India to buy 26 Naval Rafales, 3 Scorpene submarines from France, deals likely to be announced during PM Modi's visit.

[SQ8]

Nothing snide about it. If your Military establishment has figured out a way for IMF to bankroll it's ambitions, that is quite an achievement. You are the one who is denying it...

So?
How does that have any relevance to capability?

Von Braun was a Nazi - yet all that mattered was he got US to the moon first.

Whether indigenous, foreign, loaned, smuggled or whatever - so long as the weapon system works and ensures a dead Indian versus a dead Pakistani - that is all that matters. Everything else you refer to is just you passing low ball remarks which frankly show your intent here.

The Balakot incident served as evidence of the Indian military's capability to target Pakistan at a specific time and location of their choosing.

And the response showed the same for Pakistan. Now you can spend the next twenty days presenting Indian PoVs on your sources or simply do the usual agree to disagree , shut up and move on

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I don’t think its a mess everywhere but it was a huge mess In project and budget management. There is a lot of knowledge creation progress made but the problem is the boomer and Gen X desi generation which seriously stymied progress and development for the longest while.


Agreed - it will eventually come once the ecosystem fully gets settled in. I disagree though that private capacities didn’t exist - there were plenty of bright candidates but as I mentioned before - the boomer and Gen X babus scuttled them and those folks moved abroad

Just my observation, but I found Indians to be incredibly process-driven. They need to have (or develop) a process to get from A to Z, and that approach to things has helped them achieve many high-level technologies (e.g., composites, gas turbines, etc). However, the bureaucracy and executive leadership can also be very process-driven, and that can, at times, be paralyzing.

So, for example, if the IAF says "We need X+1" and the decision-makers (who sign off on arms deals) agree with the IAF, they'll want "X+1" regardless of the regional dynamics and other consequences of that decision. If HAL sends them just "X" the IAF will throw it back at HAL. Hence why the IAF kept sending the Tejas back to HAL over and over again, but at the cost of being a number of squadrons short.

In contrast, in Pakistan, you have to be flexible and "work with what you've got" provided it can do the baseline. So, if all you can get right now is the JF-17 Block-I (which, to the IAF, would be an incomplete build), then you move ahead with the JF-17 Block-I. If the PAF leadership had been in the IAF's shoes, then -- IMHO -- it would've taken the Tejas as-is provided it was an improvement over the MiG-21. It's just a shame the PAF couldn't leverage the same funding and industrial pool available to the IAF (and our senior leadership, military included, can be blamed for it).

 

[Zarvan]

As for Subs we would already be getting 8 of ours from China soon and then we also plan to go for those Subs which operate in close shores. As for 26 Rafale we would have to get two squadrons of J-10 C now to cover Pakistan Navy and counter these 26.

 

[MilSpec]

So?
How does that have any relevance to capability?

Shit ton of comments on Indian space program while high poverty rates, kosher... same argument on defence procurement for Pakistan while on 22nd imf program will draw the ire...

Von Braun was a Nazi - yet all that mattered was he got US to the moon first.

Whether indigenous, foreign, loaned, smuggled or whatever - so long as the weapon system works and ensures a dead Indian versus a dead Pakistani - that is all that matters. Everything else you refer to is just you passing low ball remarks which frankly show your intent here.

Thanks.... better than I could have ever stated.. all the military bashing bs that happened here.... pakistans blind hatred for India is the actual free pass for your brass to subvert any institution it wants.

 

[MilSpec]

Agreed - it will eventually come once the ecosystem fully gets settled in. I disagree though that private capacities didn’t exist - there were plenty of bright candidates but as I mentioned before - the boomer and Gen X babus scuttled them and those folks moved abroad

Throughout the 80s 90s 00s, interest rates in India were in the teens.....
Incentive for greenfield Capex with opm of 15%, had no incentive. Even now, no takers for small arms.

 

[One_Nation]

Rafale deal: The real reason why HAL was not picked as offset partner

The Centre told the Supreme Court that the state owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) failed to become an offset partner in the Rafale deal as there were several unresolved issues it had with Dassault, the French company.

www.oneindia.com

It said HAL required "2.7 times higher man-hours compared to the French side for the manufacture of Rafale aircraft in India.

In western countries Indians are well known to have a similar ratio of man hours in other fields like IT, taxi, truck driving etc. basically everything they do.

 

[indushek]

Just my observation, but I found Indians to be incredibly process-driven. They need to have (or develop) a process to get from A to Z, and that approach to things has helped them achieve many high-level technologies (e.g., composites, gas turbines, etc). However, the bureaucracy and executive leadership can also be very process-driven, and that can, at times, be paralyzing.

So, for example, if the IAF says "We need X+1" and the decision-makers (who sign off on arms deals) agree with the IAF, they'll want "X+1" regardless of the regional dynamics and other consequences of that decision. If HAL sends them just "X" the IAF will throw it back at HAL. Hence why the IAF kept sending the Tejas back to HAL over and over again, but at the cost of being a number of squadrons short.

In contrast, in Pakistan, you have to be flexible and "work with what you've got" provided it can do the baseline. So, if all you can get right now is the JF-17 Block-I (which, to the IAF, would be an incomplete build), then you move ahead with the JF-17 Block-I. If the PAF leadership had been in the IAF's shoes, then -- IMHO -- it would've taken the Tejas as-is provided it was an improvement over the MiG-21. It's just a shame the PAF couldn't leverage the same funding and industrial pool available to the IAF (and our senior leadership, military included, can be blamed for it).

Hi a incisive observation, but just for my clarity

In the X + 1, did you mean X being the basic platform, and the 1 being some additional features desired?

There is a feeling that, our Armed forces at times act like brats (or if one has to be very unsavory always), who demand super features. Keep changing their requirements too, and just love imported platforms. Only Navy is seen as exception, as they always narrow down requirements and work on it to induct platforms in time. Only the P75I has become an exception, where they went all bratty.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi a incisive observation, but just for my clarity

In the X + 1, did you mean X being the basic platform, and the 1 being some additional features desired?

There is a feeling that, our Armed forces at times act like brats (or if one has to be very unsavory always), who demand super features. Keep changing their requirements too, and just love imported platforms. Only Navy is seen as exception, as they always narrow down requirements and work on it to induct platforms in time. Only the P75I has become an exception, where they went all bratty.

Yep, I feel that the IAF (not sure about IA or IN) kept moving the goalposts for the Tejas. For example, if in 2012 some OEM starts marketing fighters with an AESA radar, the IAF tells HAL, "The Tejas must have an AESA radar to qualify." However, even the foreign OEMs themselves don't come up with AESA-equipped fighters until 2019, leaving the IAF to wait 7 years without any fighter just to see HAL and the foreign OEM meet their requirement.

If it had been the PAF, the PAF would've taken the Tejas as-is (with a pulse-doppler radar) but then tell HAL to come up with an AESA-equipped variant plus an upgrade path for the older Tejas fighters. Basically, the PAF wouldn't needlessly wait 7 years to replace an old fighter unless it was cut out of any other option (because of sanctions, loss of funding, etc). The PAF will not religiously stick to a rigid process if said process got in the way of meeting real-world goals; they'll adjust the process.

Perhaps (due to some internal analysis) the IAF doesn't want to deal with a massive upgrade requirement (like it's dealing with the Su-30MKI), so it'd rather just delay the Tejas until it gets the absolute most ideal -- and endurable -- build on the board. So, yes, you might lose 10 years due to waiting, but you don't have to upgrade the fighter until 30 years later.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

As for Subs we would already be getting 8 of ours from China soon and then we also plan to go for those Subs which operate in close shores. As for 26 Rafale we would have to get two squadrons of J-10 C now to cover Pakistan Navy and counter these 26.

And that will cost you your entire forex

 

[Zarvan]

And that will cost you your entire forex

That is our pain. But we would get them. Although what I think our already orders of J 10 is around 72 if not more.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

That is our pain. But we would get them. Although what I think our already orders of J 10 is around 72 if not more.

Hope it happens soon

 

[SQ8]

Shit ton of comments on Indian space program while high poverty rates, kosher... same argument on defence procurement for Pakistan while on 22nd imf program will draw the ire...



Thanks.... better than I could have ever stated.. all the military bashing bs that happened here.... pakistans blind hatred for India is the actual free pass for your brass to subvert any institution it wants.

So, we take them out when we can but that needs to be evened out here?

Yes, the brass is able to use blind hatred and they are property dealers with a country and what not - but being sanctimonious and projecting all the time doesn’t suit your flag…

Those property dealers for all your accusations of lying and misrepresenting even if true - have gotten what they needed to work and for that they do deserve the credit for it.

 

[Chute]

Just my observation, but I found Indians to be incredibly process-driven. They need to have (or develop) a process to get from A to Z, and that approach to things has helped them achieve many high-level technologies (e.g., composites, gas turbines, etc). However, the bureaucracy and executive leadership can also be very process-driven, and that can, at times, be paralyzing.

So, for example, if the IAF says "We need X+1" and the decision-makers (who sign off on arms deals) agree with the IAF, they'll want "X+1" regardless of the regional dynamics and other consequences of that decision. If HAL sends them just "X" the IAF will throw it back at HAL. Hence why the IAF kept sending the Tejas back to HAL over and over again, but at the cost of being a number of squadrons short.

In contrast, in Pakistan, you have to be flexible and "work with what you've got" provided it can do the baseline. So, if all you can get right now is the JF-17 Block-I (which, to the IAF, would be an incomplete build), then you move ahead with the JF-17 Block-I. If the PAF leadership had been in the IAF's shoes, then -- IMHO -- it would've taken the Tejas as-is provided it was an improvement over the MiG-21. It's just a shame the PAF couldn't leverage the same funding and industrial pool available to the IAF (and our senior leadership, military included, can be blamed for it).

The process driven Indians left with the Turks from this forum.

What you have left here now are the mirror reflection types of what ails Pakistan.

 

[indushek]

Yep, I feel that the IAF (not sure about IA or IN) kept moving the goalposts for the Tejas. For example, if in 2012 some OEM starts marketing fighters with an AESA radar, the IAF tells HAL, "The Tejas must have an AESA radar to qualify." However, even the foreign OEMs themselves don't come up with AESA-equipped fighters until 2019, leaving the IAF to wait 7 years without any fighter just to see HAL and the foreign OEM meet their requirement.

If it had been the PAF, the PAF would've taken the Tejas as-is (with a pulse-doppler radar) but then tell HAL to come up with an AESA-equipped variant plus an upgrade path for the older Tejas fighters. Basically, the PAF wouldn't needlessly wait 7 years to replace an old fighter unless it was cut out of any other option (because of sanctions, loss of funding, etc). The PAF will not religiously stick to a rigid process if said process got in the way of meeting real-world goals; they'll adjust the process.

Perhaps (due to some internal analysis) the IAF doesn't want to deal with a massive upgrade requirement (like it's dealing with the Su-30MKI), so it'd rather just delay the Tejas until it gets the absolute most ideal -- and endurable -- build on the board. So, yes, you might lose 10 years due to waiting, but you don't have to upgrade the fighter until 30 years later.

Thank you and perfectly described as well

IN had the same issue in P75I program, where they wanted a Sub with fuel cell based AIP. Scorpenes that we built here under TOT, seemed to have a AIP (think its called MESMA) but that wasn't fuel cell based. So they took the Scorpenes without the AIP, and wanted a AIP system retrofitted that wasn't even used by Germany and S Korea. Its good that DRDO managed to make a AIP, and it is said to be very quiet because of no moving parts as well (Spain seems to have this too). However this kind of super requirements, again meant that the fleet strength went low and 3 additional Scorpenes are going to be ordered. In contrast Pakistan went for Hangor class, and will soon be inducting 9 or something brand new subs.

 

[Zarvan]

Hope it happens soon

You also need to hope as in this France visit there you have signed deal for 3 Submarines, but no deal signed for 26 Rafale M. So, it seems more talks have yet to take place.