India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[cerberus]

India to wait another two years for French Rafale jets, says Manohar Parrikar

 

[sancho]

FM clearly mentioned that 36 planes will be built according to Indian standards

Which is wrong, since the PM did not ordered them from Dassault, but asked the French President to provide them from their orders as the PM himself said! So these 36 are already produced or under production and that according to French standards!
Only new orders that we sign with Dassault can be build according to our requirements and standards, that's why signing the MMRCA contract is the key, not this side issue.

 

[cerberus]

Which is wrong, since the PM did not ordered them from Dassault, but asked the French President to provide them from their orders as the PM himself said! So these 36 are already produced or under production and that according to French standards!
Only new orders that we sign with Dassault can be build according to our requirements and standards, that's why signing the MMRCA contract is the key, not this side issue.

You made the assumptions based on IANS
Rafale jet fighters: Why Dassault deal is not simply a win-lose situation for India - The Economic Times



The government has already announced the two new squadrons would be inducted into the IAF in two years. The India-France joint statement said the order for the 36 jets would be "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway"

How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it’s a winner - The Economic Times

@sancho So basically deal will Done better than with Dassault aviation

 

[sancho]

You made the assumptions based on IANS
Rafale jet fighters: Why Dassault deal is not simply a win-lose situation for India - The Economic Times



The government has already announced the two new squadrons would be inducted into the IAF in two years. The India-France joint statement said the order for the 36 jets would be "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway"


How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it’s a winner - The Economic Times

@sancho So basically deal will Done better than with Dassault aviation

Which again is wrong, since the DM only stated that they will be available within 2 years, but that depends on when the deal is signed and how many fighters the French government can provide. Check the Rafale thread, I already showed that the French order for 2015 till the end of 2017 is not sufficient to provide us 36 fighters as well as the fighters to Egypt, which also will at least partially diverted from French orders.
And the part about the "terms" being better, is aimed to the costs, since the French government can sell them at lower costs, than newly ordered Rafale from Dassault. They however can't provide a technically more capable Rafale, than what they have ordered and produced. IRST is not in production anymore and actually is dependent on the ToT package of the MMRCA ti start production again. HMS is not integrated yet and again, might only come as an add on, after the MMRCA is signed and depending on which helmet will be integrated. But both are not required from French forces, therefor are not part of the Rafale they can provide to other countries.

 

[Indo-guy]

You made the assumptions based on IANS
Rafale jet fighters: Why Dassault deal is not simply a win-lose situation for India - The Economic Times



The government has already announced the two new squadrons would be inducted into the IAF in two years. The India-France joint statement said the order for the 36 jets would be "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway"

How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it’s a winner - The Economic Times

@sancho So basically deal will Done better than with Dassault aviation

Sorry for just nosing in ...

But if MMRCA is not signed then why should Dassault take trouble of churning out Rafales with Indian specifications if there is no propsect of bigger order ?

How easy is it for dassault to accomodate India specific Rafale version ?

It would have been better if MMRCA would have been signed before making separate order ...

 

[cerberus]

Which again is wrong, since the DM only stated that they will be available within 2 years, but that depends on when the deal is signed and how many fighters the French government can provide. Check the Rafale thread, I already showed that the French order for 2015 till the end of 2017 is not sufficient to provide us 36 fighters as well as the fighters to Egypt, which also will at least partially diverted from French orders.
And the part about the "terms" being better, is aimed to the costs, since the French government can sell them at lower costs, than newly ordered Rafale from Dassault. They however can't provide a technically more capable Rafale, than what they have ordered and produced. IRST is not in production anymore and actually is dependent on the ToT package of the MMRCA ti start production again. HMS is not integrated yet and again, might only come as an add on, after the MMRCA is signed and depending on which helmet will be integrated. But both are not required from French forces, therefor are not part of the Rafale they can provide to other countries.

Well let wait and watch
Until deal will be signed

Unless official details of the deal will be out which only happens when deal is will be signed. We should wait by them
Since its very hyped saga we can't trust even journous

This MMRCA saga is very complicated and with new twist it's added it one step further.

 

[sancho]

It would have been better if MMRCA would have been signed before making separate order ...

Exactly, because the seperate order has no relevance if the MMRCA is not fixed, neither for the required numbers, nor for the required technical standards, the ToT or offset packages that we demanded. The whole point of the competition was, to get as much industrial benefits out of the deal as possible and a side deal with French government for their fighters doesn't provide that.

 

[cerberus]

Exactly, because the seperate order has no relevance if the MMRCA is not fixed, neither for the required numbers, nor for the required technical standards, the ToT or offset packages that we demanded. The whole point of the competition was, to get as much industrial benefits out of the deal as possible and a side deal with French government for their fighters doesn't provide that.

You said technical standard
Execept IRST and HMS what else will be difference

The options can be available for HMS what else will be its short comings ???

 

[Muhammad Omar]

How many Rafales is India Buying exactly..?? there is a NEWS of 36 and title says 60-63 ??? any confirm news??

Not a troll

 

[cerberus]

How many Rafales is India Buying exactly..?? there is a NEWS of 36 and title says 60-63 ??? any confirm news??

Not a troll

As of now 36 by GtoG mode in separate contract.
Which can be integrated span 2 to 3 year's

Rest MMRCA saga continues

 

[Muhammad Omar]

As of now 36 by GtoG mode in separate contract.
Which can be integrated span 2 to 3 year's

Rest MMRCA saga continues

Ok Thanks

 

[cerberus]

Sorry for just nosing in ...

But if MMRCA is not signed then why should Dassault take trouble of churning out Rafales with Indian specifications if there is no propsect of bigger order ?

How easy is it for dassault to accomodate India specific Rafale version ?

It would have been better if MMRCA would have been signed before making separate order ...

Don't ask me Dm is stated it in his statement to PTI
" While the order is meant to be delivered as soon as possible, terms and conditions of the deal - estimated at about $4.25 billion - have yet to be worked out, the minister said.
"It may take two to two-and-a-half years to get the first plane," Parrikar told reporters. "Fly-away means not tomorrow, it has to be designed as per India's need, plus there is a requirement of working out the price."

India to wait another two years for French Rafale jets, says Manohar Parrikar


Now im In puzzle whom to believe DM
Or Sancho
Although Sancho is technically right

 

[sancho]

You said technical standard
Execept IRST and HMS what else will be difference

The options can be available for HMS what else will be its short comings ???

IRST and HMS were base requirement of the MMRCA competition, but you can also take the Mirage upgrade as a hint to what IAF might go for on the Rafale. Litening targeting pods, which are far more capable than the current Damocles pod and offer commonality throughout the whole IAF and IN fleet. SPICE PGM kits, which IAF integrates to the M2K to replace older French bomb kits and that surely will find it's way to the Rafale too. Halloween said, that SATCOM is under integration now, possibly for the Indian order, not to mention that Indian forces don't use NATO com and data links, so these have to be custom made too.

IAF and IN have opted on the Topsight helmet for M2K and Mig 29s, via Samtel, the French forces prefered a helmet of Sagem initially and again according to halloweene Thales might aim to integrate the latest Scorpion helmet.

 

[cerberus]

IRST and HMS were base requirement of the MMRCA competition, but you can also take the Mirage upgrade as a hint to what IAF might go for on the Rafale. Litening targeting pods, which are far more capable than the current Damocles pod and offer commonality throughout the whole IAF and IN fleet. SPICE PGM kits, which IAF integrates to the M2K to replace older French bomb kits and that surely will find it's way to the Rafale too. Halloween said, that SATCOM is under integration now, possibly for the Indian order, not to mention that Indian forces don't use NATO com and data links, so these have to be custom made too.

IAF and IN have opted on the Topsight helmet for M2K and Mig 29s, via Samtel, the French forces prefered a helmet of Sagem initially and again according to halloweene Thales might aim to integrate the latest Scorpion helmet.

Hmm what about AESA it first aircraft with operationally available to IAF

Although meteor is not coming with this Tranche. MICA will be the main BVR then that too sad point

 

[sancho]

Now im In puzzle whom to believe DM
Or Sancho

Neither him nor me! Get as much infos from as many sources and get to you own conclusions. You won't find it that difficult to find official sources that Dassault produces 11 fighters a year and that they need 3 years to build a Rafale. Or that the F3+ was meant to be produced only till the end of 2017, followed by the new F3R standard. Check that and you know, that the DM's statement doesn't hold it's own without some changes (increased production rate or including fighters that will be produced in 2018).

Hmm what about AESA it first aircraft with operationally available to IAF

Although meteor is not coming with this Tranche. MICA will be the main BVR then that too sad point

Yes AESA will be available, but honestly not a game changer when you have the BARS radar in huge numbers in the fleet too. It's more modern tech wise than the PESA, but that's it. The lack of METEOR is just a short term problem and the MICA IR + SPECTRA / FSO combo is imo equally important, but we need HMS and IRST to get the most of the Rafale.