India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[Dash]

@Indian Patriot

please know something about french prod lines and I'm sure on the basis what I know they can produce 36 planes on 2 years. And mind you it's a FMS deal, means you can comitt what you can deliver and it's not a joke

 

[Manindra]

The irony.

May be for you

 

[Rau]

The FGFA production in no way going to start before 2022, and induction by 2025.

Thinking same...so, till then our force mostly be 4++ and 4 generation plane....

 

[migflug]

BREAKING NEWS : Just watched our defence Minister's latest response on rafale deal .

This is what he said and Surprise is there too ....

DM : We have purchased 36 Rafale is fly away conditions. And more Aircraft will be made in India for medium multi role purpose. It would be any fighters Rafale or other. I don't want to go into it. Since for the past 14 years from 2000 we haven't inducted any major Advanced aircraft. So we will looking at adding more Advanced jets . Rafale is 4+ generation aircraft (very capabcapable is what he ment)

We have well upgraded jets like Mig 29 mirages etc all are 3rd gen fighters .

Surprise statement on Tejas : He said our own Tejas light combat Multi role aircraft will go through final test flight next month. So within a month or two all issues will be sorted out . And major induction process will begin

Tejas to complete all certifications in 1/2 months . This is what he said ?

So even govt confused abt mmrca.wow

 

[MilSpec]

Can HAL manufacture MKI and other aircraft at the same time?

HAL manufactures MKI's, ovehauls Mig 27's and mig 21 bisons, ALH undercarriage and PSLV subsystems in Nasik division.
In the same time frame HAL Banglore complex manufactured Jaguar, ALH and AJT, and ovehauled Cheetah and Chetak,
Hope that answers your query

Before that.
HAL Nasik Division produced at one time around 30 Mig21 in a year, HAL nasik division also produced Mig21, Mig 23 CKD assm, and Mig27 at the same time.

HAL korput div produced R29, Adour, R25, simultaneously.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The FGFA production in no way going to start before 2022, and induction by 2025.

From what I can see today I think 2022 is the current deadline for FGFA to enter IAF service but this is open to change- it could be brought forward (if the DM comes good on his promise to "fast track" the FGFA deal- don't hold your breath).

Exactly, This increase in number will give breathing room even if delay in FGFA......about DM statement...I dont think its in his hands actually not in India's hands...its totally in Russia's R & D department which is are under financial crunch as well as technical hiccup....

You're right about that, the trouble is on the Russian end and I have a sinking feeling they are going to take India for a ride, if we thought Vikramditya was a saga we haven't seen anything yet...

 

[janon]

I am of the opinion that the Rafale is too expensive for us, but if we are buying them, let's buy them in large numbers, so that the cost of training, infra etc can be used more. Buying just 36 would be as stupid as can be. We made the same mistake with the mirage-2K, buying just 50 of them.

Buying one more squadron directly from France also makes sense, in view of the declining squadron strength.

 

[Indian Patriot]

Except there is no ToT issues here, no issues with setting up production and no delays in sourcing supplies from the OEM because the 36 are coming directly from the OEM! In Modi's statement he said the French offered very good terms for this sale of 36 which includes fast track production.


Dassault have already said they can ramp up production to 2.5 Rafales a month i.e. 30 Rafales a year and now they have three customers (four if you count the French Navy as separate tot eh French Air Force).

Firstly it depends whether the jets will be manufactured in India or in France. That is the very first question. If the jets will be made in India then I pity those people who think IAF can induct 36 Rafales in 2 years. They are just amateurs who watch too many action movies.

The reason MMRCA deal got botched was cost issues and the friction with ToT.

Yes Dassault MAY ramp up production. There is no hard clause signed that they will definitely do that and guarantee that 36 Rafales will be supplied to India in a span of two years. That is the first point.

Second point here is if and it is a big IF Dassault does produce 30 aircraft a year will those aircraft be meant exclusively for India or will there be other customers as well. Will Dassault put on hold other customers just to satisfy India or will they plan things according to their own schedule?

Will French Airforce, their navy and others be waiting on standby till the Indian order is fulfilled?

That is why I am saying wait and watch. If inducting aircrafts in an airforce was such an easy task then it would have been done so by now. India takes her time when it comes to defence procurement and being an India you should be knowing that only too well. Assault rifles, Arty guns, tanks etc. are all still waiting to be inducted even though the process was started years ago.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I am of the opinion that the Rafale is too expensive for us, but if we are buying them, let's buy them in large numbers, so that the cost of training, infra etc can be used more. Buying just 36 would be as stupid as can be. We made the same mistake with the mirage-2K, buying just 50 of them.

Buying one more squadron directly from France also makes sense, in view of the declining squadron strength.

Maybe a little expensive upfront (but then these days you don't get much change from $100 million for the latest batch of Super MKIs with the ability to launch the Brahmos-A) but the Rafales pay for themselves in the savings over the span of their lives (offering 20-25% more availability whilst being 30-40% cheaper to run). And with a combined CAPEX/OPEX budget of $620 billion to spend between 2014-2022 and India now growing at 7.5%+ a year the money is there.

 

[Dash]

I am of the opinion that the Rafale is too expensive for us, but if we are buying them, let's buy them in large numbers, so that the cost of training, infra etc can be used more. Buying just 36 would be as stupid as can be. We made the same mistake with the mirage-2K, buying just 50 of them.

Buying one more squadron directly from France also makes sense, in view of the declining squadron strength.

Could be. But essentially better. when it comes to security we might and for the time we are not selfsuffecient. This is the way. However it's a stop gap check and we need to trust our generals

 

[Abingdonboy]

Firstly it depends whether the jets will be manufactured in India or in France. That is the very first question. If the jets will be made in India then I pity those people who think IAF can induct 36 Rafales in 2 years. They are just amateurs who watch too many action movies.

have you been following this news even from a distance? All that was announced yesterday was a deal for 36 Rafales DIRECTLY FROM FRANCE ASAP- the words of the Prime Minister of India no less.

Yes Dassault MAY ramp up production. There is no hard clause signed that they will definitely do that and guarantee that 36 Rafales will be supplied to India in a span of two years. That is the first point.

Neither of us know the details of the agreement they signed for this 36 but if the Defence Minister of India is saying two years then I am going to believe him, he is FAR more informed on these matters the any of us sat behind a keyboard.

Will French Airforce, their navy and others be waiting on standby till the Indian order is fulfilled?

To meet the needs of Egypt planes earmarked for the FrAF are being delivered direct to Egypt so yes, if you get the right deal from the French government anything is possible and note here this deal for 36 was SEPARATE from the MMRCA and a direct govt-govt deal so it is plausible such guarantees were made to the GoI.

 

[kaykay]

Firstly it depends whether the jets will be manufactured in India or in France. That is the very first question. If the jets will be made in India then I pity those people who think IAF can induct 36 Rafales in 2 years. They are just amateurs who watch too many action movies.

The reason MMRCA deal got botched was cost issues and the friction with ToT.

Yes Dassault MAY ramp up production. There is no hard clause signed that they will definitely do that and guarantee that 36 Rafales will be supplied to India in a span of two years. That is the first point.

Second point here is if and it is a big IF Dassault does produce 30 aircraft a year will those aircraft be meant exclusively for India or will there be other customers as well. Will Dassault put on hold other customers just to satisfy India or will they plan things according to their own schedule?

Will French Airforce, their navy and others be waiting on standby till the Indian order is fulfilled?

That is why I am saying wait and watch. If inducting aircrafts in an airforce was such an easy task then it would have been done so by now. India takes her time when it comes to defence procurement and being an India you should be knowing that only too well. Assault rifles, Arty guns, tanks etc. are all still waiting to be inducted even though the process was started years ago.

I think you are arguing without even proper info. Whole point of this 36 rafale deal is to get them from France off the shelves. Where is the question of manufacturing them in India then? What India will manufacture is remaining 108 rafales which are under negotiations.

 

[axisofevil]

HAL better start incorporating cutting edge tech for manufacturing, we should do our best to limit manual work wherever we can. Mainly to address uniformity,quality control issues, reliability, faster output , etc.

 

[axisofevil]

From what I can see today I think 2022 is the current deadline for FGFA to enter IAF service but this is open to change- it could be brought forward (if the DM comes good on his promise to "fast track" the FGFA deal- don't hold your breath).


You're right about that, the trouble is on the Russian end and I have a sinking feeling they are going to take India for a ride, if we thought Vikramditya was a saga we haven't seen anything yet...

Russia is in a fragile state, it can be squeezed by Chinese interests.....that is an issue...

 

[Joseph Goebbels]

Boooohhooo thats a news for. Tejas getting FOC & its fast induction will enebale IAF to replenish atleast 5-6 squadrons by 2018. Add to that Sukhois rolling out from HAL. Next few years will be best years for IAF.

so you mean PLAAF& PAF might attack India anytime before "next two years"

Oh My God Im soooooooo scarred