15B.

In past we have procured 4 elta 2083 aerostat radars in 2008.

@anant_s
The original 2 AWACS had Elta 2075.. See here

Source: SIPRI Register

Now in all probability its 2090 which is a further development of 2075. As you see the original 2075 was approx $400 Mn each in cost all inclusive with the jet.

Now all inclusive its USD 550 Mn implying the package must have got upgraded.

Even Prasun K Sengupta also says about 2090 only.. See here:
Following a seven-year wait, India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) will later this month sign a procurement contract with Russia’s Rosoboronexport State Corp and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) for two A-50EI PHALCON AEW & CS (using the IL-476-90 airframe), with each being fitted with the IAI- supplied/ installed/ integrated ELW-2090 mission avionics suite for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/03/two-more-50ei-phalcon-aew-cs-for-iaf.html



About 2090 AEWC as per IAI
ELW-2090 - AEW&C
ELW-2090 - Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C)

General

• The ELW-2090 is lAI-ELTA's third generation of Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) systems, installed on an IL-76 heavy military transport aircraft.
• The ELW-2090 excels in wide area persistent air and ground surveillance.
• The ELW-2090 employs a powerful command, control & communication system to integrate the data of the onboard sensors; radar, IFF, ESM/ELINT, CSM/COMINT with multiple broadband datalinks.
• The ELW-2090 features an airborne command & control and network centric warfare operations post.

Features:

• IL-76 Aircraft
  Long range, large cabin, 4-engine turbojet air-lifter. Extensive cabin space for the operator crew and a comfortable crew rest area for long endurance missions.
  Air-refueled for extending mission endurance.
  
• Radar
  Active Electronic Steering Array (AESA), L-Band radar with 360° coverage. Accurate 3-D tracks, low false alarm rate, flexible revisit time, ECCM and programmable search and track regimes.
  
• IFF
  Active Electronic Steering Array (AESA) embedded in the radar array, 360° coverage, long range, high accuracy.
  
• ESM/ELINT & CSM/COMINT
  Sophisticated signal intelligence capabilities, high probability of signal interception and high bearing accuracy.
  
• Self-Protection Suite
  360° coverage of passive radar warning receiver and active missile approach warning system. Programmable chaff & flares countermeasures.
  
• Operator stations
  11 flexible, interchangeable multipurpose, 24" Windows-based workstations, efficient control of all sensors, comprehensive Command & Control capabilities.
  
• Communication Suite
  Interoperability with Air Force, Navy and Ground Forces. HF and V/UHF Radios, SATCOM, VOIP, Secure Voice, Integrated Intercom and Secure LOS datalink.

Source: http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34480-41070-en/Groups_ELTA_EltaNumbers_Products.aspx

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/2/41412.pdf

@MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @SpArK @DavidSling @500

 

[Abingdonboy]

article says we bought 3 system for $1bn now $1.1bn for two systems.is it bcos of inflation or are these improved over the last ones.

Infaltion will account for a lot of the increased price- remember that the first Phalcons were ordered 8 years ago. Addtionally the A-50 being delivered are improved versions with higher performance.

@PARIKRAMA the IAF's 3 Phalcons in service are all ELW-2090 also.


+ Good to see the IA upgrading it's AD capabilties, when do you think the IAF will order their MR-SAM (BARAK-8) also? The BARAK-8ER is gonna be a game changer for sure .



++ this DRDO/IAI JV has been incredibly succesful and will serve all 3 services- you couldn't ask for more.

@Abingdonboy any idea on the radar package for this AWACS deal. Is ELTA EL/W 2090 radar again used?

yup.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

the IAF's 3 Phalcons in service are all ELW-2090 also.

True.. SIPRI missed it as 2090 is a further development case.. I wonder why SIPRI did nt correct it's database

 

[Abingdonboy]

True.. SIPRI missed it as 2090 is a further development case.. I wonder why SIPRI did nt correct it's database

This is the same SIPRI that inexplicably combines the budgets of the MHA and MoD and declares India's defence budget is 20-25% higher than it actually is.

 

[Armani]

Quoting one of Gessler's posts from other forums;

" Many people dismiss Barak-8's capability, citing it's low speed of Mach 2 as a disadvantage compared to contemporary SAMs in it's class like the existing MBDA Aster family, which have speeds of about Mach 4.

What these people don't realize is that LRSAM is a dual-pulse missile. The first pulse (boost motor) gives the
missile lift and time to adjust course & find it's target. The 2nd pulse kicks in later and drives the missiles to velocities of between Mach 5 to Mach 7.

Another aspect is the missile's g-stress tolerance in lateral acceleration that is upto 80g, which is incredible for a long-range radar-guided SAM of this size & weight. Comparable Aster has 12g. AB Missiles like THAAD are believed to max out at 60g. The small SPYDER missiles have a maximum of 76g.

Also, recent tests have shown that LRSAM has surpassed it's anticipated range parameters, clocking in upto 90km instead of previously estimated 70km. This entails that the Barak-8ER version (with an additional booster section like Aster-30) could have ranges in the region of ~150km.

LRSAM has been a successful project. A bright idea converted into a practical system, a symbol of what the states of India & Israel can achieve together. "

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Quoting one of Gessler's posts from other forums;

" Many people dismiss Barak-8's capability, citing it's low speed of Mach 2 as a disadvantage compared to contemporary SAMs in it's class like the existing MBDA Aster family, which have speeds of about Mach 4.

What these people don't realize is that LRSAM is a dual-pulse missile. The first pulse (boost motor) gives the
missile lift and time to adjust course & find it's target. The 2nd pulse kicks in later and drives the missiles to velocities of between Mach 5 to Mach 7.

Another aspect is the missile's g-stress tolerance in lateral acceleration that is upto 80g, which is incredible for a long-range radar-guided SAM of this size & weight. Comparable Aster has 12g. AB Missiles like THAAD are believed to max out at 60g. The small SPYDER missiles have a maximum of 76g.

Also, recent tests have shown that LRSAM has surpassed it's anticipated range parameters, clocking in upto 90km instead of previously estimated 70km. This entails that the Barak-8ER version (with an additional booster section like Aster-30) could have ranges in the region of ~150km.

LRSAM has been a successful project. A bright idea converted into a practical system, a symbol of what the states of India & Israel can achieve together. "

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

My friend,

I fully endorse and agree with Gessler's view.. In fact i will add a little bit more to it..

Back few months, i did post here an analysis based on speed and time of reaction. I had considered only the lower threshold of Mach 2 for easier understanding of time and efficacy of MFSTAR 2248 radar for Barak8 and 8 ER.

Here the first case
https://defence.pk/threads/lr-sam-successfully-tested-from-ins-kolkata.415570/page-4#post-8038684

Here is the second case where based on @ni8mare feedback,
https://defence.pk/threads/lr-sam-successfully-tested-from-ins-kolkata.415570/page-6#post-8039608


Before the publicly announced second stage speed of mach 5-7, i had written this back then

https://defence.pk/threads/lr-sam-successfully-tested-from-ins-kolkata.415570/page-6#post-8039935

This system Barak 8 and 8 ER possibly gives us a humongous advantage.. What will be interesting will be the FCR used in Land version. I believe if we can feed in from powerful radars in the network to auto detect and authorize Barak 8/8ER land version to engage specifically LO/VLO targets and low altitude terrain hugging profiles (an equivalent of sea skimming variant in land form), we have then possibly increased our interception capabilities for CMs and ARMs in a big way.

Now imagine a situation where barak 8/8ER land version coupled with S400/pantysir system. We know the ARM and CM may provide some threat to S400 Long ranged SAM specially the radars site.. So if Barak8/8ER land version in its area of coverage has those radar sites, it can very well give a medium to long range protection shield. On top for closed range protection you have Pantysir units anyways.

Thus a network case of web of missile shield can be worked out at multiple tier level.

I am betting that soon Barak 8 ER also will be further developed into a 4 canister form or a 2 canister form to add another stage and increase the length (if possible) or use a newer variant of fuel or possibly tweak its burnout to enhance range to further upwards of 200-250 km.. I see a potential of Barak 8 Extended Long Range Variant or ELR to come into existence with this 200-250 km range for both naval and land versions.

 

[ni8mare]

@PARIKRAMA @ni8mare @anant_s is this the land based BARAK-8 for the IA/IAF that is being talked about?

As already answered by PARIKRAMA......

++ this DRDO/IAI JV has been incredibly successful and will serve all 3 services- you couldn't ask for more.

very much true.........instead nos of different MRSAM ...................just one SAM for multiple threats in MRSAM dominion

Remember the discussion where is i was hoping same for SRSAM for tri service and spinoff for WVR AAM......compare to that we are incredibly successful in MRSAM now ......LRSAM in future

 

[Abingdonboy]

Quoting one of Gessler's posts from other forums;

" Many people dismiss Barak-8's capability, citing it's low speed of Mach 2 as a disadvantage compared to contemporary SAMs in it's class like the existing MBDA Aster family, which have speeds of about Mach 4.

What these people don't realize is that LRSAM is a dual-pulse missile. The first pulse (boost motor) gives the
missile lift and time to adjust course & find it's target. The 2nd pulse kicks in later and drives the missiles to velocities of between Mach 5 to Mach 7.

Another aspect is the missile's g-stress tolerance in lateral acceleration that is upto 80g, which is incredible for a long-range radar-guided SAM of this size & weight. Comparable Aster has 12g. AB Missiles like THAAD are believed to max out at 60g. The small SPYDER missiles have a maximum of 76g.

Also, recent tests have shown that LRSAM has surpassed it's anticipated range parameters, clocking in upto 90km instead of previously estimated 70km. This entails that the Barak-8ER version (with an additional booster section like Aster-30) could have ranges in the region of ~150km.

LRSAM has been a successful project. A bright idea converted into a practical system, a symbol of what the states of India & Israel can achieve together. "

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

I would wholeheartedly agree- I would take that enourmously impressive manoeuvrability over a marginal increase in speed any day. Thinking about the operational usage of these systems and they are almost always going to be used for interception where speed is rather irrelevent- that only becomes useful when you are chasing down the target but with the kind of advanced sensors these systems will be linked with that will almost never need to be the case. And because of the extreme capabilties of this system the kill rate is almost assured.

On top for closed range protection you have Pantysir units anyways.

Don't you think for Indian service and the customised package India will be getting it would make more sense to go for the SPYDER instead of the Pantysir in this role bro?

I am betting that soon Barak 8 ER also will be further developed into a 4 canister form or a 2 canister form to add another stage and increase the length (if possible) or use a newer variant of fuel or possibly tweak its burnout to enhance range to further upwards of 200-250 km.. I see a potential of Barak 8 Extended Long Range Variant or ELR to come into existence with this 200-250 km range for both naval and land versions.

very much true.........instead nos of different MRSAM ...................just one SAM for multiple threats in MRSAM dominion

Remember the discussion where is i was hoping same for SRSAM for tri service and spinoff for WVR AAM......compare to that we are incredibly successful in MRSAM now ......LRSAM in future

Very much agreed, the ability to have one system serving 2/3 different services is a huge plus. It's a shame the SPYDER system isn't an Indo-Israeli JV though because it could be great to have in far larger numbers with the IA and IAF. The Maitri will b euseful to have as it will be a JV and will be deployable with all three services which will be particuarly useful for the IN's smaller vessels (such as ASW corvettes).

I think the future should be:

QRSAM- Maitri (IAF, IA and IN)
SRSAM- SPYDER (IA and IAF) and Akash (IA and IAF)
MRSAM- BARAK-8 (IA, IAF and IN- designated LR-SAM in IN service)
LRSAM- BARAK-8ER (IA, IAF and IN)
VLRSAM*- BARAK-8NG (IA,IAF and IN- to be devloped hopefully)

BMD- S400 and Indian BMD

And that ladies and gentlemen, is one of the most comprehensive and advanced AD networks ever to be created.


* @PARIKRAMA remember what Rafael were able to do with the Derby to create the Derby-ER? I'm sure that there is scope to further refine and optimise the design for future performance enhancements, India is on the right track.

+ I'm just wondering where the VL-Astra and Akash MK.2 can fit into this picture? @ni8mare @Water Car Engineer @knight11

 

[Carlosa]

My friend,

I fully endorse and agree with Gessler's view.. In fact i will add a little bit more to it..

Back few months, i did post here an analysis based on speed and time of reaction. I had considered only the lower threshold of Mach 2 for easier understanding of time and efficacy of MFSTAR 2248 radar for Barak8 and 8 ER.

Here the first case
LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 4

Here is the second case where based on @ni8mare feedback,
LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 6


Before the publicly announced second stage speed of mach 5-7, i had written this back then

View attachment 296600 LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 6

This system Barak 8 and 8 ER possibly gives us a humongous advantage.. What will be interesting will be the FCR used in Land version. I believe if we can feed in from powerful radars in the network to auto detect and authorize Barak 8/8ER land version to engage specifically LO/VLO targets and low altitude terrain hugging profiles (an equivalent of sea skimming variant in land form), we have then possibly increased our interception capabilities for CMs and ARMs in a big way.

Now imagine a situation where barak 8/8ER land version coupled with S400/pantysir system. We know the ARM and CM may provide some threat to S400 Long ranged SAM specially the radars site.. So if Barak8/8ER land version in its area of coverage has those radar sites, it can very well give a medium to long range protection shield. On top for closed range protection you have Pantysir units anyways.

Thus a network case of web of missile shield can be worked out at multiple tier level.

I am betting that soon Barak 8 ER also will be further developed into a 4 canister form or a 2 canister form to add another stage and increase the length (if possible) or use a newer variant of fuel or possibly tweak its burnout to enhance range to further upwards of 200-250 km.. I see a potential of Barak 8 Extended Long Range Variant or ELR to come into existence with this 200-250 km range for both naval and land versions.

That's what I would call the Israeli S-300...........