India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets

[thebrownguy]

Out of curiosity.. did you ask the reason why is that? I don't have any problem with F 18 winning. (even if I have, how does that matter)

Well it does matter to the country. We should go for what is best for us, and not for appeasement tactics. SH come with limited ToT, plus end user restrictions. Moreover they are not a trustworthy source, we should learn from Pakistan example.
Forget this point, or even the ToT, NO WAY is the SH better than Rafale or Typhoon. Moreover these planes guarantee a longer technological life, compared to SH, who will be obselete and outdated in 15-20 years.

 

[jbond197]

You forgot the Jaguars.

OOPS, My Bad!! Sorry about that..

 

[jbond197]

Lets check your list, what India will have in 2020

1. 272 SU-30MKI ----> Yes
2. 126 MMRCA ----> Yes (may be more than 126)
3. 51 upgraded mirage ----> Yes
4. 250 PAKFA -----> No (as it will start coming only in 2017)
5. 250 LCA ---> LCA (will definitely come, not sure abtout numbers)
6. 78 mig 29 ---> Yes (may be more of the advanced version)
7. 45 mig 29K (Navy) ---> Yes
8. 100 mig27 ----> Yes (they are upgadred but by 2020, we may have 60 odd mig27)
9. Mig23 ----> No (All ready phased out)
10. Mig21 bison ---> No (will be phased out by 2020)
11. Jaguars ---> Yes (You forget to mention it.)

NSG Bro, if you check my post I din't mentioned the number of LCA, Mig 23, Mig 21 as I wasn't sure abt them.. yes, we will not have many PAKFA in 2020 but we will have the number sooner or later. I missed to include Jaguar in the list though, Sorry about that!

 

[desiman]

Out of curiosity.. did you ask the reason why is that? I don't have any problem with F 18 winning. (even if I have, how does that matter)

Well there are many reasons really without going into much detail –
• The cost of the aircraft
• The cost to function ratio
• India’s growing relationship with the United States
• MIG-35 is again Russian – spare parts is a hugeee issue believe me lol
• F-18 is a proven platform and will offer India to get their hands on American tech.
• Choosing the F-18 will open up many other door for India.
• F-18 has been exported to many countries and has performed exceedingly well everywhere. Rafale, Typhoon and Griphen lack sales to match up to the American counterparts.
• Typhoon is a credible air to air platform but its air to ground is still shady. Couple that with its huge cost in both upfront as well as maintenance and you have a good recipe for a future disaster.
• The griphen is second in the line after the F-18, I haven’t yet heard much of it from the MOD guys so I don’t know how well it stands.
• The Refale is good but cost is high and as per reports it there are some issues with the actual tender that was put in.
• F-16 is a total no go, Not only it is a old platform but also it is the mainstay of the PAF. The PAF know it inside out and it will not add anything new to the IAF as such. Except for the future f-35 sale clause nothing is really that exciting. Im sure India will get the F-35 regardless anways.
• F-18 is perfect for India’s needs and will act as a strong second in line after the MKI’s. Its low maintenance as well as its excellent track record are really helping its bid.
In regards to TOT, domestic production etc etc, details are still vague and nothing is confirmed yet. Boeing has partnered with many Indian Firm including TATA’s to set up local parts production facilities, but all those projects will only be finalized after India makes its decision. I hope I answered all the questions, Feel free to ask more.

 

[desiman]

Well it does matter to the country. We should go for what is best for us, and not for appeasement tactics. SH come with limited ToT, plus end user restrictions. Moreover they are not a trustworthy source, we should learn from Pakistan example.
Forget this point, or even the ToT, NO WAY is the SH better than Rafale or Typhoon. Moreover these planes guarantee a longer technological life, compared to SH, who will be obselete and outdated in 15-20 years.

India and Pakistan are not the same brother when it comes to arms sale. The rafale and Typhoon are still very much new and not many countries have tried them out yet. I would prefer a tested platform like the SH to these jets anyday. What makes you say that the SH is not comparable to the Rafale ? I have worked in Boeing and i must say that SH is nothing but brilliant. Its excellent maintenance track record as well as huge multirole capacity will be amazing addition to the IAF.

 

[KEETARP]

As per recent news from my friends in the MOD, the F-18 is leading in the race for the deal with many supporters from inside the ministry. The Mig-35 is highly unlikely so is the Typhoon.

You must be quite close to MOD- Bcoz revealing defence secrets amounts to offence compromising national security .
You also have contact with Sukhoi in russia(followed each and every line what you wrote in PAKfa analysis arguing Gambit) - Plz if you are middleman envolved in dealings get it done in favour of F16in - Super viper.

Dont take it as offence , i was just having little fun.
On serious note F18- is more of a strike fighter
We need something which can perfectly complement, already supreme strike capability of Su30.

 

[Hulk]

You must be quite close to MOD- Bcoz revealing defence secrets amounts to offence compromising national security .
You also have contact with Sukhoi in russia(followed each and every line what you wrote in PAKfa analysis arguing Gambit) - Plz if you are middleman envolved in dealings get it done in favour of F16in - Super viper.

Dont take it as offence , i was just having little fun.
On serious note F18- is more of a strike fighter
We need something which can perfectly complement, already supreme strike capability of Su30.

Agreed just because Pakistan has F16 does not mean we should not go for it. Some people feel Pakistan knows about that aircraft, so what, as if anything is secret these days. Plus we get more advance version then them. If we do this we will have something they have, superior version and in more number.

 

[karan.1970]

Well it does matter to the country. We should go for what is best for us, and not for appeasement tactics. SH come with limited ToT, plus end user restrictions. Moreover they are not a trustworthy source, we should learn from Pakistan example.
Forget this point, or even the ToT, NO WAY is the SH better than Rafale or Typhoon. Moreover these planes guarantee a longer technological life, compared to SH, who will be obselete and outdated in 15-20 years.

Lets not forget the basic purpose of buying war planes.. It is to safe guard our country. For doing that strategic alliances play as much if not a larger role than strong military hardware. So the selection of a product like a war plane can not be done purely on the merits of a piece of hardware.

 

[sancho]

Buddy i am giving you a link thats quite old-2005
India mulling over US F-16, F-18 proposal
Read that carefully - mark the time 2005 at start.

From this source:

The Indian Air Force has in the meanwhile made known that it was more comfortable with topline French-made Mirage 2000-V...

The Indian Air Force has already sounded its negative opinion over F-18s.
The force's top brass found the aircraft to be too heavy for its expertise and out of sync with their requirements.

That's exactly what I said, at that time of the first competition, the US might have offered it, to sell the F16s to Pakistan and make more money, but it was never in the original IAF competition and they also had no interest, only the introduction of Rafale had make the entry of F18SH and EF possible.

The decision to disengage the Mirage-2000-5 from participation in the IAF’s upcoming tender may have also had something to do with Washington’s unilateral offer of the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, before which Paris considered the Mirage-2000-5 a worthy opponent to the American F-16 Fighting Falcon. The perception was that matching the old Mirage family against the relatively new Super Hornet would give the Americans the technological edge in the contract and subsequent trial tests.

That is only the opinion of the writer, but a bit above he also says:

Considering it would take at least three-four years for a contract to actually be signed with India, Paris thinks it would be too expensive to keep the Mirage factories humming.

Think about it logically, if you are Dassault and already has similar fighters in IAF and they are more than happy with them. The biggest competitior has decided to sell F16 to PAF and is nearly out of the competition, so you are clearly the frontrunner for a $5 billion deal, why would you do the US a favour and introduce Rafale, which clearly brings a bigger competitor (the F18SH) in the competiton too?
The only logic answer imo is, what your last source also said, they simply couldn't wait any longer and had to move on with Rafale production, instead of keeping Mirage 2005 production line open without any other order.

 

[sancho]

India and Pakistan are not the same brother when it comes to arms sale. The rafale and Typhoon are still very much new and not many countries have tried them out yet. I would prefer a tested platform like the SH to these jets anyday. What makes you say that the SH is not comparable to the Rafale ? I have worked in Boeing and i must say that SH is nothing but brilliant. Its excellent maintenance track record as well as huge multirole capacity will be amazing addition to the IAF.

I think that explains why you prefer the F18SH right?

The F18SH is a good fighter for strikes and offer good techs and even would complement the MKI quiet good, but it's clearly not the best choice!

What about?

- most limited ToT
- EUM
- no source codes
- no customisation
- bigger RCS than EF and Rafale, because they was designed with low RCS from the beginning, F18SH is only an redesigned upgrade (just like Mig 35, or F15 SE)
- least maneuverable and would rely in close combat against F16 and J10, only on JHMCS and Aim9, which the F16 of PAF also has
- no commonality in IAF fleet what increases maintenance and logistic costs
- no chance as a carrier fighter for IN, because F35 is in the same competition if IN wants US weapons and F18Sh will be pretty outdated in 2018 when the carriers with catapults will arrive

 

[desiman]

You must be quite close to MOD- Bcoz revealing defence secrets amounts to offence compromising national security .
You also have contact with Sukhoi in russia(followed each and every line what you wrote in PAKfa analysis arguing Gambit) - Plz if you are middleman envolved in dealings get it done in favour of F16in - Super viper.

Dont take it as offence , i was just having little fun.
On serious note F18- is more of a strike fighter
We need something which can perfectly complement, already supreme strike capability of Su30.

This is not a defense secret buddy, defense secrets are more dangerous than this Unfortunately i am not the middleman or anything like that, but i wish i was keeping in mind the amount of money involved lol . My contacts in the MOD are solely because my Parents used to work in the MOD before we migrated to Canada. I still take advantage of his friends to get info here and there shhh don’t tell dad lol.

The F-18 is a probably one of the best multirole aircraft's in the world. Keeping in mind IAF's habit of switching aircraft roles on demand, the F-18 will be perfect for us. We need a plane to not only assist the MKI but also play the part of a second hand until the PAKFA or the MCA come through.

 

[desiman]

Agreed just because Pakistan has F16 does not mean we should not go for it. Some people feel Pakistan knows about that aircraft, so what, as if anything is secret these days. Plus we get more advance version then them. If we do this we will have something they have, superior version and in more number.

Choosing the F-16 would be by my thinking a real disaster for the mrca deal as it would offer nothing new to us. The enemy would know how to counter it efficiently and the jet itself is on its way out of the USAF. The F-16 itself is a credible jet and the block being offered to India is quite nice but its not offering anything that substantial to choose it over the F-18 which are still being inducted by the American to replace their F-14's. Again i have nothing against the F-16 but nothing going for it also.

 

[desiman]

Self Edit - duplicate

 

[desiman]

I think that explains why you prefer the F18SH right?

The F18SH is a good fighter for strikes and offer good techs and even would complement the MKI quiet good, but it's clearly not the best choice!

What about?

- most limited ToT
- EUM
- no source codes
- no customisation
- bigger RCS than EF and Rafale, because they was designed with low RCS from the beginning, F18SH is only an redesigned upgrade (just like Mig 35, or F15 SE)
- least maneuverable and would rely in close combat against F16 and J10, only on JHMCS and Aim9, which the F16 of PAF also has
- no commonality in IAF fleet what increases maintenance and logistic costs
- no chance as a carrier fighter for IN, because F35 is in the same competition if IN wants US weapons and F18Sh will be pretty outdated in 2018 when the carriers with catapults will arrive

Lol i dont prefer it becuase of that, i am just telling you guy whats being told to me.


- most limited ToT – Exact TOT details will never be revealed until the final decision comes out, I cannot answer that yet as no one how the last offer after the price negotiations will look like.
- EUM - I am sure the end user Monitoring agreements will be written specifically for India. Do you think Boeing would plan to loose the Indian Market by putting in a restrictive EUM agreement ? lol I don’t think so

- no source codes – Again too early- cannot answer.
- no customization – wrong – as quoted in defence industry daily –
“ F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet (Boeing, USA). Highly upgraded version of the F/A-18 A-D Hornet, enlarged and given new engines and avionics. Commonality between the Hornet and Super Hornet is only about 25%. Strengths include its powerful AN/APG-79 AESA radar, which has drawn significant interest from India. This radar could allow Super Hornets to play a unique role in India’s fighter fleet as versatile “quarterbacks” (or better yet, “cricket captains”) due to their radar’s performance and information sharing abilities. Other advantages include carrier capability, a very wide range of integrated weapons, a design that is proven in service and in combat, F414 engines that may also serve as the base for LCA Tejas Mk2; and complete assurance in its future upgrade spiral, given the US Navy’s commitment to it.
The existence of a dedicated electronic warfare variant as of 2009 in the EA-18G Growler may also be a potent motivator, as the growth of sophisticated air defense systems will place a growing premium on this unique capability. Last but certainly not least, this choice offers an opportunity to create an early “win” which would strengthen India’s new alliance with the USA and prove its new status in the world. After all, when clearance for the aircraft was given, no other nation had even been offered the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet.
Since then, of course, close American ally Australia has bought 24 F/A-18F Block IIs in a controversial A$ 6 billion purchase, and even taken steps to modify 12 aircraft toward EA-18G Growler status. Australia’s deployment of Super Hornets gives the platform an additional selling point in the “allied commonality” department, and Boeing’s planned $1.5 billion investment in India’s aerospace market may help deal with defense industrial offset issues. The Super Hornet’s Boeing connection adds many industrial options in the civil aircraft market as well.”

- bigger RCS than EF and Rafale, because they was designed with low RCS from the beginning, F18SH is only an redesigned upgrade (just like Mig 35, or F15 SE) – this depends on the MOD on what type of jet they want. Yes bigger RCS but also LESS cost. The MKI is also a redesigned upgrade- I don’t see anyone complaining

- least maneuverable and would rely in close combat against F16 and J10, only on JHMCS and Aim9, which the F16 of PAF also has – not true, as maneuverable as any of the others except the MIG 35. But it compensates by bringing much more to the table than that –
Boeing: F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Home

- no commonality in IAF fleet what increases maintenance and logistic costs – So is the Typhoon, Griphen, to an extent the Rafale. Building a new infrastructure will infact help the IAF increase its standards. Cost of building one is included in all tenders.

- no chance as a carrier fighter for IN, because F35 is in the same competition if IN wants US weapons and F18Sh will be pretty outdated in 2018 when the carriers with catapults will arrive
- the F-35 lollypop is the only thing exciting about the F-16 offer but keep in mind, with India’s growing buying power and influence, do you really think USA will say no to us if we offer to buy a sizeable amount. The fact of the matter is that the F-35 can be bought with or without going for the F-16. Keep in mind the F-18 operates from all major US navy carriers.

Boeing: F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Home

 

[desiman]

So lovely lol