India to Buy additional 39 Apache's

[amitkriit]

No, Air-Power (especially of the Brute kind) is again highly unsuited for these ops.
It will need intelligent and persistent operations by numerous small groups of "foot-sloggers".
TINA......There Is No Alternative to this method as the primary means of action.
Just as there is ABSOLUTELY NO ESCAPE for providing Governance in the affected areas; which is the root cause for the deep disaffection prevailing.

In the meanwhile; please to take time to ruminate on all the other points that I have made earlier. There is barely any scope for any "Cowboy Actions". Resorting to them will be disastrous.



Attack Helos cannot look through thick vegetation or forest cover. Conversely anybody well armed with HMGs or equivalent or (god forbid) MANPADS and easily camouflaged in the vegetation/topography will be able to swiftly alter the "balance of power".
Think about it!

When the UAVs were pressed into service, few experts were not in favour of it, the logic being "thick vegetation" but the plan paid off. In case of anti-naxal ops attack helicopters must be deployed in troops support role (close support, reinforcement and evacuation). Air Power is more effective in cases when the enemy assets/formations are concentrated in a particular area and not in cases of asymmetric warfare because the Air Power is more like the blunt side of the hammer (The US learned it the hard way in Iraq).

If the battle reaches a stage when we might have to face HMGs and MANPADs we must be very clear in our minds that the problem must no longer be treated as a "law and order" problem and in that case we better flatten the whole area without caring about who died on ground.

 

[Kompromat]

Not needed. In a Pak/Indo scenario, which probably may never happen, they won't play a great role. The air will be saturated with surface to air missiles of all varieties. They are most effective in an anti insurgent role.

On the contrary - Apaches are formidable anti armor and close air support platforms. LUH and LCH won't stand a chance against MANPADs. We cannot afford to be complacent in protecting our armor thrusts against Apache threat. A mix of netcentric vehicles with RBS-70 (World's best point defense weapon) and Anza/Stingers along with UAVs carrying TY-90 missiles and our own attack helos with AIM-9Lima/M would fix up this problem. We already have almost all of them at hand, we just need to pack them into a force integrated with these capabilities to meet an evolving threat.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

When the UAVs were pressed into service, few experts were not in favour of it, the logic being "thick vegetation" but the plan paid off. In case of anti-naxal ops attack helicopters must be deployed in troops support role (close support, reinforcement and evacuation). Air Power is more effective in cases when the enemy assets/formations are concentrated in a particular area and not in cases of asymmetric warfare because the Air Power is more like the blunt side of the hammer (The US learned it the hard way in Iraq).

If the battle reaches a stage when we might have to face HMGs and MANPADs we must be very clear in our minds that the problem must no longer be treated as a "law and order" problem and in that case we better flatten the whole area without caring about who died on ground.

You seem to be still approaching the problem "arse-wise". It still is a "Law and Order" problem born out of poor or no Governance in the affected Areas. While you like to think of it as India's version of the Viet Nam War, since you are suggesting measures that the American tried there viz. "flatten the whole area without caring who died on the ground".
The upshot of all that was that the Americans left while the Viet Cong survived.
Here we can't even leave the area, while the Naxals move, migrate and mutate all over the area in new pockets unceasingly. So all that you are putting on display through your post is either naivete or ignorance.
Just as you are superimposing Iraq on Chattisgarh, Jharkhand etc. for chrissakes !!!

 

[waz]

On the contrary, they are most effective in an anti-tank role, and as airborne artillery. They would be overkill (pun intended) for insurgents. Besides, India does not use airpower against insurgents, and that's unlikely to change. And even if we wanted helicopters for use against insurgents, we wouldn't get the most expensive one on the planet with the most sophisticated fire control radar out there. Any cheap helo with a cannon will do the job.

Make no mistake, in the armed forces these are going to our strike forces, and the mountain corps. They can decimate tanks and armoured and soft skinned vehicles en masse. If used properly, they will have an important role to play - they woun't be used to fly into a dense air defence network across the border, but they will be used to take care of an enemy armoured thrust, for example. Or to act as very mobile artillery in the mountains.

They have been effective against tanks no doubt about that, but that was with massive air superiority, and the the planes had gone in first to take care of threats. I'm surprised you won't use them against insurgents given the issues the Indian paramilitary forces have had with various outfits.

I understand that an armoured thrust will literally meet its end at the hands of the Apache, but anti-air units will be going with them and operate on the flanks, the same area that these helicopters will operate from which means a very hostile environment.

Anyway, it's a good buy for India no matter what role the machine will play.

On the contrary - Apaches are formidable anti armor and close air support platforms. LUH and LCH won't stand a chance against MANPADs. We cannot afford to be complacent in protecting our armor thrusts against Apache threat. A mix of netcentric vehicles with RBS-70 (World's best point defense weapon) and Anza/Stingers along with UAVs carrying TY-90 missiles and our own attack helos with AIM-9Lima/M would fix up this problem. We already have almost all of them at hand, we just need to pack them into a force integrated with these capabilities to meet an evolving threat.

No, sorry I should have explained myself more. Of course prepare and we have the weapons for that and I agree with the whole force integration concept. At the same time we should finalise our purchase of the T-129 which is a game changing machine as well.

 

[airmarshal]

Apaches are quite capable helicopters. Congrats.

I dont know why I never heard Pakistan negotiating with US for these. Did Pakistan ever show interest in these? If not then why not?

 

[janon]

Apaches are quite capable helicopters. Congrats.

I dont know why I never heard Pakistan negotiating with US for these. Did Pakistan ever show interest in these? If not then why not?

Too costly?

 

[Luftwaffe]

Apaches are quite capable helicopters. Congrats.

I dont know why I never heard Pakistan negotiating with US for these. Did Pakistan ever show interest in these? If not then why not?

Not for sales to Pakistan nor can Pakistan afford it, it costs 50m+ at this price Pakistan can purchase 2 AH-1F/G.

It is a fine marvelous machine a wise buy.

 

[airmarshal]

Not for sales to Pakistan nor can Pakistan afford it, it cost 50m+ at this price Pakistan can purchase 2 AH-1F/G.

50 million? Thats more than F-16D block 52+ ! wow!!!

 

[Kompromat]

Apaches are quite capable helicopters. Congrats.

I dont know why I never heard Pakistan negotiating with US for these. Did Pakistan ever show interest in these? If not then why not?

$25 Million apiece!

 

[Luftwaffe]

50 million? Thats more than F-16D block 52+ ! wow!!!

F-16 Block 52 is 65m+ you must be referring to US stocks F-16 Block 15/25/30/32 that have been sold for 10m for airframe only rest upgrades the price goes well above.

T-129 is close to 35m where as AH-1 twin engine is around 30m...IAF is buying 22 Apaches for 1.4m if we calculate its around 50-54m each people calculate carefully.

 

[janon]

50 million? Thats more than F-16D block 52+ ! wow!!!

The longbow radar itself costs a bomb. They can network to other helicopters, and even control UAVs. So a formation of Apaches networked with LCH can be a potent combo. In terms of battlefield awareness, the platform is truly next gen.

But yes, very expensive. India can only afford a handful of these, and will need the cheaper LCH in much larger numbers.

 

[airmarshal]

F-16 Block 52 is 65m+ you must be referring to US stocks F-16 Block 15/25/30/32 that have been sold for 10m for airframe only rest upgrades the price goes well above.

T-129 is close to 35m where as AH-1 twin engine is around 30m...IAF is buying 22 Apaches for 1.4m if we calculate its around 50-54m each people calculate carefully.

F-16D cost around $35 million. Anyway. I dont want to derail the thread. It also depends on customer too.

 

[Luftwaffe]

F-16D cost around $35 million. Anyway. I dont want to derail the thread. It also depends on customer too.

Ok just calculate Iraqi 3B 18 F-16s Block 52 or Pakistani 18 Block 52s for 3.1B, Now back to Topic.

 

[That Guy]

any source to support your claim

Pakistan is buying Mi-35s, haven't you been paying attention these past few weeks? The Russians lifted their arms embargo over Pakistan recently, and said they were planning on selling Pakistan attack helis.

finally deal is done for russian Attack Helo

The only ones that Pakistan really needs are Mi-35, and only for stopgap measures until it can afford to find a more suitable replacement for it's cobra gunships (hopefully with the T-129. which Turkey has been wanting to sell Pakistan).

 

[Screambowl]

Pakistan is buying Mi-35s, haven't you been paying attention these past few weeks? The Russians lifted their arms embargo over Pakistan recently, and said they were planning on selling Pakistan attack helis.

finally deal is done for russian Attack Helo

The only ones that Pakistan really needs are Mi-35, and only for stopgap measures until it can afford to find a more suitable replacement for it's cobra gunships (hopefully with the T-129. which Turkey has been wanting to sell Pakistan).

congratulations, now russia will drop India as strategic friend and even will make a deal with you for 126 Sukhois, and transfer sensitive technology to Pakistan also. They will also give Brahmos and satellite technology and their proton rocket technology. Start of new era between Russia and Pakistan. wow.