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India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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That canards have resemblence with whisker of catfish.. i have noticed same..

soeren-kern-eurofighter-1.jpg

The Typhoons refueling probe is too close to the control canard, the refueling basket has been known to strike the aircraft in difficult flying conditions created by the wake of a much larger jet.


I suspect Typhoon pilots have to be especially careful while tanking.
 
U.S. Industry Loses Big in India: Is ITAR to Blame?



Defense contractors and industry experts are trying to come to grips with India’s decision to exclude The Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin Corp. from its $11 billion competition for a new fighter jet.

No specific rationale has yet been given by the Indian government for its determination to jettison Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed F-16 and Saab’s Gripen fighters, and proceed with a head-to-head contest only between two European offers — the Eurofighter and the Dassault Rafale.

“Companies are very concerned about the logic for the decision,” said a U.S. industry source. “There’s a bit of puzzlement.”

India's decision was very surprising, says Tom Captain, vice chairman of global and U.S. aerospace and defense leader at Deloitte LLP. If the selection was based on technical merits, "It is difficult to explain how those two very capable aircraft were eliminated."



In the absence of factual information about how the selection was made, speculation is growing that restrictive U.S. export policies may have played a significant role in India’s evaluation of fighter jet candidates. Analysts had predicted that at least one of the two U.S. contenders would have the inside track. U.S. technology is considered more advanced, and more coveted by rising powers such as India. President Obama also raised the stakes by personally making a pitch on behalf of U.S. industry to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during his visit to India. He also sent Singh a letter reinforcing the importance of India’s fighter program to the Obama administration. India is expected to buy up to 200 new aircraft.

“We feel that our products are the best possible available,” said the industry source.”

India is projected to spend $80 billion on new weapons and space systems over the next five years. It’s only a small fraction of what the United States spends, but the industry still regards it as a promising region where, once you get a foot in the door, opportunities could blossom.

Defense industry analyst Byron Callan contends that “technology transfer was a major consideration in this competition.”

Callan presumes that the U.S. government was “unwilling to see key AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar and other avionics and electronic warfare technology made available at the level India wanted,” Callan writes in a memo to industry investors. “Technology transfer has also been a key consideration in Brazil’s FX fighter competition which has been delayed.”

One issue to watch as a result of this decision, says Callan, is “whether the U.S. further relaxes defense technology export restrictions in order to keep domestic production lines open.” This is a major concern for U.S. manufacturers as Pentagon spending begins to contract next year. In the past, Callan says, “when the U.S. restrained or reduced its defense spending, policy shifted to exporting advanced weapons to strategic partners.”

He notes that F/A-18 production “may still run through the end of this decade based on U.S. orders and from countries that had hoped for F-35s and who operate earlier-generation F/A-18s.” The longevity of the F-16, meanwhile, “hinges on its ability to win in niche markets in the Middle East, but it is less relevant to Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman (which makes the radar) with F-35 and the new bomber program ramping up.”



For Boeing, losing India’s sales is a big blow because it needs foreign sales to keep the F/A-18 line open beyond the coming decade, unlike Lockheed, which has a long-term lifeline in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter.

“It will be interesting to see what India does with combat fighter technology acquired from either Dassault or EADS and BAE Systems, and engine companies as well,” Callan writes.

Larry Christensen, an export controls attorney at Miller & Chevalier, in Washington, D.C., believes the Indian decision will have lasting implications for U.S. industry, even though he says he has not seen any proof that India’s choice was influenced by ITAR, the International Traffic in Arms Regulations that restrict exports of sensitive U.S. technology.

The fact that an emerging power such as India would snub U.S. advanced weaponry offers further evidence that the current export control system — which dates back to the Cold War — has outlived its effectiveness, Christensen says. “The U.S. government cannot repeal the laws of economics,” he says. As the United States denies access to some of its best technology, it leaves a market void that, sooner or later, another country will fill. “When that happens, the U.S. export control policy of denial, or policy of heavy restrictions, become ineffective” for the purposes of barring potential enemies access to advanced weaponry, he says.

It is conceivable that India concluded that U.S. restrictions on technology sharing are not worth the hassle, Christensen suggests. Although the United States wanted India to buy its fighter jets, it was “putting strings on those sales” that would have curtailed India’s ability to upgrade components, software or sensors, or collaborate with other countries, he says. If India had picked a U.S. aircraft, ITAR would have "restricted them in their ability to move forward with that platform.”

On a smaller scale, the same problem affects U.S. suppliers of less flashy products such as surveillance, law-enforcement and border protection technology, says Christensen. “I know small firms that feel the pain of commercial customers saying that they like the U.S. product but they can’t live with the restrictions and the overhead that goes with ITAR controls.”

The consequences for U.S. competitiveness are significant, he says. “The market is changing. Other countries are developing good technology.” The time has passed when only the U.S., U.K., France or Germany were viable supplies of advanced hardware, he adds. “Technology is now available from Russia, China and Israel, countries that are tend to place fewer restrictions” on transfers.

Christensen points out that the Obama administration is taking meaningful steps to reforming ITAR to boost U.S. industry. “I believe that there is significant movement,” he says. Hundreds of government officials currently are busy redrafting regulations,” he says. “It’s a long arduous task, and I’m glad they’re taking the time to do it right.”

Despite the Indian loss, U.S. arms are still hot sellers. The Pentagon is projecting arms sales to foreign buyers to exceed $46 billion in fiscal year 2011. Demand for U.S. weaponry is “higher than ever,” according to Richard A. Genaille Jr., deputy director of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency. DSCA currently oversees a $330 billion portfolio of foreign military sales to 220 countries and international organizations.

At an industry conference in April, Genaille discussed efforts by the administration to increase foreign military sales as a means to court allies and boost Third World countries’ internal security. The goal is to revamp how the U.S. government manages international arms sales so it can be more “anticipatory” of future needs and more responsive to foreign allies’ requests.

The Obama administration, which regards weapon exports as a vehicle for bolstering the U.S. economy, believes that current methods for managing arms sales are too reactive, rather than proactive, he said. “It’s hard to be responsive when our system is geared to wait for a ‘letter of request’ from a country and then take action.”


U.S. Industry Loses Big in India: Is ITAR to Blame? - Blog
 
India did a gr8 job by not choosing American planes,
lessons for Pakistan, the way india hit at the Us defence establishment is a gr8 article. 21st century we can hurt our enemy without war....
 
BBC News - India chooses European fighters over US rivals

India chooses European fighters over US rivals


India has shortlisted two European fighters and ruled out two US rivals for a key $11bn military contract.

The Indian defence ministry picked the pan-European Eurofighter and France-based Dessault's Rafale ahead of jets made by Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

The US ambassador in India said the US was "deeply disappointed" by the news.

President Barack Obama had personally lobbied on behalf of the US defence contractors, as had European leaders on behalf of the European jets.

"It is confirmed Eurofighter and Rafale have been selected and the remaining four are off," said the Indian defence ministry.

The other two companies to miss out were Sweden's Saab and the Russian makers of the MiG 35.

'Political setback'

The ambassador, Timothy Roemer, said: "We are reviewing the documents received from the government of India and are respectful of the procurement process."

He added that the US "looked forward to continuing to grow and develop our defence partnership with India".

However, some commentators suggested there could be some political fallout from the decision.

"The Americans will be very unhappy and people who have been backing the contract will say India has not sufficiently taken into account the political relationship with the US," said former Indian foreign secretary Kanwal Sibal.

"That is a political setback for relations."

Mr Roemer announced separately that he was resigning from his post for "personal, professional and family considerations".
Big spenders

A report published last month said that India had overtaken China to become the world's largest importer of arms.

The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute said India accounted for 9% of all weapons imports between 2006 and 2010.

With a $32.5bn (£19.5bn) defence budget, India imports more than 70% of its arms.

The $11bn deal for 126 fighter jets is part of plan to spend $50bn over the next five years on modernising its armed forces.
 
Does anyone know if the Rafale would come with HMS for IAF as I read an article (admittedly 2 years old) saying Rafale had no HMS. Would it be the TOPSIGHT-I developed by Thales and Samtel and being used on MKI, TEJAS, Mig 29k, Mig 29UOG and Mirage m2k UPG if go is given, in Indian service. Or would a different HMS be offered as there was talk of the EFT's Starwars helmet, would this come with EFT or is this an option the IAF could take? And would they take it?
1-796350.jpg





+ I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but surely this decision has MASSIVE ramifications for the upgrade of IAF. Mirage 2000H? If Rafele is chosen will IAF really opt to spend $2 BILLION on their latest induction's predecessor? And what about EFT, will Mirage UPG still go ahead? Or in both cases will IAF go for more MMRCA and just phase out Mirage m2k asap?

Very interesting scenario.
 
Although this below holds true, a final selection between EF and Rafale for India between the two, The French Rafale will be better for Indian Air Force. Potential for Indian Navy version and a possibility to copy Rafale technology into their "indigenous" LCA, Tejas, giving a fresh air to the faltering projects.

Nevertheless, India a wannabe Super-Power is unfortunately just a long dream not a truth, it will be realised by Bhartis in not too a distant time. the What, Why, How not.

Either platform would be a great addition for the IAF and PAF definitely have their work cut out in front of them. One thing working for Rafale is the possibility of a future induction by the IN which would allow logistics to be simplified across the IAF/IN (something that may be the case with the Mig-29 induction by the IN).
+1,

Saab: Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme | Business Wire
Today defence and security company Saab AB (STO:SAABB) has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.

”We are offering India a world class next generation fighter aircraft to a ” says Håkan Buskhe, President and CEO at Saab.

Gripen is in service with the Swedish, Czech Republic, Hungarian, South African and Royal Thai Air Forces. The UK Empire Test Pilots’ School (ETPS) is operating Gripen as its advanced fast jet platform for test pilots worldwide.
Saab Press Centre
+46 (0)734 180 018
Saabgroup.com - Defence and Security
Cheers for that official link Mr Indian, Rafale with no customers and a Gripen NG with " 5 " customers, competitive price, complete transfer programme. Who should win hands down. Gripen NG AESA is due to be released soon.

EF and Gripen NG, the FAR better choice while all 6 contenders are put together! :shout::chilli::wave:
 
Drop the Gripen already will you!
Its a single engine aircraft, that has yet to have its NG varient operationalized and comes with an AMERICAN engine!
How the hell is ToT going to be possible?
It is already known that. Snecma has been finalized as the partner that will finish the Kaveri 2 engine. Which will give the Tejas, supercruise.
 
^ ^ jatt,
Why do you think Single engine is harmful, its not. High maintainace for twin engine and it is prone to more problems and long maintainance time. AESA is already a part of the Gripen, and decently priced (that you can buy far more Gripens then only a few EFs). Now the real problem is the engine. If Indian officials not worry about kick-backs then you can easily get a Tot, including negotiating well with Americans. US is your strategic partner in any case, so whats the big deal. Request a line in the contract to licence produce the engine in India just like other things being done by HAL.

Lastly, you are wrong to think that EuroFighter or Rafale will be giving India full ENGINE technology, no one gives that. India will only be assembling it in the end. Do you produce engine for Su 30 Mkis in india too, no they are imported from Russia, although full ToT given.

Anyways,
Gripen NG pic below:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9fNKRyQxUNw/TBgHVZOiWfI/AAAAAAAAFRM/DYeiHA75jxY/s1600/gripen_ng_front.jpg

Watch Gripen NG with new stuff(latest realese):
 
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^^^ Its too late for this "discussion" now. No commission for you from SAAB:tongue:

Any chance of IAF getting both EF and Rafale?
 
As for Pakistan, its doing fine, JF17s stand far ahead to LCAs, Tejas, Mirages, Mig 29s and Mig Bisons.

* Quite importantly, whether India gets the French Rafale or not, Pakistan will still be dealing with French. Its similar to what happened when Pakistan bought its Mirages and India bought its Mirages. In point of fact, that is what will hold future for Pakistan or as a matter of fact for Indias MMRCA, The Frenchy will sell their a$$ for money to the highest bidder.

Secondly, Considering PAF will have access to Eurofighters (Saudi Typhoons), its worth contemplating why India go for EFs, Kick backs, history of corruption in such deal etc etc?

What holds worry for Pakistan is its speedy induction of upgraded, enhanced JF17 Thunders potentially the new "JF17 Stealth Thunder - JF17 ST", further enhancements to J10s, J20 Black Eagle and quite possibly J11s (the later three are simply not upto PAF standards). Also, PAF should look to induct a squadron of Mig 35s, via indirect deals with China to Russia, quite possibly? Or have deals with the Swedes and get two to three Squadrons of Gripen NG ? Or Rather, I would like Pakistan to go for the same Indian MMRCA Rafale fighters but in just two squardons, basically to dilute any Indian surprise threat if at all it happens. :chilli: :flame:

As for China, its doing very well, it needs to rapidly introduce new technologies in its Air Force. Built sophisticated Aircrafts with cutting edge technology. Chinese need to reduce the overall size of their planes that is bigger the size, in WVR or BVR engagements, its easier to locate and hunt them. Although there are as some advantages to have large size fighters; range, payload etc etc. Fine tuning is what is required with China.

~ Adious ~


:china:::pakistan::pakistan:
:pakistan::china::china:
 
@ AsianUnion Thats quite the shopping list you got there mate, How you going to pay for it(not trolling)?:lol:

Also,
What holds worry for Pakistan is its induction of upgraded, enhanced JF17 Thunders potentially the new "JF17 Stealth Thunder - JF17 ST", further enhancements to J10s, J20 Black Eagle and quite possibly J11s (the later three are simply not upto PAF standards).

Are you telling me that PAF has higher standards than PLAAF?
 
@ AsianUnion Thats quite the shopping list you got there mate, How you going to pay for it(not trolling)?:lol:
I knew trollers like you would crawl and pick a line to talk about, which is gibberish to say the least.

Anyways, there is a big "Or" between the said shopping list, read my above post again, carefully. Besides, money is something Pakistan can deal with it, as its done in the past. What you should be doing is planning to attack and invade your neighbouring countries with your supposed new goodies, if you have something in you. Infact, dare to do it now.

What Pakistan needs is a minimum defence capabilities and it knows how to do it, far better than the boastful show-off "chankiya" Indians.

Are you telling me that PAF has higher standards than PLAAF?
Am telling you nothing, regarding who has more standards to whom, its about requirements. PAF or PLAAF, one human two arms, get this in your thick brain.

:pakistan::china:
 
Buddy even China dnt have any thing like EF or Rafele in their inventory

I know Bro but their intelligence wing is top notch because it uses any source as a way to gain intel.....EF having so many partners makes it possible for leaks to slip.....I also wonder how these countries will react to India's problems via CHina and Pakistan?
 
What Pakistan needs is a minimum defence capabilities and it knows how to do it, far better than the boastful show-off "chankiya" Indians.

Thats exactly India's goal too. Achieving minimum deterrence against the combined strength of PAF and PLAAF. Attacking and failing is Pakistan's forte not India's.

Am telling you nothing, regarding who has more standards to whom, its about requirements. PAF or PLAAF, one human two arms, get this in your thick brain.

:pakistan::china:

Yeah too bad that human body is not ambidextrous. While PLAAF is the dominant right hand which does all the work, while PAF is just the left hand there to do the dirty work. Now save me your jingoism.

You said that J-10, J-11 and even J-20 was not upto PAF's standard. I don't see the thought process here, so China makes the super awesome JF-17 for Pakistan and doesn't induct any in its own air force, but instead decides to induct loads of "sub-standard" J-10 and J-11's?

I mean I understand patriotism, but this is just talking sh*t.
 
Eurofighter is catching up in the poll....:police:
 

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