India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[sancho]

@ sancho - everybody is talking about price of eft, but going by rafale's uae deal the price the french are asking is 200+ mill per plane (9 billion euros for 62 planes)...... Is there a reason behind this highly inflated price or since this is the first time rafale is being exported so this is the first reliable source for price and earlier sources were wrong?

Hi, wanted to reply to you before on that, but was pretty busy this week and didn't found the thread anymore. If you want to compare costs of each fighter, you have to take the flyaway cost, because that includes only the cost for the base fighter, engines, radar and avionics, which should be mainly the same be it for the F3+ that France ordered, or the F3+ that is on offer in India, Brazil, or Swiss.
The cost you are refering to, are the system costs for the UAE version, which includes training, spares... for a specific lifecycle and any customer calculates that differently. Also we know that the UAE wants several changes on their version, which makes the fighter more costly as well, but the most important point is, you calculated the unit cost for Rafale from the total cost of their procurement (60 fighters, the Mirage are 62), which is not correct, because the total cost is always dependent on the number of fighters a country procures!
For example the Australian air force procured 24 x Super Hornets for a total cost of $6 billion australian dollars, by that time around $4.6 million US dollars. That means that each fighter costs around $191 US dollars totally, but the flyway price of the base F18SH is only between $55 and 70 million each.
Similarly, 85 Gripen NG was offered to the Netherlands for a total cost of around $7.6 billions in 2008, which makes around $89 millions per unit, but the flyaway cost is between $45 and 50 millions only.

For India with an order of at least 126 fighters, the flyway costs will be mainly the same, but the system cost will be decided by the number we order and the additional costs we add for training, spares...and of course the licence production that will make it more costly as well. The fact that we shortlisted the 2 most expensive fighters, but also those that offers the most ToT and industrial benefits, tells us that we are fine with paying more per unit, if we get much benefits for our industry in return as well. But the cost, ToT and offset negotiations won't be that easy!

When you compare just the reported flyaway costs, it should be like this:

Gripen NG (E/F) - $45 to 50 millions
F18SH for USN - $55 to 70 millions
Rafale for French forces - $90 millions for the air force version
EF T3A for EF partners - $118 millions

The costs for Rafale and EF includes European taxes that should not be added at our costs and are calculated at todays exchange rates, but the EF on offer for us is the T3B, which should be even costlier.

 

[GORKHALI]

I dont think its not a big issue. If requested it can be done.

Yea!!Sparky there are some more in my list..
1>Powerful engine M88-4 eco core and replacement by Kaveri in near future option.
2>Full TOT with permanent licence to produce and upgrade just like Jaguar .
3>As i mentioned in above post..

 

[Ajaxpaul]

 

[sancho]

Thank you Sancho ji,but i want retractable Fuel Pod as not only it decrease RCS due to clean configration but it also increases pilot overview.Heck!even our desi jet Tejas mk2 planning to get one...

No, the MK1 gets a fixed refuelling probe and the question is, how much advantage it brings in terms of RCS, when you carry way bigger fuel tanks, or weapons externally anyway. For stealth fighters, or fighters with internal weapon bays it is a must have for sure, but for anything else?

 

[SpArK]

Yea!!Sparky there are some more in my list..
1>Powerful engine M88-4 eco core and replacement by Kaveri in near future option.
2>Full TOT with permanent licence to produce and upgrade just like Jaguar .
3>As i mentioned in above post..

I even want external weapons pod like the F-18 road map ..

 

[Ajaxpaul]

 

[Ajaxpaul]

 

[Ajaxpaul]

 

[Ajaxpaul]

This is inside Charle-de-gaulle

 

[sancho]

I even want external weapons pod like the F-18 road map ..

Under development afaik, but will need time for sure. My wishlist if we select Rafale would be:

- 90 to 100 kN Kaveri - Snecma engine for licence produced Rafales and further LCA MK2s. With full ToT, IP rights and the freedom to upgrade them alone to our needs without French approval (btw, if there is already a JV for TVC with them for LCA and Kaveri engine, we could add it later for Rafale too)

- CFTs, for more range in strike roles, but mainly for lower RCS, more endurance in A2A roles, while the reduced drag should increase the (SC) speed as well

- Topsight, or Sagem Gerfaut HMS

- integration of Damocles XF into the lower side of the nose (instead of the FSO-TV Channel), for A2A/A2G visual identification and A2G weapon guidance, similar to EOTS in F35, while the FSO IRST channel should remain on the upper side.

That's it for the short term, long term coops, could include integration of Indian weapons, co-developments on specialised SEAD, or extended range versions of AASM, GaN AESA radar with side arrays, possibly a common new IR missile, together with the UK (could be combined with the Maitri SAM co-development)

 

[Ajaxpaul]

Rafale C

snecma M88-2 engine.

 

[Jon Snow]

Hi, wanted to reply to you before on that, but was pretty busy this week and didn't found the thread anymore. If you want to compare costs of each fighter, you have to take the flyaway cost, because that includes only the cost for the base fighter, engines, radar and avionics, which should be mainly the same be it for the F3+ that France ordered, or the F3+ that is on offer in India, Brazil, or Swiss.
The cost you are refering to, are the system costs for the UAE version, which includes training, spares... for a specific lifecycle and any customer calculates that differently. Also we know that the UAE wants several changes on their version, which makes the fighter more costly as well, but the most important point is, you calculated the unit cost for Rafale from the total cost of their procurement (60 fighters, the Mirage are 62), which is not correct, because the total cost is always dependent on the number of fighters a country procures!
For example the Australian air force procured 24 x Super Hornets for a total cost of $6 billion australian dollars, by that time around $4.6 million US dollars. That means that each fighter costs around $191 US dollars totally, but the flyway price of the base F18SH is only between $55 and 70 million each.
Similarly, 85 Gripen NG was offered to the Netherlands for a total cost of around $7.6 billions in 2008, which makes around $89 millions per unit, but the flyaway cost is between $45 and 50 millions only.

For India with an order of at least 126 fighters, the flyway costs will be mainly the same, but the system cost will be decided by the number we order and the additional costs we add for training, spares...and of course the licence production that will make it more costly as well. The fact that we shortlisted the 2 most expensive fighters, but also those that offers the most ToT and industrial benefits, tells us that we are fine with paying more per unit, if we get much benefits for our industry in return as well. But the cost, ToT and offset negotiations won't be that easy!

When you compare just the reported flyaway costs, it should be like this:

Gripen NG (E/F) - $45 to 50 millions
F18SH for USN - $55 to 70 millions
Rafale for French forces - $90 millions for the air force version
EF T3A for EF partners - $118 millions

The costs for Rafale and EF includes European taxes that should not be added at our costs and are calculated at todays exchange rates, but the EF on offer for us is the T3B, which should be even costlier.

thanks - been wanting to clear that up for quite some time now

 

[Abingdonboy]

Does anyone know if selected will either plane come with a HMDS as STANDARD, right from day one in IAF service? As I don't know if it was part ofmthe initial RFI critera or a later contractual obligation. Also as far as I know the EFT has offered this to IAF:
Eurofighter offers 'Star Wars' helmet to IAF | StratPost

When would this be selected? After delivery to IAF or after being selected by IAF (September hopefully). And AKAIK the Rafele doesn't have a HMDS so are there plans by Dassult for one in the future? Or could other ones like TOPSIGHT-I be integrated onto it like upgraded IAF MIRAGES will have (also Dassualt).

And any ideas when the full list of offering for each plane (Radars, weapons, avionics etc) will be released to see what exactly IAF will be receiving?

 

[anathema]

Under development afaik, but will need time for sure. My wishlist if we select Rafale would be:

- 90 to 100 kN Kaveri - Snecma engine for licence produced Rafales and further LCA MK2s. With full ToT, IP rights and the freedom to upgrade them alone to our needs without French approval (btw, if there is already a JV for TVC with them for LCA and Kaveri engine, we could add it later for Rafale too)

- CFTs, for more range in strike roles, but mainly for lower RCS, more endurance in A2A roles, while the reduced drag should increase the (SC) speed as well

- Topsight, or Sagem Gerfaut HMS

- integration of Damocles XF into the lower side of the nose (instead of the FSO-TV Channel), for A2A/A2G visual identification and A2G weapon guidance, similar to EOTS in F35, while the FSO IRST channel should remain on the upper side.

That's it for the short term, long term coops, could include integration of Indian weapons, co-developments on specialised SEAD, or extended range versions of AASM, GaN AESA radar with side arrays, possibly a common new IR missile, together with the UK (could be combined with the Maitri SAM co-development)

Sancho,

Its really surprising...French never integrated HMS for Rafale...wonder why that is ....is it because Spectra helps in cueing the missiles to their target...significantly reducing need for an HMS ?

 

[anathema]

How do they take this damn shots.... ...i hardly doubt if they will be pointing camera at their own face and say cheese...