India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets

[sudhir007]

but i think it is too expansive now last time when i read information yr back it will come at $55-60 M (India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs?)

this 42 aircraft contract to be signed by june july 2010, cost is 3.5 billions thats almost 100 million a plane its advanced version with major upgrades , indian officials had a look at the new model...in irkust plant late last year

 

[Moscow]

its expensive because its at par with similar aircrafts contesting in mrca with advanced tech
world over prices have increased

 

[sancho]

How many times MoD has changed their decision after trails are over and deals are in final phase? Delay in artillery modernization program and recent scraping of airbus refueling tanker are examples. So let’s see what comes up after the deal is signed.

In both examples it wasn't MoD that changed things, the one ended in a bribery case and the other one was rejected by the finance ministry, IAF and MoD cleared the A330 tankers!

Have HAL declared the engine for LCA-MK2? I do not think the deal has been finalized. I do not want to count my chicken before they are hatched. HAL’s track record in meeting deadline is well known. So, as of now, 40 LCA for me. When HAL is ready with first test flight of LCA- MK2, I will talk about that.

No the evaluation is still going on, but the RFP that was send to both engine makers was for 99 + 49 optional engines, so the least number of LCA Mk2 is officially 99:

...The companies have until 12 October to respond to the request with information on their respective F414 and EJ200 turbofans, with New Delhi looking to buy 99 engines and take an option on another 49...

India seeks proposals for Tejas 2 fighter engine

Eurojet, GE submit offset offers for Tejas LCA engine news
12 December 2009
Bangalore: Eurofighter engine manufacturing consortium, Eurojet and American aerospace giant General Electric have submitted offset proposals for their bids for as many as 99 engines for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. According to reports, the bids were submitted to the ministry of defence on Friday, a day before expiry of the deadline on 12 December...

domain-b.com : Eurojet, GE submit offset offers for Tejas LCA engine

If any platform fires the same weapons are they same? What about the radar, airframe, avionics, range, and weight etc? By replacing if you mean replacing squadron number then you are right. But SU-30 MKI is altogether and way above mig27 and mig23.

See in the past Mig 29 was our main air superiority and the Mig 27 our main ground attack fighter, especially for heavy stirkes. But then multi role fighters arrived and the Su 30 MK is the multi role, strike fighter version of the Su 35 (Su 34 is a dedicated bomber design, specially for Russian needs), similar to the US F15 Strike Eagle!
The MK offers a lot of payload, range, weapon stations and more important 2 pilots and a big variety of A2G weapons, that makes it very useful in this role and why China bought it in addition to their single seat air superiority Flankers.
So to replace Mig 23 BN and Mig 27 ground attack fighters, the MKI is more than useful, even these are only its secondary capabilities, besides the main air superiority role.
It is wrong to say the one is more capable and that's why it can't be a replacement, because you forget the evolution in fighter development. All 4 - 4+ fighters are clearly more capable than older gen fighters and all 5. gen fighters will be more capable then them, so that is not an argument.

LCA when it comes by 2012-13 will replace existing mig21 and BISONs. Again MRCA (which plane comes) would be much capable than Mig21 and BISONs. Agree due to the delay MRCA is coming in. But it was never supposed to replace mig21 or BISONs. It will enhance the fire power of IAF .

Let me explain the last post more detailed, LCA was supposed to be the replacement for all Mig 21, that's right! But due to the delays in development, IAF/MoD don't wanted to rely only on LCA, because of the shrinking squad numbers. That's why they wanted the first MRCA competition to replace at least a part of the Mig 21 faster and with a ready and proven fighter.
The initial contenders was similar light class, single engine, interceptors just like the Mig 21, or LCA (the Gripen C/D, Mirage 2005, F16 B52) and only the Mig 29SMT as a double engine fighter. Even these fighers were clearly more capable than the Mig 21s, but are used mainly in the same intercepter role.
The only reason why we now have even more capable and mainly medium class fighters was, that Dassault replaced the Mirage 2005, with the new Rafale in the competition, which was followed by offers from Boeing and the EF consortium for F18SH and EF, so a totally new competition was needed (the M-MRCA).
The aim of IAF/MoD is still the same, replacement of a part of the Mig 21, but the capabilities of course increased clearly!
Around 125 Mig 21 was upgraded to the most capable Bison level and will remain in service till 2020-25 at max, pretty much the same number and time frame that is given in MMRCA!

Replacement in numbers will most likely be like this:

Mig 21 Bis/M/MF (around 145 fighters) => 20 - 40 x LCA MK1 and at least 99 x MK2.
Mig 21 Bisons (around 125) => at least 126 x MMRCA

Capabilitywise, the LCAs and the upg Mirage and Mig 29s will form the low end in future, while MMRCA, MKI and 5. gen fighters will be the high end.

 

[sancho]

Replacing skin sections is not a big deal. I remember IAF mig-29's got similar upgrade when they had their upgrades done in India a few years ago. It makes sense specially where fatigue is an issue and skin sections need replacement anyway!

Internal weapons was reported by indian and russian media if I remember correctly. Though I agree that it makes no sense at all! I doubt they will get new engines with this MLU. The IAF is pretty happy with Su-30's TWR and performance. Moreover Koraput had signed the deal for all replacement engines as well so unless the deal is changed, we won't see new engines. Moreover, addition of composites will surely reduce weight! I agree that an OLS change is possible more so due to their loss in performance with time/ exposure. Similarly it is possible to incorporate L band radars (slot arrays similar to secondary PAKFA radars) for su-30 as was shown in MAKS 2009. However, I am not sure if these are warranted at this stage. Maybe the next MLU will have engines, OLS, etc!

Internal weapon bay would make a lot of sense to reduce RCS, but it won't be a stealth fighter like that. The fact that one of the upg capabilities will be to carry Brahmos on the centerline station, makes such weapon bays sadly not possible.
I disagree on the engine, because even on the official Saturn site it is stated that the S117 will be offered to all Su 35/Su 30 customers as upgrades and more thrust is definitely needed if it carries 2.5t Brahmos. I have doubt about SC too, because the MKI weighs more than the Su 35, but 3D TVC will be added for sure.

So new OLS, radar and engine upgrade and possibly L-band radars on the wings, to increase situational awareness, could come from Russia. I also expect new Indian and western avionics, as well es RAM coatings which is imo the most important point!

How will it stack up against F15E-silent eagle
SU30 MKI SMT vs F15 SE
Any guesses
F15 se is my fav plane of all times - i doubt anything can overwhelm that except f22

It is not more than a upgraded F15, nothing more! It is nowhere near of 5. gen fighters only because it uses CFTs that can house some weapons and have some RAM coatings. Just compare the air intakes of it with complete new designs like EF, or Rafale and you will understand the difference.

 

[KEETARP]

The only reason why we now have even more capable and mainly medium class fighters was, that Dassault replaced the Mirage 2005, with the new Rafale in the competition, which was followed by offers from Boeing and the EF consortium for F18SH and EF, so a totally new competition was needed (the M-MRCA).

Nope- It was US who offered us F18- before then rafale arrived.
It first cleared F16 to pakistan then to shut our mouths Condeliza Rice asked the manufacturers L.M and Boeing to offer us better planes. F18 came that way-
that forced Dassault to rethink+combined with shutting of mirage lines-entered Rafale
When tender became 10 biilion prize - EADS and Germans steeped in.

I disagree on the engine, because even on the official Saturn site it is stated that the S117 will be offered to all Su 35/Su 30 customers as upgrades and more thrust is definitely needed if it carries 2.5t Brahmos. I have doubt about SC too, because the MKI weighs more than the Su 35, but 3D TVC will be added for sure.

Sancho link plz

It is not more than a upgraded F15, nothing more! It is nowhere near of 5. gen fighters only because it uses CFTs that can house some weapons and have some RAM coatings. Just compare the air intakes of it with complete new designs like EF, or Rafale and you will understand the difference.

But the EW suite and 1200 module AESA is gem of an addition.
Avionics wise it is rt at top. Only drawback is design which was not buid for LO/Stealth
But still use of composites,RAM coatings,Heat signature reduction,weapons bay make it best 4 gen fighter flying now

 

[sancho]

F18 came that way-
that forced Dassault to rethink+combined with shutting of mirage lines-entered Rafale
When tender became 10 biilion prize - EADS and Germans steeped in.

Doubtful, because the F18Sh don't even fit in the requirement of an medium class fighter correctly and the first competition was only for lighter fighters.
As I said, Dassault replaced the M2k with the Rafale, the French say they offered the whole productionline of the M2k5 to India, but we wasn't able to take a decision and they couldn't keep the lines open. Our side say, the French suddenly rejected it, so we was forced to consider the Rafale and that obviously explains the offers of F18SH and EF later.

Don't think we will find out the truth about the change to Rafale, however, F18SH came later only.

Sancho link plz

You mean for the engine?

The 117С engine is a deep modernization of the AL-31F engine (generation 4+)

The 117С is an aircraft turbofan engine with a variable thrust nozzle of generation 4+ developed by NPO Saturn to the Sukhoi Design Bureau order for the export Su-35 fighter.

The 117С engine is a deep thrust-life modernization of the AL-31FP, which will be installed on the latest Sukhoi Su-30/Su-30MKI aircraft.

The modernized engine thrust has been increased by 16% compared to the base AL-31FP engine, and has reached 14500 kgf, the lifetime has been doubled, up to 4000 hours.

Such high parameters, on retention of the overall dimensions and weight, are attained due to application of an absolutely new high-tech low pressure compressor with increased air flow and efficiency, a new high-performance turbine of increased reliability with an improved blade cooling system and digital engine control system integrated with the aircraft control system.

The declared parameters have been confirmed in the course of the demonstrator engine bench and flight tests. A special NPO Saturn achievement is a stable and reliable operation of the engine at Mach number exceeding 2, which was obtained in the course of the demonstrator flight tests.

As for geometry and attachment points on the aircraft, the 117С engine conforms to its predecessors, generation 4 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines. This makes it possible, with slightly developed engine nacelles and equipment, to use the 117С engine for modernization of the entire aircraft fleet of previously manufactured Su-27/Su-30, operational both by the Russian and foreign Air Force.

On 19 February 2008, a new 117С-powered Su-35 aircraft successfully performed its first test flight.

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But the EW suite and 1200 module AESA is gem of an addition.
Avionics wise it is rt at top. Only drawback is design which was not buid for LO/Stealth
But still use of composites,RAM coatings,Heat signature reduction,weapons bay make it best 4 gen fighter flying now

Our Bars will be upgraded to AESA with speculated ranges up to 400Km against air targets, EWS for sure will come again from Israel and we know that the present one is one of the best, so I don't so much advantages there.
As I said before, it is an upgrade and for sure will be a good improvement in terms of RCS mainly, but fighters like Rafale and EF are often speculated with RCS below 1m2 and I highly doubt that even the internal weapon bays (which are only for AAMs, and some bombs) will bring F15 SE down to this level. The air intakes are one reason, but of course also the size difference!

Length: EF -15,96m / F15 SE - 19,43m
Wingspan: EF - 10,95m / F15 SE - 13,05m

 

[Roby]

due course of time you will hear a big news regarding mig-35

Are you talking about MRCA?

 

[DMLA]

No the evaluation is still going on, but the RFP that was send to both engine makers was for 99 + 49 optional engines, so the least number of LCA Mk2 is officially 99:

I disagree. While it is possible that the number might be that high, it is not "decided for sure". That was a part of the RFP document which requires the buyer to specify numbers so that the seller can come up with specific numbers of his own (including cost).

Also, it is quite possible that we may be looking at extra engines to cater for the entire life cycle of the aircraft (which then would include spare engines).

 

[DMLA]

Internal weapon bay would make a lot of sense to reduce RCS, but it won't be a stealth fighter like that. The fact that one of the upg capabilities will be to carry Brahmos on the centerline station, makes such weapon bays sadly not possible.
I disagree on the engine, because even on the official Saturn site it is stated that the S117 will be offered to all Su 35/Su 30 customers as upgrades and more thrust is definitely needed if it carries 2.5t Brahmos. I have doubt about SC too, because the MKI weighs more than the Su 35, but 3D TVC will be added for sure.

So new OLS, radar and engine upgrade and possibly L-band radars on the wings, to increase situational awareness, could come from Russia. I also expect new Indian and western avionics, as well es RAM coatings which is imo the most important point!

We will have to wait and see. Deep mordenizations like these cost huge amounts of money. AESA will not come cheap. Neither will new engines. Time will tell what IAF's priorities are and what they go for.

On a side note, I believe that the new order for 42 mki's (if it goes through) will give the russians an opportunity to develope blk-4 of mki with all new technologies that will eventually see its way into mki mordenization. These new birds might very well include Ibris-E PESA radar and new cockpit avionics (at the very least).

 

[Moscow]

Are you talking about MRCA?

nope ..................

 

[KEETARP]

Doubtful, because the F18Sh don't even fit in the requirement of an medium class fighter correctly and the first competition was only for lighter fighters.
As I said, Dassault replaced the M2k with the Rafale, the French say they offered the whole productionline of the M2k5 to India, but we wasn't able to take a decision and they couldn't keep the lines open. Our side say, the French suddenly rejected it, so we was forced to consider the Rafale and that obviously explains the offers of F18SH and EF later.
Don't think we will find out the truth about the change to Rafale, however, F18SH came later only.

Buddy i am giving you a link thats quite old-2005
India mulling over US F-16, F-18 proposal
Read that carefully - mark the time 2005 at start.

Now this France may offer Rafale for Mirage
IT is 2006 story

The decision to disengage the Mirage-2000-5 from participation in the IAF’s upcoming tender may have also had something to do with Washington’s unilateral offer of the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, before which Paris considered the Mirage-2000-5 a worthy opponent to the American F-16 Fighting Falcon. The perception was that matching the old Mirage family against the relatively new Super Hornet would give the Americans the technological edge in the contract and subsequent trial tests.

I clearly remember news in my mind - it was indeed 2005 - when bush called Manmohan confirming sale of f16 to pakistan that changed whole MRCA otherwise IAF would have been flying M2K-5 safely by now

 

[KEETARP]

And this article
Looking A Gift Hornet In Its Mouth
its from march 05
mirage was withdrawn in 2006.

 

[keeninterest]

AV,

1 what is the timeline (as in by when is it expected to be stated and by when does the completion take place) of the procurement for the additional 50+42?
2 will these be manufactured in india or in russia (i believe 50 would be put on fast track, which means direct procurement from russia)?
3 how many squadrons is the IAF looking for mig35, and what will the procurement timeline followed in this case?
4 what looks like the official price being quoted for mig35 (keeping in mind the price of additional 42 su30MKIs comes to US$83m)?
5 does this mean mig35 is effectively out of mmrca?


PS- Prasoon Sen Gupta did mention 320su30MKIs when he first mentioned additional 50su30MKIs, but he did leave a lot of discrepancies aound that figure, but i guess pieces are falling in their place now.

 

[desiman]

As per recent news from my friends in the MOD, the F-18 is leading in the race for the deal with many supporters from inside the ministry. The Mig-35 is highly unlikely so is the Typhoon.

 

[Kinshuk]

As per recent news from my friends in the MOD, the F-18 is leading in the race for the deal with many supporters from inside the ministry. The Mig-35 is highly unlikely so is the Typhoon.

Out of curiosity.. did you ask the reason why is that? I don't have any problem with F 18 winning. (even if I have, how does that matter)