India should learn a lesson from Pak army

[Irfan Baloch]

Nice and touching but just speculations.. Wont say that its not possible, but there is nothing to refute the official version...

nothing touching , like I said it was war and India did what an enemy can be expected to do. the "speculation" as you put it simply based on what had happned to 2 IAF planes.

First there is no revenge in war..

Second, according IAF pilots and radar operator, the PN Antlantiqe which had crossed over to the Indian airspace was challenged two Migs from Naliya airbase.

the American war on terror is all based on revenge, look at their songs and their videos, the banter of their soldiers, pay back time and all that.

I understand and respect what you are saying but simply stating what normally goes through the mindset of people when the emotions are high and there is a chance to strike.

respecting your account of the events PN pilot had the right to escape (according to Geneva conventions) so if shooting down an attempted escape bid cant be faulted then so cant be the attempt for freedom.

again no moral argument, no sensitivities (as alleged by Karan) simply stating how the events took place and how the earlier shooting down of Indian places "could have" played their part.
lets not forget the media and military triumph that was exhibited and the shooting down touted as a revenge for the 2 IAF planes by the Indian side. if you can prove me wrong then you have my apologies

 

[Operation trident]

I wish you were right but the PN plane was shot down as a revenge for the two INAF planes that Pak air defence shot down. There was no plan to take prisoners.

so they were already waiting for an opportunity and they found PN plane that couldn’t defend itself and shot it down. Pakistan should have known better.

I wont criticise India, it was war time and they seized the chance and scored a very big kill. Bringing in morality and fairness in all this is waste of engery.

During the Afghan occupation, when PAF started to shoot down Afghan & Soviet planes then they threatened with shooting down any Passenger and transport plane they could as a revenge and the PAF paid the heed and started to escort all passenger and transport flights including the commercial ones that flew on the Western side of Pakistan and no such thing happened.

When the news broke out of two Indian Air force jets being shot down I was sure that Indians will retaliate and wont spare any chance be it transport, or recon or a passenger plane and use the heat of the moment to justify their kill and so they did. A propeller plane vs a jet interceptor was no match whether it was within Pakistani space or dangerously near the border. What chance do you think the Atlantic pilot flying a propeller plan would have had to evade a jet fighter? A fast interceptor was used that scored the kill and PN paid a heavy price for not having any air or ground defence to prevent that loss.

I wish you were right but the PN plane was shot down as a revenge for the two INAF planes that Pak air defence shot down.

Not two, one jet crashed due to problem in engine.
both of them fighting with intruders but what the hell that atlantiqe was doing( according bilateral agreement between india and pakistan, no millitary aircraft allowed in near 10 km from border) ?????

 

[raavan]

I wish you were right but the PN plane was shot down as a revenge for the two INAF planes that Pak air defence shot down.

Not two, one jet crashed due to problem in engine.
both of them fighting with intruders but what the hell that atlantiqe was doing( according bilateral agreement between india and pakistan, no millitary aircraft allowed in near 10 km from border) ?????

So i guess that agreement is no longer valid. Clearly Pakistan does not seem to be obeying it.

 

[Contract Killer]

Precisely the reason for this thread.

Other then Atlantis part............ I am with you Bro. We need to appreciate there efforts as these small small recognitions will be very helpful for peaceful resolution of a greater Issue.

 

[IND151]

In the Atlantique incident, the PN aircraft did not respond to the instructions of the IA fighter. It was only then the decision to shoot it down was taken. In this incident, the helicopter crew followed the instructions of the PA fighters.
There is a difference between the two incidents on what the crew did and the consequences differed too.

i agree with you friend

 

[ziaulislam]

In the Atlantique incident, the PN aircraft did not respond to the instructions of the IA fighter. It was only then the decision to shoot it down was taken. In this incident, the helicopter crew followed the instructions of the PA fighters.
There is a difference between the two incidents on what the crew did and the consequences differed too.

the chopper came 25 km into our boarder while the debris of the navy plan was inside pakistani terrority..
an unarmed plane if feared to shot would have responded to any such orders..
fact was it was shot into our terrority...

 

[ziaulislam]

I wish you were right but the PN plane was shot down as a revenge for the two INAF planes that Pak air defence shot down.

Not two, one jet crashed due to problem in engine.
both of them fighting with intruders but what the hell that atlantiqe was doing( according bilateral agreement between india and pakistan, no millitary aircraft allowed in near 10 km from border) ?????

well i think he was is right..

and anyone can ask what the hell was choppper doing 25km inside our boarder...

Pak Navy aircraft was shot 8km inside pakistani boarder..atleast it debris was 8km inside

---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ----------

well here i only see indians agreeing with indians.....how ironic!

 

[ares]

nothing touching , like I said it was war and India did what an enemy can be expected to do. the "speculation" as you put it simply based on what had happned to 2 IAF planes.



the American war on terror is all based on revenge, look at their songs and their videos, the banter of their soldiers, pay back time and all that.

I understand and respect what you are saying but simply stating what normally goes through the mindset of people when the emotions are high and there is a chance to strike.

respecting your account of the events PN pilot had the right to escape (according to Geneva conventions) so if shooting down an attempted escape bid cant be faulted then so cant be the attempt for freedom.

again no moral argument, no sensitivities (as alleged by Karan) simply stating how the events took place and how the earlier shooting down of Indian places "could have" played their part.
lets not forget the media and military triumph that was exhibited and the shooting down touted as a revenge for the 2 IAF planes by the Indian side. if you can prove me wrong then you have my apologies

I disagree, American WOT is based on the policy of "never again" ie never will let such as thus happen to them again.
Revenge is a much simpler dish...had they only wanted only revenge they would have just bombed Afghanistan relentlessly till nobody was left to oppose them ..instead they have involved them selves(their men and resources) to rebuild and stabilize Afghanistan. So that Afghanistan does not become a host such terror activities again.

Letting it escape was not an options that existed.
1) It had happened right after kargil war..hence tension were still high..India was still on lookout for any misadventures from Pakistani side.. Infact after reading about the incident in morning's newspaper, I remember thinking to my self..."hmm so Pakistanis are planning a Kargil type intrusion on Kutch border now!!"

2) It was a surveillance plane with the ability carry arms and according to IAF officials there had been numerous intrusions in the same area that very week .Hence the element element of doubt was there on what kind of data..it might have accumulated and will carry back with it.

3) There is a bilateral agreement between India and Pakistan..which says combat planes from either side will not fly with 10 Kms of international border. So question was what is a spy plane doing so close international border.

4) It did not respond to international protocol but did try to make a dash for Pakistani airspace.

Had the roles been reversed and Indian heli tried to make dash to Indian side after intruding 20 Km with in Pakistani airspace..would Pakistani interceptors have let it go??

 

[Operation trident]

well i think he was is right..

and anyone can ask what the hell was choppper doing 25km inside our boarder...

Pak Navy aircraft was shot 8km inside pakistani boarder..atleast it debris was 8km inside

---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ----------

well here i only see indians agreeing with indians.....how ironic!

source( neutral)?

 

[boris]

Its still not over,the torture of Lt. Saurabh Kalia and his men as yet to be avenged.

 

[Tshering22]

The last time a Pak navy aircraft ventured ( supposedly) in to India air space we shot it down killing 16 Pakistanis. here is a brief description of what happened.

10 August ,1999
The French-built naval plane Breguet Atlantique (Breguet Br.1150 Atlantique) plane, flight Atlantic-91, c/n 33, of 29 Squadron was one of Pakistan Navy's frontline aircraft, used primarily for patrol and reconnaissance. Atlantic-91 left Mehran (Sindh province) Naval Base in Pakistan at 9:15 a.m. (PST). An Indian Air Force ground radar picked up the flight path of the plane approaching the International Border. Two IAF Mig-21 interceptor aircraft of No.45 Squadron, from the Indian airbase at Naliya in the Kutch region, were soon scrambled by the Indian Air Force. After a series of maneuvers—and a conflicting version of events from both sides—the two jets were given clearance to shoot down the Pakistani plane.[6] At 11:17 a.m. IST (10:47 a.m. PST), nearly two hours after takeoff from Pakistan, the Atlantique was intercepted and an infrared homing R-60 air-to-air missile was fired at it by Squadron Leader P.K. Bundela, hitting the engine on the port side of the plane.This resulted in the aircraft losing control and spiraling towards a crash at approximately 1100 hours PST and approximate location 23°54′N 68°16′E, killing all 16 on board the Atlantic-91, including five officers of the Pakistan Navy.

The incident was the Pakistan Navy's only loss of an aircraft to hostile fire in its history, and the biggest combat-related casualty for the navy since the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971.

An Indian military chopper crossed into Pakistan's territory today. Pakistan could have done the exact same thing as we did with their naval aircraft but instead they acted responsibly and any potential clash was duly averted.

The point is we always blame Pakistan for terror blasts ,kargil etc. But sometimes even an enemy can teach a lesson.

Thank you Pakistan for returning our crew.

You clearly are ignorant in awareness about times of war and times of peace.

Blind optimism and apologeticism is not exactly the cup of tea when it comes to military matters, mate. Take that from the family person of not one or two but 4 different military persons serving in four different arms. Try putting the person you love as your own self in that boot and let's see that drab come out of you again.

 

[StormShadow]

Its still not over,the torture of Lt. Saurabh Kalia and his men as yet to be avenged.

Inshallah.

 

[Abingdonboy]

In the Atlantique incident, the PN aircraft did not respond to the instructions of the IA fighter. It was only then the decision to shoot it down was taken. In this incident, the helicopter crew followed the instructions of the PA fighters.
There is a difference between the two incidents on what the crew did and the consequences differed too.

Not to mention the Alantique incident occurred not very long after the Kargil war so the Indian military were rightfully on high alert and very tense. Not to mention the Atlantique could be used for offensive ops whilst this helo couldn't.


Very different circumstances, it's foolish to compare.

 

[BLEND]

i think indian people should thank pakistan for their kind gesture.

both should respect international protocols and work in a healthy environment.

 

[Awesome]

I have to put a finer point on this, the Atlantique did not venture into Indian airspace, it made a technical violation by going nearer than 5km to the Indian airspace which is not allowed.

But those were different times... Somebody up there took a cheap shot with the Mumbai mention (even though the Indian government acknowledges that Pak government nor army had anything to do with it), but thats just the thing, back in 2001 a small incident flared up a big confrontation, and the big Mumbai incident invoked a reaction probably a quarter of that.

So relations have improved...