India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[GORKHALI]

Rafale's Multirole Capability

French air force and navy Rafale F3 combat aircraft are touted as true “omnirole fighters.” Military officials say there are multirole fighters that conduct reconnaissance, air-to-air combat, air-to-surface attack or deterrence, but only one at a time. The F3 can perform all in a single mission, they maintain.

Stephane Reb, Rafale program manager at French procurement agency DGA, explains: “The intention from the outset [with the F3] was to have a joint and omnirole fighter to replace all other aircraft in the air force.”

Indeed, when it comes to air-to-air combat, he says the F3 takes the place of the Mirage 2000 RDI and Mirage 2000-5. For deterrence it replaces the Mirage 2000N. In air-to-ground attack it replaces the SEM, Mirage 2000D and Mirage F1 CT, and for reconnaissance the Mirage F1 CR. “By 2015 we will have only the Rafale and Mirage 2000D in our fleet, and by 2030 only the Rafale,” Reb says.

Dassault Aviation was from the outset tasked with designing one plane that could fulfill all of these roles and remain in service for 40-50 years. The F1 version, delivered to the Aeronavale in 2004, only had air-to-air combat capability. The F2, delivered to the air force at St. Dizier in 2006, introduced the Scalp cruise missile, AASM air-to-surface missile, IR MICA infrared air-to-air missile, NATO L16 data link and front-sensor optronics.

The F3, first delivered in July 2008, is the F2 plus the ASMP-A advanced air-to-surface medium-range nuclear missile, Exocet AM39 antiship missile and RECO-NG (Areos) reconnaissance pod. “Two Rafales are equivalent to two Mirage 2000-5 fighters and four Mirage 2000D aircraft with respect to payload,” says a senior Rafale pilot identified for security reasons as Junior. In operations over Libya, using fewer aircraft reduces the complexity of the raids and the refuelling plan. (For a story on AWACS air operations over Libya, see p. 21.)

The F3-04T version currently under development is the F3 plus active, electronically scanned array radar (with capabilities that include detection of low-signature targets), a new-generation missile-warning system and front-sensor optronics with improved technology.

The 10 F1 versions already delivered will be upgraded to F3, Reb says. The F2s have already been upgraded.

France’s strategy is to stretch out Rafale production, at the record slow rate of one aircraft per month, while fully funding upgrades and seeking export contracts. Production is secured until 2019. The 100th aircraft is due for delivery in September. Ultimately, the air force will have 228 Rafale B (twin-seat) and C (single-seat) aircraft, while the navy will have 58 single-seat aircraft.

The DGA says that production of the aircraft will continue to 2025, when the mid-life upgrade begins. Until then, Reb says the aircraft’s architecture will allow it to remain at a “top level of performance and interoperability” without major hardware changes.

Even improvements to the M88 engine to turn it into the M88‑4E—with lower maintenance of key parts and a 30% increase in the life of the high-pressure turbine—can be introduced piece-by-piece. The first M88-4E will be delivered in November and be the base configuration of the Rafale engine.

Pilots flying the Rafale over Libya and Afghanistan are pleased with its performance. Junior says the Rafale “allows the observation, orientation, decision and action loop to be drastically reduced because we can act in the cockpit.” He notes that “over Libya we’re omnirole: While your recce is working by itself, you’re scanning the skies and sending pictures to other aircraft. With one trigger pull of the AASM you can hit six targets simultaneously, in all weather and day or night.”

Junior says the cockpit displays are intuitive. “It takes a Mirage pilot just 30 minutes to understand them the first time,” he remarks, adding that “you can select what information you receive. I like a relatively silent cockpit, which I can have and yet be fully part of the network-centric warfare.”

Rafale's Multirole Capability | AVIATION WEEK

 

[RPK]

The Hindu : News / National : Typhoon outdid Rafale in Libya, claims four-nation consortium

It has superior turnaround time, bombing capabilities'

With just a fortnight left for the opening of commercial bids for the Indian military's biggest tender, four European nations — the U.K., Germany, Spain and Italy — bidding jointly for 126 fighter planes promised an open door technology transfer and emphasised the superiority of their Eurofighter Typhoon over its sole competitor, the French Rafale, during ongoing operations in Libya.

“The technology transfer is very attractive,” said senior officers of the four-nation consortium, while senior Royal Air Force officers, sidestepping the morality issue of bombing a sovereign country, claimed that the Typhoon had outperformed the Rafale in Libya.

Asked whether the source code — a bone of contention with the Americans who were knocked out of the competition earlier this year along with the Russians and the Swedish — would also be transferred, they said: “Everything is on the table.''

India needs these planes to shore up its falling squadron levels brought about by the retirement of the MiG series but has displayed little desperation, preferring to evaluate both bids on merit. The commercial bids open on August 1 and available information indicates that the French bid is likely to beat the four-country offer on price. It can restore this imbalance by lower life cycle maintenance costs and higher operational availability.

“There is very strong will to transfer all possible technology,” said senior officials, while detailing the technologies that would accrue to the Indian Air Force if New Delhi opted for the Eurofighter's Typhoon. These include Carbon airframe, mission system capabilities and advanced avionics, though the kind of radar sought by the IAF is still undergoing development.

British pilots and their commanding officers conducting operations over Libya against the regime of President Muammar Qadhafi displayed statistics to prove that out of the 1,000-plus sorties flown by Rafale, Typhoon and Tornado, it was the offering by their home country to India that was superior in terms of turnaround time and bombing capabilities.

While Saturday's air display at the international air show in this decidedly British rural setting was washed out by the unpredictable weather, there was no let-up in the attempts to hard sell their fighter. All the familiar arguments about precision strike capabilities being trotted out by the American-West European combine since Gulf War-I were also laid out — “we are denying ground to Qadhafi's forces; people are being protected and there are few civilian casualties.”

The approximately $11-billion tender would be a make-or-break affair for both the French and the four European nation team-up. So far 280 Typhoons have been delivered to six countries, said officials trying to make the point that the French Rafale has had no international customers. Though the number of countries opting for the fighter appears impressive, the fact is four of the customers are the ones who are co-producing the planes. That leaves the other two — tiny Austria which does not want some of the features – and the cash rich Saudi Arabia, a perennial customer for Western offerings.

“Our strategic vision is to work in partnership with the Indian industry, to develop and manufacture in India, to meet the requirements of the Indian security forces. This is directly in line with the Indian government's policy to increase self-sufficiency in the defence and security technology/industry,” maintained officials aligned with the companies that have joined hands to produce the Eurofighter Typhoon.

They also sought to underline the previous relationships with India stretching back to the early days of the Indian Air Force — Spitfires, Hawker Hunters, Jaguars, Canberras, Gnats, Sea Harriers (Navy) and Hawk advanced jet trainers. The French have their compelling arguments to offer since they too have been intimately connected with the Indian military.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony has repeatedly said the merits of the plane rather than geo-political considerations will be the prime consideration. The coming days will see India being tested as the two sides step up pressure for what is said to be the mother of all defence deals as far as India is concerned.

 

[notorious_eagle]

If India selects any one of these by end of this year then how long they will get 126 MMRCA,
Keeping in mind that both EF & Rafale dont have AESA Radars.

I think by the time the order is operationalized, Rafale will have an active AESA Radar. There is also always the option of upgrading it later as the technology matures, nothing wrong with that if the French can convince the Indians that their AESA will be capable. Its quite obvious now that the IAF will go with the Rafale due to its superior Multi Role Capabilities, EF is more geared towards Air Superiority which the IAF does not need because they have assigned SU30MKI and MIG29 to perform that role.

They need a ground pounder that can carry a massive payload, drop it with precision on its assigned target and fight its way out if it has to. Rafale clearly is the better choice when it come to carrying out A2G roles. Also my belief is strengthened as the IAF has signed the deal to upgrade the M2K's, commonality of logistics will result in reduced costs. Thus, i belief the Rafale will win the competition. I feel bad for the EF project, a great fighter but too expensive, without Indian funding i dont believe the project will go any forward as none of the partner countries are willing to provide additional funding.

@Sancho. You have done a great job on this thread bud, i believe Dassault should hire you as their lead PR Manager

 

[angeldemon_007]

I think by the time the order is operationalized, Rafale will have an active AESA Radar.

Thales already delivered first aesa

 

[sathya]

Eurofighter very touchy after Rafale team claims superiority

It seems that the trench war has begun between the Eurofigter and Rafale teams. The Eurofighter web site is trying to discard the Dassault and Thales claims stating that the European consortium was a "cooperation of incompetencies" and that the Selex AESA radar was 5 years behind the RBE-2 AESA :

"With Thales claiming to be five years more advanced in AESA radar technology than its competitors with its future Rafale radar and with Dassault claiming that the Eurofighter programme is an example of incompetencies, the French look to be on the defensive."

Well, reading this I would rather say that the Rafale team is on the offensive. Anyway, if it is true that Dassault's claim is rather crual, there is nevertheless some truth in it. Indeed, it is a known fact that the Eurofighter project has been delayed by serious technical issues due to the fact that each company involved wanted workshare on technologies they did not master. As a result, the program is very late and more expensive than the Rafale despite a much larger development team and a higher production rate.

As for the Thales statement, The first RBE-2 production radar has been delivered in 2010 and the first production Captor-E is now expected in 2014 if there is no delay. So that's, at minimum, a 4 years gap (may be not technology wise but at least in term of availability for the export market). Ok, that's not 5 years, but not far from it nevertheless. In fact the Eurofighter team is now in a hurry to field this new radar in order to keep the gap with the RBE-2 as small as possible because any delay will be seen a major setback by export customers.

The next paragraph is an attempt to boast about the Eurofighter ecomical achievement while in fact the figures tell more about how slow and inefficient the program has been compared to the Rafale :

"For a programme like Eurofighter which has a huge economic impact in the four partner nations with 100,000 long-term jobs secured, 400 large, medium and small companies participating in the programme, 280 aircraft delivered (just six less than the total number of Rafale planned - but not ordered yet – and to be produced in total!) from a planned 707, six air force customers included two export nations, in-service in 16 units across Europe, Asia and South America, 120,000 flying hours flown, and total operational and combat proven as multi-role platform, these claims by the French look to be more a sign of weakness than of strength"
The "280 aircrafts delivered" statement is interesting because that's in fact a weakness when you consider that there are 4 assembly lines. So, that's an average of 70 planes per assembly line which is 30% less than the Rafale assembly line that has produced more than 100 aircrafts.
Then there is the wild assumption that 707 eurofighters will be ordered and produced. The reality is less shinny when all the partners nations are reducing their orders or using some of their batch as a reserve for export customers.
I will not come back on the boasting about the Eurofighter chassing sea gulls in the Falklands (South america units), nor will I smile to the "combat proven and total operational multirole platform" claim which seems a bit exaggerated for a plane that has merely demonstrated timid LGB strike capabilities. So much Eurofigters (remember, 280) in service but so few actual operational usefulness (what about stand off strike, Sead and recce capabilities ?) ...
Eventually, such a limited achievement can only be considered as a disappointment for a workforce that large (remember, 100,000 jobs, 400 companies).

The last sentence is precious :
"So, no JSF for India, no marketing leading radar for Thales and no satisfaction for a programme like the Rafale that should concentrate on delivering a better return to the French taxpayer than on attacking its competitors."

Right, no JSF for India, but JSF for UK and Italy to fill the eurofighter capability gaps.
The French taxpayer is most probably very pleased with an aircraft that can conduct all missions, today, even from an aircraft carrier and during the first day of a conflict.

 

[sancho]

It has superior turnaround time, bombing capabilities

That's actually hilarious, when we keep in mind tha the EF was rushed into the Libyan strike role only for PR reasons and even RAF pilots confirmed that it needs support from the older Tornados for laser guidance, or that they are more useful in strikes than the EF, because of more variety of weapons.
Not to forget that the EFs carrying only a single BVR missile, if at all, which means they need dedicated escorts, while Rafale is flying without escorts, or any other support since day 1!

@Sancho. You have done a great job on this thread bud, i believe Dassault should hire you as their lead PR Manager

Thanks, but I just want the best fighter for our forces, if the EF would be more capable and worth the high costs, I would probably support it and as I often stated, if they had offered us the same partnership deal 10 years ago, I would have prefered EF over Rafale and even MKI!
However, that was then, this is now and from our requirements today, Rafale is the best choice!

 

[Storm Force]

Notorius is right RAFALE will win the MMRCA

The indians orginally wanted 126 mirage2000 anyway back in 2002 WHEN france withdraw future production of mirage2000 in favour of the new soon to arrive rafale.

Also i believe the french are helping with the KAVERI engine project even more future commonality.

OVER ALL 126 RAFAELS will be over $4 billion cheaper in total cost too.

 

[DacterSaab]

Not to forget that the EFs carrying only a single BVR missile, if at all, which means they need dedicated escorts.

Thanks, but I just want the best fighter for our forces, if the EF would be more capable and worth the high costs, I would probably support it and as I often stated, if they had offered us the same partnership deal 10 years ago, I would have prefered EF over Rafale and even MKI!
However, that was then, this is now and from our requirements today, Rafale is the best choice!

Sancho i'm not convinced about EFT requiring a dedicated escort for strike roles. we must remember that these loadouts are choice of the user air force and modifiable according to need by alternating the subsequent no. of weapons carried as they feel is demand of the situation also EFT and Rafael might as well have flown without any BVR missiles in Libya would have hardly made a difference the defense of our country is much more complicated as we are outnumbered heavily if faced by a two front war from both east and west although the north will have to be our most heavily garissoned position. In such condition we will require custom loadouts with weapons of different origins in order to maintain unpredictability. Even previously our air force had cleared some Russian missile to be fired from some western jet something we must have managed ourselves specially cause Russia wont wanna give west a look at it's missile and west wouldn't want Russia to have a look at it's jet and as our indigenous weapons develop they will be integrated into our whole fleet I hope u see what i mean.

We all want best fighter for our forces however our requirements today are getting far more diverse than they were ever before there are things you and I can't even comprehend that are playing a part in the picture specially when such huge global powers, World's largest armed forces, world's major technological giants, leading defense pioneers and huge pile of cash are concerned not to mention careers of 10s of thousands of workers over a period of more than 2 decades it's only obvious what we know is only the trailer not the whole movie and there's nothing we can do to choose except hope that our defense forces/analysts/strategists/big-shots and god knows what not manage to choose what is best for us. It should be remembered that no matter how capable unless these planes are forming the integral parts of our defense system they are useless.

for USAF A2G is the primary requirement mainly because it doesn't have any significant chances of aerial intrusion into it's sovereign boundaries due lack of major adversary while for the Europeans A2G remains secondary as they want these to be in air-superiority roles cause they getting F-35 which is 70% A2G 30% A2A and to defend against Russian intrusion where they are outnumbered so depending on our doctrine we may need primary A2A capabilities depending on us being outnumbered or complete multirole capabilities cause we got a huge Infantry to support as well but definitely not A2G capabilities (as can be seen in Chinese aircraft procurement) so it's actually depending on our armed forces which is more suitable to them.

Also this is India we're talking about brother so I wouldn't be surprised if EFT wins the contract but before any deliveries are made finance ministry cancels the deal and buys MiG-35s stating cost factors and increased no. of required jets by IAF due to long delay in the procurement sice last the no. of required aircraft was estimated.

 

[GORKHALI]

Even Eurofighter Got Airbrakes ,similar to SU 30mki

 

[sancho]

Sancho i'm not convinced about EFT requiring a dedicated escort for strike roles. we must remember that these loadouts are choice of the user air force and modifiable according to need by alternating the subsequent no...

Normally it shouldn't, but the fact is, in the strikes in Libya EFs always carried only 2 x WVR missiles and none, or just a single BVR missile! In Air superiority roles instead, they carrierd 4 x WVR and 4 x BVR missiles, which was the highest missile load of all allied fighters. So if they don't think there is a thread, why did they used that much missiles in the one role, while very limited only in the other?
Also all other allied multi role fighters like F16s, F18, Mirage 2000-9, Gripen and of course Rafale are still flying with normal AAM load (at least 2 + 2 AAMs) in strike, or recon roles.

We all want best fighter for our forces however our requirements today are getting far more diverse than they were ever before there are things...

Not for the airforce! Their requirements are still the same, the only point that changed from MRCA compoetition to M-MRCA competition is the weight class, all other requirements that are important now are from MoD/GoI. IAF would have been more than happy with Mirage 2000-5s, but MoD/GoI aimed higher and saw that this is a chance to get more out of the deal, however we know quiet well what IAF wants:

Ex Indian Air Force Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi major:

In a generic sense, we want a medium weight, multi role combat aircraft that can undertake air defence, ground attack, maritime attack (anti-ship) and reconnaissance roles with ease.

We want the aircraft to have adequately long range and endurance to meet our operational requirements. Extension of range through air-to-air refueling is also desired. Ease of maintenance and low life cycle costs would form part of the selection criteria

Air Chief Naik on the roles of MMRCAs in the IAF fleet:

The larger aircraft, i.e. FGFA and SU 30 would focus on Air Dominance and specialise in similar roles in long ranges over land and sea, while the MRCAs would do a variety of medium-range and tactical roles. These assets would be capable of all weather, day and night attack with adequate self-protection capability…these assets would be immensely capable and are not going to be confined to the strictly stereotyped roles. They would carry out a number of roles in the same mission.”

Even A.J. Tellis analysed the IAF requirments like this:

The operational context in Southern Asia elaborated above suggests that the MMRCA candidate selected by the IAF will have to be an utterly versatile platform that earns the title of “multi-role” precisely because that attribute will be at a premium in future subcontinental conflicts. It must be able to flexibly shift from air combat to ground attack operations during the day, night, or adverse weather because such dexterity will be essential for success in the counterair mission alone. In this context, the ideal aircraft would be one that possesses a low radar cross-section, deploys advanced sensors and self-protection suites, carries a heavy weapons load consisting of both long-range AAMs and diverse precision anti-surface weaponry, and possesses superior agility, endurance, and combat effectiveness. Since the air-to-ground role thus becomes virtually conjoint with the air-to-air requirement where the MMRCA is concerned, the six contenders should be evaluated according to their effectiveness in both missions...

IAF does not need just another A2A fighter, because that's what MKI (with upgrades) and FGFA are meant for and where they will be even superior to both MMRCA finalists. The MMRCA is meant to fit into the IAF fleet and complementing the existing and coming fighters in all roles, be it A2A next to MKI/FGFA on the upper end, or LCA, Mig 21 Bisons, Mirage 2000, or Mig 29 on the mid and lower end. Just like it should complement the IAF strike capability, be it with MKI on the heavy side, or Mig 29SMT, Mirage 2000-5, upgraded Jags and Tejas on the mid and lower side (will make a post on that later too).

The fact is, at the current stage and with the funded and cleared upgrades for both fighters, the Rafale is the only one that fulfils these requirements, because was meant from the start to be that versatile and capable in all roles. EF has the potential to do the same, but only with more time and especially money invested in further upgrades, while it's advanatges are mainly in fields that are already covered by MKI and FGFA in future.

 

[Jon Snow]

@ sancho - everybody is talking about price of eft, but going by rafale's uae deal the price the french are asking is 200+ mill per plane (9 billion euros for 62 planes)...... Is there a reason behind this highly inflated price or since this is the first time rafale is being exported so this is the first reliable source for price and earlier sources were wrong?

 

[sancho]

Even Eurofighter Got Airbrakes ,similar to SU 30mki

To take away the question why Rafale don't has air brakes:

1- An affordable high-tech fighter

A reliable and easily maintainable fighter invariably translates into considerably lower maintenance costs, such as for the RAFALE...

The decision to eliminate the complex systems from the early design phase (no airbrake, fixed air intakes, electrical generation using a variable frequency totally free of the fragile parts of alternators currently fitted on other aircraft, a fixed refuelling probe avoiding retraction problems, etc) ensures maintenance needs reduction, in terms of spares, maintenance man hours and support equipment.

Low operating costs

 

[SpArK]

@ sancho - everybody is talking about price of eft, but going by rafale's uae deal the price the french are asking is 200+ mill per plane (9 billion euros for 62 planes)...... Is there a reason behind this highly inflated price or since this is the first time rafale is being exported so this is the first reliable source for price and earlier sources were wrong?

The winner will be of the lowest price or L1 as said in the rule . If Rafale's overall price is high EFT will win. Its as simple as that.

 

[GORKHALI]

To take away the question why Rafale don't has air brakes:



Low operating costs

Thank you Sancho ji,but i want retractable Fuel Pod as not only it decrease RCS due to clean configration but it also increases pilot overview.Heck!even our desi jet Tejas mk2 planning to get one...

 

[SpArK]

Thank you Sancho ji,but i want retractable Fuel Pod as not only it decrease RCS due to clean configration but it also increases pilot overview.Heck!even our desi jet Tejas mk2 planning to get one...

I dont think its not a big issue. If requested it can be done.