India to challenge China more: Indian experts

[Time]

Opps! JF-17 - > J10 - > J20 - > with no own engine - > not one sales to 3rd party



What about quality? opps! its Secret!!!!

At least we have the guts to evaluate our products openly.

Hoping China has no proper engines will not change India's engine manufacturing ability.

And the engine problem you mentioned has been solved.

Now China has the ability of manufacturing good engines for 4th generation fighters and new engines for stealth fighters will be ready sooner than Russia or, uh, India. Russia's advantage in this area is almost no more whether or not admitted.

Military are powered by money.That's what has been proved by the US or Russia.

You know what? Russians or Western countries will not give out technologies without reason.

They are not afraid of exporting non-high-end technologies to weak countries which appeared not be able to innovate (or to say 'research') independently and will not likely to surpass them in the same area. A weak obedient country is a good country in their eyes.

So why not recruit them by giving out some non-important alms, to deal with some country which may become a real rival?

 

[faithfulguy]

Sorry, we do not straightaway go to production after making just a prototype and few trials. Chinese secrecy is a great way to hide the deficiencies.

How will others manufacture China's plane when China itself is dependent on Russia for engines?

As I said earlier, JF-17 is joint venture between China and Pakistan. Where as LCA is plane develop by India only with foregin parts and lots of foreign assistance.

How long has been on trials. I thought a prototype was created in the late 90s. I know that India will soon be deploying the plane soon. But the fact is that its taking forever to develop the plane. One could conclude that India is not getting sufficient foreign assistance or its too ambitious. But that is not the case.

 

[faithfulguy]

Well The FGFA part you are right upto a level...remember...PAKFA and FGFA are two different programmes. And Indian contribution is only in the FGFA and not the PAK-FA.

About LCA...it was not bad management on the whole. It was the over-cautiousness and low risk route taken. This was a valuable lesson learnt when the first prototype of the DRDO AEW&C crashed way back in the late nineties which almost shut down the total program.

Well about Pakistan manufacturing JF 17...read about the manufacture and upgrade of Jaguar aircrafts and the Manufacturing of Su 30 MKI. PAC has very few projects in hand and they take one at a time unlike HAL which has too many projects in hand.

P.S. Almost 8 scientists and test pilots died in that incident involving the DRDO AEW&C crash.

So it was the engineers' or the manager's fault or politicians' fault. Someone must be at fault when many people were killed. Also, it seems that there India is trying to rely on the gov to do all the research. This only work in a dictatorship like China but would never work in a democracy with a market economy. Many private Indian companies are starting to get into aviation but they are far far behind US or European companies. it will be a generation or two before India can catch up in aviation.

 

[gpit]

I beg to differ, Why cannot India challenge China? What is with China that India doesn't possess? ....Demographics?...Stability of economy?... Intent?...Economic growth rate?...Military?...Industry?...resources?...what does India doesn't possess?

May be the only thing that China has and India does not possess is communism

What a funny post again from an Indian!

You don’t have communism? How about your famous Maoists?

There are indeed a couple of things that you have but China doesn’t: You have the starvation that China doesn’t have; you have the illiteracy that China doesn’t have. These two things are typical Indian.

Back to topic.

Instead of challenging China, India should challenge itself first, in the areas of huger, illiteracy, etc. and thus demonstrate to China, the Chinese, as well as the world, that India’s system indeed is superior, not inferior as fact shows now.

In simple a language in case some of you are semi-illiterate: challege yourself to save your 2 million children a year first before attempt to challege anybody else.

 

[DesiGuy]

What a funny post again from an Indian!

You don’t have communism? How about your famous Maoists?

one question: who are you laughing at? on his post or on your?

 

[gpit]

Whether India would make a great nation or not only the future can tell; however, I can see clear signs of that.

As regarding poverty and affluence, I have seen it both. I am the first generation literate in my family; and I can vouch for the transformation India is going through and opportunities it present to the young generation of India

India, as a great country, has been completely screwed-up by your politicians conspired perhaps by some westerners.

In fact, everybody is studying the transformation of India, not just you.

India was much ahead of China even around 1950: you had higher GDP, 10 times more electricity, 3 times more cotton spindles, 3 times more railroads than what China had 2 years later. See one slide from http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~yqian/econ162/econ162 topic02s.pdf gives

Comparisons: China (1952) vs. India (1950)
China 1952 India 1950
GDP per capita ($) 50 60
Population (million) 573 358
Industrial output per capita
Coal (kg) 96 97
Steel (kg) 2 4
Electricity (kw) 0.005 0.04
Cotton spindles 0.01 0.03
Railroads (km, 1936) 20,746 72,000

Now you are lagging in nearly every field listed above, except your population. You can comfort yourself with hare-tortoise. But a fairytale is a fairytale. In general, hare is faster than tortoise. Swallow the truth.

India’s number 1 enemy is Indian elected politicians, not China. Challenge them first instead of China.

 

[ajtr]

India, as a great country, has been completely screwed-up by your politicians conspired perhaps by some westerners.
Now you are lagging in nearly every field listed above, except your population. You can comfort yourself with hare-tortoise. But a fairytale is a fairytale. In general, hare is faster than tortoise. Swallow the truth.

India’s number 1 enemy is Indian elected politicians, not China. Challenge them first instead of China.

Golden words...but people from india dont care.Its kinda indians are living in Stockholm syndrome that they support every scam every policies of of their politicians and GOI which are detrimental to the success of india.

 

[ajtr]

I beg to differ, Why cannot India challenge China? What is with China that India doesn't possess? ....Demographics?...Stability of economy?... Intent?...Economic growth rate?...Military?...Industry?...resources?...what does India doesn't possess?

May be the only thing that China has and India does not possess is communism

First try challenging pakistan bangaladesh then think about china.Delli door ast.

 

[DesiGuy]

First try challenging pakistan bangaladesh then think about china.Delli door ast.

finally i see you posted something that comes from your own brain. but guess what....that too lacks logical thinking.... and guess what...i am not surprised.

 

[gpit]

one question: who are you laughing at? on his post or on your?

Sorry, buddy. I'm laughing at his sheer lack of knowledge, blatant flawed logic, stubborn denial of facts, completely ignorant of history.

I’ve repeated my point of view in many posts: erecting China as India’s number 1 enemy is the single most fatal error of the Republic of India’s foreign policy since India’s independence.

India could have been a model country in Asia, could have been richer in life and better in education than China… my heart is heavy still, seeing India keep sliding down the self-destructive road of no return.

On the other side, democratic nature of India system needs constant pumping of patriotism, or more appropriately, jingoism. 1962 tragedy had fully demonstrated that: Nehru was very hesitating in forwarding into China, but his patriotic parliament members fanned up jingoism, called him traitors, very much like GW Bush’s either on our side or on our enemy’s side. Sad, indeed…

My conclusion is: India can challenge anybody but his closest north neighbor. Kautalya ( of Mauryan) doctrine (ie, my neighbor must be my enemy) of foreign policy is simply too obsolete, too devastating (to India) to apply.

And, India doesn't need hatred to unify, and to be strong.

 

[faithfulguy]

Hoping China has no proper engines will not change India's engine manufacturing ability.

And the engine problem you mentioned has been solved.

Now China has the ability of manufacturing good engines for 4th generation fighters and new engines for stealth fighters will be ready sooner than Russia or, uh, India. Russia's advantage in this area is almost no more whether or not admitted.

Military are powered by money.That's what has been proved by the US or Russia.

You know what? Russians or Western countries will not give out technologies without reason.

They are not afraid of exporting non-high-end technologies to weak countries which appeared not be able to innovate (or to say 'research') independently and will not likely to surpass them in the same area. A weak obedient country is a good country in their eyes.

So why not recruit them by giving out some non-important alms, to deal with some country which may become a real rival?

I rather agree with you that the reason Russia and the western countries would freely provide technology to India is that they know India does not have the capability to innovate beyond what is provided to India. History has proven that. On the other hand, China was able to innovate with what is provided to them. That is why the US regard China as a rival and given India in the current state, it will never be a rival to the US.

 

[ajtr]

Sorry, buddy. I'm laughing at his sheer lack of knowledge, blatant flawed logic, stubborn denial of facts, completely ignorant of history.

I’ve repeated my point of view in many posts: erecting China as India’s number 1 enemy is the single most fatal error of the Republic of India’s foreign policy since India’s independence.

India could have been a model country in Asia, could have been richer in life and better in education than China… my heart is heavy still, seeing India keep sliding down the self-destructive road of no return.

On the other side, democratic nature of India system needs constant pumping of patriotism, or more appropriately, jingoism. 1962 tragedy had fully demonstrated that: Nehru was very hesitating in forwarding into China, but his patriotic parliament members fanned up jingoism, called him traitors, very much like GW Bush’s either on our side or on our enemy’s side. Sad, indeed…

My conclusion is: India can challenge anybody but his closest north neighbor. Kautalya ( of Mauryan) doctrine (ie, my neighbor must be my enemy) of foreign policy is simply too obsolete, too devastating (to India) to apply.

And, India doesn't need hatred to unify, and to be strong.

The reason being that indians read doctored/distorted history books of NCERT in their school/Univ curriculum.where every blame of partition and 1962 is are made on Jinnah and china respectively.and if someone tries to give the correct perspective of it for example Jaswant singh's recent book on partition or those 30 controversial pages of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad(which where released only after 3 decades after his death) and thd Henderson- Bhagawat report on 1962 debacle(which is still held as secret under official secret acts) ,gets stifled due to fake show of imposed patriotism By GOI on its people.The real thing is that anything that goes against the ruling class is being called treason in india.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

So it was the engineers' or the manager's fault or politicians' fault. Someone must be at fault when many people were killed. Also, it seems that there India is trying to rely on the gov to do all the research. This only work in a dictatorship like China but would never work in a democracy with a market economy. Many private Indian companies are starting to get into aviation but they are far far behind US or European companies. it will be a generation or two before India can catch up in aviation.

Indian government was wary about how powerful the arms and weapons production companies in the west have grown up. But right now they dont have the choice but to atleast part with a share of manufacturing as the demand has grown too big. Just now they are allowed to manufacture weapons and still dont have the permission or any support from the government to fund it.

2 generations is an overkill as the decision lies solely in the hands of the government.

 

[J - 50]

Sorry, buddy. I'm laughing at his sheer lack of knowledge, blatant flawed logic, stubborn denial of facts, completely ignorant of history.

I’ve repeated my point of view in many posts: erecting China as India’s number 1 enemy is the single most fatal error of the Republic of India’s foreign policy since India’s independence.

India could have been a model country in Asia, could have been richer in life and better in education than China… my heart is heavy still, seeing India keep sliding down the self-destructive road of no return.

On the other side, democratic nature of India system needs constant pumping of patriotism, or more appropriately, jingoism. 1962 tragedy had fully demonstrated that: Nehru was very hesitating in forwarding into China, but his patriotic parliament members fanned up jingoism, called him traitors, very much like GW Bush’s either on our side or on our enemy’s side. Sad, indeed…

My conclusion is: India can challenge anybody but his closest north neighbor. Kautalya ( of Mauryan) doctrine (ie, my neighbor must be my enemy) of foreign policy is simply too obsolete, too devastating (to India) to apply.

And, India doesn't need hatred to unify, and to be strong.

its very funny .....

most chinese think about India .....

they must remember India started to reform in 1992 and they have started in 1978 so almost 1 decade of Gap ....

so if you compare china of 2000 to india of 2010 that would be a fair comparison on most benchmarks ,,,,

and when you will compare 2020 india to nowdays china that gap would have shortened ... from 10 years to 5-6 years on most human and tech. factors ...

now if most ppl think that india is not a fair comparison you should look what ur...
commie govt is doing...


investing in failed states to contain india...

even blocking terrotist org from banning in UN

not supporting india's bid to UNSC

giving new military techs to pakistan...

i think ur govt. disagrees...

 

[BigTree.CN]

About bold part. You do not consider a territory to belong to someone just because you favor him.

First, Chinese government has never openly stated that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. But we do favor Pakistan in this regard, I don't think there is any contradiction between the two.

Second, we can consider a territory to belong to someone just because we favor him. It is like all Indians are thinking South China Sea belongs to South East Asia countries because you favor them in this case, disregarding there are tons of proofs showing it belongs to China.

You have to have a basis for considering where Kashmir belongs, it cannot be because Pakistan is your friend. If you consider it is disputed, than Pakistan also has the disputed land.

Third, we are favoring Pakistan not only because India is an enemy of China and Pakistan is a friend of China, but also because we do have a basis for considering Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. Plus the friendship between China and Pakistan and the enmity between China and India, we are more entitled to treat India and Pakistan differently with regard to the Kashmir issue.

Chinese stance over Kashmir remains that it is disputed between you two, but it doesn't mean India deserves an special treatment we are giving to an old friend. You should feel lucky China doesn't openly stated Kashmir belongs to Pakistan.

In one word, nothing China is doing doesn't consist with our official stance.

Now if this logic is too difficult to comprehend I give up, I just cannot take logic based on beliefs and friendship. It has to be more grounded.

There is no logic in your argument, you were just feeling unfair after getting punished for your misdeed.

Also whatever you feel about Kashmir will not change a thing, you might be powerful but that does not mean you can influence everything. US is and was way more powerful than you are now, but could not do much.

We are doing this to favor an old friend and to maintain the truth that India does not deserve Kashmir, whether we can change a thing or not reallydoesn't matter.