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India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets

I dont think F16 chould be considered actually.
The reason being F16 being an outdated airframe. You can bet on its avionics, however any of these jets which come to us whould eb able to serve us for 30 years minumum.

China and India operate Su30 and bought these at the same time, so both are in the learning phase of mastering it. however pak is using it since 80s and they know better.
So you cant buy some plane where your adversary knows the plane better than you know.

Nope buddy, See total lifetime of an aircraft is at the max 40 years . You can continue to use it till 75 years thats a different matter altogether. bcoz of financial crunch.
And we got su30 in 1997-98 deal i believe that is more than 10 yers now in2010 , we have already utilized 25% of its time thats why it is up for upgrade- i dont buy that we havent mastered su30.
25 years from now IAF would be thinking abt relacing these(earlier) su30 by new jets.
And believe me if you ask any pilot- which aircraft would he like to take in battle ; his answer would be F16/F18?Mirage2k/Mig29
Reason being these aircrafts have seen all the battles US has fought around the world- and would be used if US goes supersonic against IRAN/N.KOREA.
Even F22 is only replacing earlier f15a,b models not f15e models with USAF.
Similarly f16 c,d which USAF operate are gonna serve it till 2020 and may be more. I dont see f35 coming before 2015
F35 will replace older f16 a,b which were upgraded and not block52+ version.
 
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guys let us shift this holy talk to mrca section - where it does belong??????????????????????
thnx
 
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But we can compare it with the offeres of the vendors that was reported in public and from similar competitions like Brazil.
The Rafale, the Mig and the EF are officially offered with full ToT, Gripen NG might only provide full ToT if EF is out, or the US provides agree to engine ToT, no US Gov, or Boeing/LM official has ever stated similar ammount of ToT for India, or Brazil. In Brazil the president and defense minister stated openly, that the ToT offer of F18SH was increased, but still is not comparable.


Exactly there is the problem! Not Boeing decides about ToT, EMU, or source codes, but the US Gov and they didn't even provide these things to close alleys (no source codes of F35 for UK, one of the major issus at that program now). Boeing is also ready to sell F18SH Growlers to export customers, but the US Gov won't!


Modifying with other US techs is not customising, I mean Indian, or western techs and weapons like we did with MKI.


Because it improved IAF capabilities of that time dramatically, now with AWACS all around us, low RCS is very important and that is the Achilles' heel of the MKI. Altough the F18SH will have a lower RCS than the MKI, most of the other contenders offers advantages in that area.


Can you explain how? It offers no TVC, no canards, has most likely the least t/w ratio and also the least G load:

F18SH:
Design load factor 7.6g

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf

Rafale:
Load +9g/-3.2g

Aircraft Characteristics

EF:
G'' limits +9/-3 ''g''

Eurofighter Typhoon - Design


Not exactly, the Rafale will use the same weapons all the upgraded Mirage 2000 can use, maybe even the weapon that the upgraded Jags will use, if they are European. Gripen NG is totally open, they even offered integration of Russian weapons to us, for more commonality. EF at least might have some commonality to Jags on the weapon side, but also highly rely on US weapons of course.


That's what I said, F18SH will be good enough for now, but the Indian carriers it might be meant for, come only at the end of the decade and with F35C on offer, the F18SH makes no real sense if IN wants a US fighter. But USN will replace nearly all of them with F35, which should tell us about the future of F18SH as a carrier fighter, don't you think?

Once again, I don't say F18SH in general is a bad fighter, but it is not the aircraft itself that makes it interesting, because the design is only slighty improved to the older one. The interesting parts are the US weapon pack (although PAF will have exactly the same) and the radar, or avionics, but will this be enough to buy this fighter to serve in IAF for the next 3 decades? And how can our industry improve, if we remain a simple buyer of F18SH, can't integrate indigenous developed techs and weapons, won't get useful ToT of radar, or avionics?
I think this makes the long term advantage of F18SH for us questionable or?

Sancho i agree with some of your points and disagree with some. Mainly the TOT issue. YES companies do not decide the major TOT details but keep in mind the exception we got from the NSG. The amount of money in India for the next 10 years will be a big factor for the US to take into account before they decide anything. Again the ans is long and essay style lol but this is not the thread for that. In terms of turning and maneuverability of the F-18, the F-18 is comparable to everything except the MIG-35 and to an extent the Rafale. I am a bit unsure about the Rafale as its exports have been basically nil which is never a good sign. But again three way to many questions in your post and this is not the thread for that. Please post the same post in the MRCA deal thread and i will answer it there.
 
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The F-16 is seriously a no go for many reasons, and LM know that. That is the main reason why the F-35 lollypop has been added to the deal to make it more spicy.
 
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F18SH:
Design load factor 7.6g

I believe that a boeing spokesperson made a comment recently (will try and dig the article out) where he mentioned F/A-18 being re-certified for 9g (as it is a requirement as per the RFP). Dunno how true it is though!
 
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I believe that a boeing spokesperson made a comment recently (will try and dig the article out) where he mentioned F/A-18 being re-certified for 9g (as it is a requirement as per the RFP). Dunno how true it is though!

do u have a source ? i havent heard anything
 
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To come back to the new MKIs which most likely will come directly in the upgraded form, what about the Russian ECM wingtip pods that the Su 35 has and the new Jammer, wouldn't that be good additions to MKI too?


or here at the Su 34:
807e31e22f0d6dfd8e34f0f4b5b20e37.jpg
 
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Just check this page- Quite nice reading
Sukhoi/KnAAPO Su-35BM/Su-35-1/Su-35S Flanker

Sancho any link abt new su30 being upgraded variant

I know the link, my point was shouldn't IAF order these for MKI upgrade too?
There are several reports from last year, when our defense minister and later MMS visited Russia, which say that they talked about the upgrade, but nothing is cleared yet.
 
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Well i just have a point, even though Pakistan had F 16s since eighties, they are relatively new to BVR technology. I mean the modern warfare will mostly be BVR( not proven). Also mastering this technology demands different battle strategies and tricks, which they are just developing. So saying that they have mastered the F 16,is an overstatement IMO.
ps - please do not misinterpret my post. i have not made any comment on the credibility how the pakistani pilots, who are undoubtedly amongst the finest.
 
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do u have a source ? i havent heard anything

I subscribe to Aviation Week and Space Technology. The article is from the Feb 8, 2010 issue with the piece titled "trial by fire". I have scanned the page and highlighted the portion (note: article also says that F-16 has been cleared for Probe & Drogue refuelling!). Hope this helps!

 
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To come back to the new MKIs which most likely will come directly in the upgraded form, what about the Russian ECM wingtip pods that the Su 35 has and the new Jammer, wouldn't that be good additions to MKI too?

Doesn't the mki already use Elta EL/L-8222 self-protection jammer? Or were they confined to use on Jaguars?

Added later: here are the Israeli jamming pods: http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/0/36830.pdf

Russian options which you mentioned and one additional support jammer(both high & low frequency):



KNIRTI SAP-518 EWSP pods at MAKS 2009 (© 2009, Miroslav Gyűrösi).



KNIRTI SAP-14 support jamming pod and centreline pylon on display at MAKS 2009 (© 2009, Miroslav Gyűrösi).


possible layout for mki!

Possible american solutions include:

4f6b913a549fb1b86384394afb2e613e.gif

AN/ALQ-99 (link: AN/ALQ-99 Tactical Jamming System (TJS))
(It would seem that ALQ-99 is not that useful against S-400 ADS)


AN/ALQ-218 (link: AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver)
 
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Doesn't the mki already use Elta EL/L-8222 self-protection jammer? Or were they confined to use on Jaguars?

Russian options which you mentioned and one additional support jammer(both high & low frequency):

And these are the wingtip ECM pods, of the Eurofighter:





Actually, I only saw the pods on early IAF Su 30Mks, not sure if the MKIs use them too, some sources say the MKIs have an integrated system.
However, I doubt that we will get the Growlers if F18SH wins MMRCA and even if, it might be only the Growler lite, that was proposed from Boeing, without the ALQ 99 jamning pod. That's why I find the KNIRTI SAP-14 jamming pod could be interesting for MKIs, or maybe the Israelis can offer a similar jamming pod.
 
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Let move this discussion to MRCA thread, Sancho tried once, lets paste the query there and then start replying from there, what do you say.
 
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