India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[jha]

welli want to increase my posts

can any body do debate with me about these two fighters?

which 1 is best and why?

can any body tell me about the advantage of spectra and does EF has something similr to Spectra?

Spectra supposedly scores over DASS ( for EFT ) in terms of sensor fusion and the fact that the system is not fully developed for EFT.. Work is still on .. Once it is developed then there is very high probability of it bettering SPECTRA..

 

[KEETARP]

SPECTRA is highly overrated .

When it comes to core ACM , rafale can neither outclimb nor outrun PLA's flankers .
Similarly it cannot out-maneuver flanker .

If air-force wants to place MRCA on Eastern border , better get a aircraft that has power and agility to match mighty flankers . And that to good 500 of them .

 

[RazorMC]

The Sukhois are air-superiority fighters while the Rafale is multi-role. And India has its own fleet of Sukhois to counter others.
A comparison is not fair to either.

 

[sancho]

note what I want to know will ALL (including first batch delivered from producer ~2014 come with HMDS) as standard?

It is very likely that IAF wants HMS, because they have long experience with it at Russian fighters and add it to any new, or upgraded fighter as well. EF has HMS now, Rafale don't. The French tested some prototypes of the Topsight (but way more futuristic) in the early stages, later there were also a competition by Thales and Sagem to develop one, where the latter was chosen but not integrated. French pilots (especially the navy pilots), seems not to like it so far because of the weight, but it mainly was not integrated to save money for other upgrades.
So if IAF wants it, they either have to integrate the Topsight I, or fund the Sagem version, which should be prefered by Dassault and French forces as well.

Here are some pics of the Topsight HMS during trials:

 

[sancho]

welli want to increase my posts

can any body do debate with me about these two fighters?

which 1 is best and why?

can any body tell me about the advantage of spectra and does EF has something similr to Spectra?

It's too late over here, so maybe this helps you for now to get a hint of the advantages Rafale offers:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-102.html#post1756704

Spectra supposedly scores over DASS ( for EFT ) in terms of sensor fusion and the fact that the system is not fully developed for EFT.. Work is still on .. Once it is developed then there is very high probability of it bettering SPECTRA..

DASS is fully developed, but unlike SPECTRA (or like the whole story between EF and Rafale), the one will be constantly upgraded, the other not. That's why the EF partners simply procured the same DASS that is available for their older versions, while the French with already more advanced SPECTRA keeps on upgrading the System and why the F3+ on offer in MMRCA with DDM NG for example.


Btw, Rafale is even increasing the edge to EF on the weapon side:

Although French fighters have been dropping concrete bombs (using a Paveway III guidance kit) in Libya, military officials want a more effective system. One topic of discussion is the purchase of Dual-Mode Brimstones from MBDA, although program officials note a final decision has not been taken. The Rafale would likely feature a basic integration of the weapon to speed fielding.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-342.html#post1790977


And look what we have here:

New A2A config with METEOR and MICA EM on the external wingstations! Seems like they integrating not only the new missile, but the increasing the capacity as well (8 x AAMs + 3 x fuel tanks at max) Might have something to do with the UAE deal as well, because they wanted this config.

 

[sancho]

More interesting news as well:

Commercial bids for fighter plane contract to be opened next week

New Delhi: Commercial bids for India’s $10.5-billion order for 126 fighter planes are expected to be opened next week, highly placed sourced told FE. There are two finalists in the race for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, often described as the mother of all defence deals: Eurofighter Typhoon from Europe’s EADS-led consortium and Rafale from Dassault Aviation of France.

The opening of the commercial bids would lift the suspense on the lowest bidder, paving the way for commercial negotiations. Defence officials from France and Germany are currently touring India to promote their offerings, leaving no stone unturned to swing the deal in their favour.

Indian Air Force (IAF) officials are believed to be rooting for the Rafale, which could come across as the lowest bidder owing to its low lifecycle cost. However, Eurofighter’s offer to set up a production line in India could give it some leverage...

...Briefing media persons ahead of German chancellor Angela Merkel’s visit next week, German ambassador Thomas Matussek said: “The Typhoon represents the most advanced and cost-efficient machines. During her talks with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the chancellor will express satisfaction about the transparency and the orderly manner in which the whole process of selection took place.”

Outlining details of the industrial partnership offer to integrate India as a partner in the Eurofighter programme, Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Cassidian Air Systems and chairman of the supervisory board of Eurofighter GmbH, during his recent India visit told FE: “Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key partner co-developing and co-producing future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc.”...

Commercial bids for fighter plane contract to be opened next week


As I said, the Rafale is the best suiting for our forces (IAF, IN, SFC), while the biggest advantage of the EF is not the fighter, but the industrial offer that comes along with it!

 

[axisofevil]

More interesting news as well:



Commercial bids for fighter plane contract to be opened next week


As I said, the Rafale is the best suiting for our forces (IAF, IN, SFC), while the biggest advantage of the EF is not the fighter, but the industrial offer that comes along with it!

That being said our domestic industry is our NUMBER ONE PRIORITY and as a result the industrial offer more than enough outweighs the benefits of Rafale. EFT is a very close 2nd IF NOT TIE to Rafale according to some of you who are blind.... as the EFT program matures we get to learn and incorporate such feeatures into our fighters. Think morons........

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I hope India takes their time to test out the two remaining planes - and best of luck to them once they select the winner in 2014

The helmets look awesome too

Just please don't get addicted to french , they have a habbit of shifting ties for highest bidder

 

[luckyyy]

rafale has no growth potential as it never going to get upgraded on cost front...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ma-upgrade-its-mirage-fleet-buy-new-jets.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ook-elsewhere-chopper-engine.html#post1793639

 

[RazorMC]

Rafale is offering ToT and the radar source. What does India want with EF anymoe?

 

[Paan Singh]

Rafale is offering ToT and the radar source. What does India want with EF anymoe?

there shud be few dollars for the europeans also............i will prefer to purchase 200 fighters with split orders..

 

[sancho]

there shud be few dollars for the europeans also............i will prefer to purchase 200 fighters with split orders..

Then you split the benefits of ToT, offsets and politics in half as well, besides increase the costs dramatically. The competition gets so much attention exactly because IAF wants the order from a single vendor only and it is likely to be expanded as well. The benefit for the vendor that wins is way beyond the $12 billions that the MMRCA is expected to costs directly, because there will be additional deals for spares, weapons, logistics, upgrades...
That's why all vendors and countries were wanted this deal, not to mention that for most of the vendors it would be a life saver as well (F16, Gripen, Mig 35, EF), because they don't have other orders at the moment.

I still hope for Rafale, with a fast induction of 2 - 3 squads directly from France and the rest produced under licence in India with Kaveri - Snecma engine. Would be the best solution for our forces and industry!

 

[wind]

keeping Rafale vs EF aside. Choosing Typoon will increase India's leverage in Europe to great extent.

 

[sancho]

Eyeing lucrative IAF jet deal, France, Germany spar in public

The scene may heat up further, as German Chancellor comes to India next week


The Germans and the French may have relinquished battlefield animosity long ago, but on Friday they regaled the media in New Delhi with their old ways. The German and French diplomats took swipe at each other while promising moon to India. All this effort was worth US$12 billion for a deal for 126 multi-role fighter jets that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants to buy. French company Dassault Aviation’s Rafale and the German-led European consortium EADS’s Eurofighter Typhoon have been shortlisted by India, while rejecting American, Swedish and Russian variants...

...The German envoy said that the rules of engagement did make his country and his partners different. “The purchase of defence and security-related equipment requires an end-user certificate. All over the world, exporters insist on this. But, we will not insist on monitoring and on-spot inspections. For example, we have sold you communication equipment. That distances us from our competitors,” he said.

Admitting that the deal has political overtones, the ambassador was candid enough to admit the countries associated with Eurofighter consider it a very important political partnership. “We are here also taking about political relationships with four major NATO countries and four major European countries. India will definitely benefit,” he said. “It is not only technology but political partnership as well you get when you need it the most,” he added.

Further, he said that the Eurofighter was ready to share technology with India to a degree nobody has so far offered. “We are optimistic as far as the future possibilities not just for India but whole of Asian market and beyond is concerned,” said the German ambassador.

In order to beat the French, the European defence giant is transferring some of its operations to India. The EADS has already set up a military research and development centre in Bengaluru.

Unlike the Americans, the Europeans are not insisting on signing a Logistics Supply Agreement (LSA) and a Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA). The LSA allows foreign warships, military aircraft and personnel to access Indian military bases for re-fuelling, rest and recuperation and turnover on a reciprocal basis. The CISMOA is designed to ensure that the equipment transferred to the Indian armed forces are encrypted, secure and compatible with the US military systems...

Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

Compared to the US offers, these points are true and very interesting for sure, but they are not in the competition anymore and France offers no restriction and much ToT as well and the EADS R&D center in Bengaluru can't beat the French, because they are involved in EADS as well. But even they know that the only way to win the deal for them is by offereing ToT, industrial and political advantages, because the fighter is less capable than the French counterpart. Not to mention that the options for new orders of the more expensive EF are pretty low at the moment, while Rafales chances in India, UAE, Brazil and Swiss are still very strong.

 

[IND151]

brother ASMP is still on the drawing table yet....it will take atleast 2 years before tejas can incorporate it....the problem is Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india....so ISRO can bail us out by producing them...that will save us funds which can be diverted for the development of fuel tanks for Tejas mk-II...furthermore if our defence minister can pay kick-back to Bajaj Autos we can get lights for Tejas real quick and lets pray things go smoothly and hopefully we will see rafale and Tejas squadrons soon

amazing internet..... amazing idiot.....