India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[Pichkari]

In Berlin, Chancellor Merkel, will be rubbing her hands in glee after hearing this news of MMRCA cancellation.
The guys at EF will try their level best to prepare the best G to G deal which the GOI finds it very difficult to refuse.

Interesting times ahead. Get the Popcorn. The Rafale Vs EF game is still on.

Highly unlikely. 36 rafales then 36 eft's lol
Why not go for 36 f18's 36 gripens and 36 f16's too.
Then we will have a nice assortment to show off.
In Unity in diversity,We believe.

 

[Vasily Zaytsev]

Highly unlikely. 36 rafales then 36 eft's lol
Why not go for 36 f18's 36 gripens and 36 f16's too.
Then we will have a nice assortment to show off.
In Unity in diversity,We believe.

The deal for 36 is still to be negotiated. And if EF can offer a better deal then why not?
These 36 Rafales can go to SFC and IAF can have EF. All that I am saying is that EF has entered in the game if the contract is to be G to G.

 

[Bullet500]

So the number is dropped down to 36 now?

Some interesting comments:

View attachment 214031

These people haven't read any of the Vedas (neither have I) and claim them to be source of super duper tech...I don't know when this nonsense will stop.

As far as Rafale deal goes, at lease 36 is better than 0

 

[Ind4Ever]

The deal for 36 is still to be negotiated. And if EF can offer a better deal then why not?
These 36 Rafales can go to SFC and IAF can have EF. All that I am saying is that EF has entered in the game if the contract is to be G to G.

I still remember during the result of MMRCA winner . Whole Internet community supported EF and few we on Rafale side due to its A2G and EW suits. But otherwise EF will eat rafale for breakfast in A2A . But the problem is to get spares if we don't get ToT . Now we will be locked in another loop for 4 countries . So better go for Su35S clean and clear road map with best HAL as a supplier for Sukois

 

[Vasily Zaytsev]

I still remember during the result of MMRCA winner . Whole Internet community supported EF and few we on Rafale side due to its A2G and EW suits. But otherwise EF will eat rafale for breakfast in A2A . But the problem is to get spares if we don't get ToT . Now we will be locked in another loop for 4 countries . So better go for Su35S clean and clear road map with best HAL as a supplier for Sukois

Lets put aside these 36. Significant numbers further of any plane, be it Rafale/EF/Su35/XYZ will come through G to G Make in India route. MMRCA is gone. So each plane is fair game, Rafale/EF/Su35/XYZ.

 

[Dillinger]

Bhai I seriously doubt that we will operate F35 or mig29 from Vishal . I don't see any other better replacement for RafaleM for our future carries. as Russians offer for Naval Mig35 for Vikrant already been turned down due to doubts on new platform. Instead we choose Mig29 again for Vikrant . It's not about the spec our IN is looking for but proven platform and RafaleM fits their rerequirements largely . Since its been in service with French Navy. And let's not doubt it's capabilities . It's a ripper at sea . F18 has no life left after 1 decade or so. Supply of spares will be a huge head for us . So its out of questions too.

And on F35 I seriously doubt it's capabilities so does our Navy. Spec alone won't win us war. I will chose F35 in small numbers for certain mission rather for all carrier operations. And it's not a proven platform with huge price tag if we want decent specs . And Japanese has no other option but to buy F35 under US pressure . And hence they came up with Helicopter carriers the likes of which we will operate . Most probably 27 T french vessel as you said. But am sure F35 can be operated from its deck . As VL and VT is very much similar to

You don't seem to be getting the point. The Indian Navy has no interest in operating a menagerie of fighters, the IAF itself has had a hard enough time operating fighters from varied OEMs and IN is definitely in no position to court such an MRO nightmare. We will not be operating any fixed wing combatants from our LHD (also at this point the LDH is unlikely to be French, Navantia is in the lead in this particular race). It doesn't matter if VTOL and STOL are "similar", the IN simply has no use for fixed wing combatants on its marine platforms, we are not building a marine expeditionary force and in the eventuality of a marine deployment during hostilities it will be one of the IN's carriers which will provide fixed wing air-cover (a luxury which the Japanese do not have and therefore may have to opt for VTOL F-35s in the future).

As to the Rafale, it is not its performance which is in question, it can be a "ripper" but that will not change the fact the IN is no position to operate three different fixed wing combatants in its carrier air arm (Mig-29K, N-LCA MK2 and the prospective Rafale). At this point- either the IN will opt for a future carrier configuration which will allow the deployment of both ski jump platforms (29K) as well as larger AEW&C aircrafts with the use of whichever system (steam of EMALS) they chose; or the IN will have to restructure its air wing drastically- which will strain its funds (at a time when it is expanding its sub-surface fleet aggressively- not an inexpensive venture).

 

[wali87]

Naah. They will be equipped with RBE2-AA'S ( AESA radars) along with Spectra suite from very start. By the way number of Rafale will now rise to 144 from 126 earlier, 36+108 now compared to 18+108 earlier. Seems you have missed many infos so I will suggest that go through the entire thread.

Well It appears my information was correct after all, which answers your suggestion of going through the entire thread lol. The MMRCA deal is cancelled. India is only going for 36 rafales despite my projection of 70, which would be supplemented by Tejas. So i guess IAF will have to settle with that. Understandably, 20 Billion dollars was an outlandishly high number, even for a country like India to afford. 36, however, sounds more realistic.
now i wouldn't suggest you go through the entire thread to get updated. But do bother to read up on it, its everywhere. and don't be disappointed.

 

[RISING SUN]

Nerpa 85? I thot its 190..
Yes it is 190 Mw
The reconditioned Russian leased Chakra with 190MW nuclear power plant............
..:: India Strategic ::. Navy: Indian Navy inducts n-powered attack submarine INS Chakra

Steam turbine is 43000 hp of course

As per my information Arihant reactor is rated at 85 mw stabilised power while Nerpa is rated at 180 mw peak power. Arihant's steam power is rated at 70 mw while Akula's steam power generated from nuke reactor power is rated at 85 mw. Thank you.

 

[Ind4Ever]

You don't seem to be getting the point. The Indian Navy has no interest in operating a menagerie of fighters, the IAF itself has had a hard enough time operating fighters from varied OEMs and IN is definitely in no position to court such an MRO nightmare. We will not be operating any fixed wing combatants from our LHD (also at this point the LDH is unlikely to be French, Navantia is in the lead in this particular race). It doesn't matter if VTOL and STOL are "similar", the IN simply has no use for fixed wing combatants on its marine platforms, we are not building a marine expeditionary force and in the eventuality of a marine deployment during hostilities it will be one of the IN's carriers which will provide fixed wing air-cover (a luxury which the Japanese do not have and therefore may have to opt for VTOL F-35s in the future).

As to the Rafale, it is not its performance which is in question, it can be a "ripper" but that will not change the fact the IN is no position to operate three different fixed wing combatants in its carrier air arm (Mig-29K, N-LCA MK2 and the prospective Rafale). At this point- either the IN will opt for a future carrier configuration which will allow the deployment of both ski jump platforms (29K) as well as larger AEW&C aircrafts with the use of whichever system (steam of EMALS) they chose; or the IN will have to restructure its air wing drastically- which will strain its funds (at a time when it is expanding its sub-surface fleet aggressively- not an inexpensive venture).

Let's keep heli carrier out for moment . But how are you sure IN not interested in Rafale M for our next flat top carrier ? When Indian Navy have legally asked for RFI on Rafale M from dassault ? Which they have already submitted reply with IN recently if I may recall or if I am not wrong during later half of January 2015 ... CONFORMED BY DASSAULT chief himself.

Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant


Dassault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference that the French company has replied to a request for information from the Indian Navy on the naval Rafale M single-seat carrier-capable variant of its fighter.

Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant

Mig 29 K is a capable and most successful candidate too. But when IN can get more capable jet like Rafale M what's wrong with that. As of now 36 Rafale will be bought by IAF . Anyway we will have infrastructure for its maintenance purpose in India for sure . So logistics will be taken care of .

You don't seem to be getting the point. The Indian Navy has no interest in operating a menagerie of fighters, the IAF itself has had a hard enough time operating fighters from varied OEMs and IN is definitely in no position to court such an MRO nightmare. We will not be operating any fixed wing combatants from our LHD (also at this point the LDH is unlikely to be French, Navantia is in the lead in this particular race). It doesn't matter if VTOL and STOL are "similar", the IN simply has no use for fixed wing combatants on its marine platforms, we are not building a marine expeditionary force and in the eventuality of a marine deployment during hostilities it will be one of the IN's carriers which will provide fixed wing air-cover (a luxury which the Japanese do not have and therefore may have to opt for VTOL F-35s in the future).

As to the Rafale, it is not its performance which is in question, it can be a "ripper" but that will not change the fact the IN is no position to operate three different fixed wing combatants in its carrier air arm (Mig-29K, N-LCA MK2 and the prospective Rafale). At this point- either the IN will opt for a future carrier configuration which will allow the deployment of both ski jump platforms (29K) as well as larger AEW&C aircrafts with the use of whichever system (steam of EMALS) they chose; or the IN will have to restructure its air wing drastically- which will strain its funds (at a time when it is expanding its sub-surface fleet aggressively- not an inexpensive venture).

Wonder how you claim Rafale won't be operated on Vishal when Navy shown keen interest on them . Later conformed by assault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference.

 

[uparyupari]

Let's keep heli carrier out for moment . But how are you sure IN not interested in Rafale M for our next flat top carrier ? When Indian Navy have legally asked for RFI on Rafale M from dassault ? Which they have already submitted reply with IN recently if I may recall or if I am not wrong during later half of January 2015 ... CONFORMED BY DASSAULT chief himself.

Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant


Dassault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference that the French company has replied to a request for information from the Indian Navy on the naval Rafale M single-seat carrier-capable variant of its fighter.

Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant

Mig 29 K is a capable and most successful candidate too. But when IN can get more capable jet like Rafale M what's wrong with that. As of now 36 Rafale will be bought by IAF . Anyway we will have infrastructure for its maintenance purpose in India for sure . So logistics will be taken care of .


Wonder how you claim Rafale won't be operated on Vishal when Navy shown keen interest on them . Later conformed by assault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference.

IN was interest when it thought the IAF is buying it and its being made in India. Under the current circumstances, IN will not touch it. It will always go with Naval LCA.

 

[Ind4Ever]

IN was interest when it thought the IAF is buying it and its being made in India. Under the current circumstances, IN will not touch it. It will always go with Naval LCA.

You realise that we already bought it right ? And MMRCA cancelled but we MIGHT make in India under new G2G if possible/french willing to do so. Like MKI .

And may be just may be this 36 is been sought keeping IN in mind . Vishal is supposed to be our most powerful war ship we ever built . So IN will be looking to get the best they can .

 

[uparyupari]

You realise that we already bought it right ? And MMRCA cancelled but we MIGHT make in India under new G2G if possible/french willing to do so. Like MKI .

And may be just may be this 36 is been sought keeping IN in mind . Vishal is supposed to be our most powerful war ship we ever built . So IN will be looking to get the best they can .

So far we have only declared the intent to buy 36 Rafale PROVIDED they offer a lower price.

Negotiations are still on and nothing has been signed yet.

IN is quiet unlike the IAF. They prefer INDIAN stuff to Phoren maal. However good or bad the Indian maal might be, Indian Nay ALWAYS prefer Indian IF they have a choice.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Holland: the sale of additional Rafale to India "will be discussed"
The Point - Published 14.04.2015 on 14:41 - Changed the 14.04.2015 at 14:46

Negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority of which had to be manufactured in India.

The sale of additional Rafale to India, after an initial contract for 36 aircraft already passed, "will be discussed," but "our partner trust us", said Tuesday the president François Hollande, after recently sowed doubt by New Delhi about it. "The Rafale were sold within a framework that will be negotiated," said Francois Hollande, during a trip to Figeac (Lot). "It was necessary to do very quickly with the 36," said he explained with reference to the announcement made Friday by the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale. These 36 aircraft will be manufactured in France. Along with the sale of the 36 Rafale, negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority had to be manufactured in India. "For the rest, it will be discussed with our partner," but "he trusted us," continued Francois Hollande, following statements of India casting doubt on the future of this giant contract.

A contract close to 20 billion euros
The Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar indicated Monday night that the negotiations would not only after a call for tenders, as for the first 36 aircraft, but "government to government". "The goal could be achieved in a government to government agreement," he said, estimating that the negotiations launched in 2012 were taken in a "whirlwind" no solution in sight. The initial contract for 126 Rafale stated that 108 of them are manufactured in India, but the discussions were skating on the overall cost of the devices as part of an innovative technological transfers. Initially estimated at 12 billion euros, the contract would be closer to 20 billion euros, the cost of production of 108 Rafale products in India proving higher than aircraft assembled in France. In contrast, 36 Rafale, the sale was announced Friday, will come out of the Dassault plants in France.

The sale "is excellent for French industry, but at the same time, we must respect our Indian partner" and "see what part will be manufactured in France and how much will be manufactured in India," added the president Hollande, during a visit of advanced aeronautical industrial sites in Figeac.


Hollande : la vente de Rafale supplémentaires à l'Inde "va être débattue" - Le Point




MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief



Welcoming the government's decision to buy 36 Rafale planes, former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief P V Naik today said India should not throw the deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) into the trash and renegotiate it through Government-to- Government (G2G) route.

"I don't think the (MMRCA) deal is dead. The deal will probably be renegotiated, on a Government-to-Government basis if the price is right," the retired Air Chief Marshal told PTI in an interview.

It was during Naik's tenure as IAF chief that India shortlisted Rafale jet and Eurofighter Typhoon in July 2010 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder. The price negotiations by Ministry of Defence then showed Rafale emerge as the lowest bidder (L1).

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his visit to France, announced India would buy 36 Rafale planes from Dassault in fly-away condition through G2G route.

"First of all, purchase of the 36 aircraft outright is a good thing. This is a positive step. The deal will be renegotiated on a G2G basis, like we have been doing with the US so far. We haven't done a G2G deal with any other country," Naik said.

"Don't throw it (MMRCA deal) into the trash," he said, adding this means, whatever price that (French) air force gets at, you (India) will also get it at the same price.

"They say the 36 aircraft will come (to India) in two years. If that happens, it is a good thing. After signing the contract, it takes minimum three years. Probably, we might gain a year or so," the former IAF chief said.

He said people should not get worried about the deal. "You will get the number of aircraft needed."

Asked what more does the Indian Government need to do to expedite the MMRCA deal, Naik said, "They will have to sit here at the ministry level, approve of the G2G deal.

"I am not aware what transpired during the (Indo-French) discussions. If they have agreed to G2G, then there will be several other items on the basket," the former Air Chief Marshal said.

To a query on his views on the status of overall defence procurement for IAF, he said, "it (procurement) is lagging.

"This (MMRCA) is the biggest deal. It has been in the works for several years. Other things are on track, like additional AWACs, indigenisation and refuelling aircraft."

Drawing the analogy that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated yesterday the USD 20 billion MMRCA tender may be scrapped.

MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief | Business Standard News

 

[uparyupari]

Holland: the sale of additional Rafale to India "will be discussed"
The Point - Published 14.04.2015 on 14:41 - Changed the 14.04.2015 at 14:46

Negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority of which had to be manufactured in India.

The sale of additional Rafale to India, after an initial contract for 36 aircraft already passed, "will be discussed," but "our partner trust us", said Tuesday the president François Hollande, after recently sowed doubt by New Delhi about it. "The Rafale were sold within a framework that will be negotiated," said Francois Hollande, during a trip to Figeac (Lot). "It was necessary to do very quickly with the 36," said he explained with reference to the announcement made Friday by the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale. These 36 aircraft will be manufactured in France. Along with the sale of the 36 Rafale, negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority had to be manufactured in India. "For the rest, it will be discussed with our partner," but "he trusted us," continued Francois Hollande, following statements of India casting doubt on the future of this giant contract.

A contract close to 20 billion euros
The Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar indicated Monday night that the negotiations would not only after a call for tenders, as for the first 36 aircraft, but "government to government". "The goal could be achieved in a government to government agreement," he said, estimating that the negotiations launched in 2012 were taken in a "whirlwind" no solution in sight. The initial contract for 126 Rafale stated that 108 of them are manufactured in India, but the discussions were skating on the overall cost of the devices as part of an innovative technological transfers. Initially estimated at 12 billion euros, the contract would be closer to 20 billion euros, the cost of production of 108 Rafale products in India proving higher than aircraft assembled in France. In contrast, 36 Rafale, the sale was announced Friday, will come out of the Dassault plants in France.

The sale "is excellent for French industry, but at the same time, we must respect our Indian partner" and "see what part will be manufactured in France and how much will be manufactured in India," added the president Hollande, during a visit of advanced aeronautical industrial sites in Figeac.


Hollande : la vente de Rafale supplémentaires à l'Inde "va être débattue" - Le Point




MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief



Welcoming the government's decision to buy 36 Rafale planes, former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief P V Naik today said India should not throw the deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) into the trash and renegotiate it through Government-to- Government (G2G) route.

"I don't think the (MMRCA) deal is dead. The deal will probably be renegotiated, on a Government-to-Government basis if the price is right," the retired Air Chief Marshal told PTI in an interview.

It was during Naik's tenure as IAF chief that India shortlisted Rafale jet and Eurofighter Typhoon in July 2010 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder. The price negotiations by Ministry of Defence then showed Rafale emerge as the lowest bidder (L1).

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his visit to France, announced India would buy 36 Rafale planes from Dassault in fly-away condition through G2G route.

"First of all, purchase of the 36 aircraft outright is a good thing. This is a positive step. The deal will be renegotiated on a G2G basis, like we have been doing with the US so far. We haven't done a G2G deal with any other country," Naik said.

"Don't throw it (MMRCA deal) into the trash," he said, adding this means, whatever price that (French) air force gets at, you (India) will also get it at the same price.

"They say the 36 aircraft will come (to India) in two years. If that happens, it is a good thing. After signing the contract, it takes minimum three years. Probably, we might gain a year or so," the former IAF chief said.

He said people should not get worried about the deal. "You will get the number of aircraft needed."

Asked what more does the Indian Government need to do to expedite the MMRCA deal, Naik said, "They will have to sit here at the ministry level, approve of the G2G deal.

"I am not aware what transpired during the (Indo-French) discussions. If they have agreed to G2G, then there will be several other items on the basket," the former Air Chief Marshal said.

To a query on his views on the status of overall defence procurement for IAF, he said, "it (procurement) is lagging.

"This (MMRCA) is the biggest deal. It has been in the works for several years. Other things are on track, like additional AWACs, indigenisation and refuelling aircraft."

Drawing the analogy that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated yesterday the USD 20 billion MMRCA tender may be scrapped.

MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief | Business Standard News

Flogging a Dead horse

 

[Ind4Ever]

So far we have only declared the intent to buy 36 Rafale PROVIDED they offer a lower price.

Negotiations are still on and nothing has been signed yet.

IN is quiet unlike the IAF. They prefer INDIAN stuff to Phoren maal. However good or bad the Indian maal might be, Indian Nay ALWAYS prefer Indian IF they have a choice.

Understand !! I agree . But my point was When we have mig 29K in service Our Navy sent RFI for rafale . So what it means ? We are not looking to operate migs on Vishal. We are going for big one.