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India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Who is now the Favorite?


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brother ASMP is still on the drawing table yet....it will take atleast 2 years before tejas can incorporate it....the problem is Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india....so ISRO can bail us out by producing them...that will save us funds which can be diverted for the development of fuel tanks for Tejas mk-II...furthermore if our defence minister can pay kick-back to Bajaj Autos we can get lights for Tejas real quick and lets pray things go smoothly and hopefully we will see rafale and Tejas squadrons soon:tup:

Security Council did not veto NUCLEAR DEAL but Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india then ISRO comes to produce tube and tyre :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
YOU ARE THE BEST EVER DEFENSE ANALYSIST keep it up :tup: :tup: :hitwall:
 
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Isn`t Rafale a confirmed winner? ( atleast from the unofficial news)

Euro consortium has nothing to offer compared to what French can offer. The second phase of the shortlist is totally political and little or less economical. If french can help with the design of reactor for nuke AC and offer more TOT on DE subs ,SRSAM and possible know how with thier 1600MW reactors,.........
Euro consortium has got nothing other than a couple of bankrupted economies and countries who offer rattle about human rights voilations.
 
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Euro consortium has nothing to offer compared to what French can offer. The second phase of the shortlist is totally political and little or less economical. If french can help with the design of reactor for nuke AC and offer more TOT on DE subs ,SRSAM and possible know how with thier 1600MW reactors,.........
Euro consortium has got nothing other than a couple of bankrupted economies and countries who offer rattle about human rights voilations.
You should do a little research before posting crap like this. The tech/offset offers are from Dassault and EADS respectively. Not the French and consortium governments. Dassault does not have the ability to offer India nuke reactor tech etc, the french gov't can offer than as a bonus to purchasing the Rafale. As of right now, EADS has the ability to offer more in terms of tech transfer than Dassault could ever. EADS' subsidiaries, Airbus, MBDA, Cassidian can offer a lot more than Dassault can. If this contract is about getting the most tech/know how to infuse into the local industry than the Typhoon will win this by a mile, but if India wants a fighter ready now then they'll choose the Rafale.
 
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You should do a little research before posting crap like this. The tech/offset offers are from Dassault and EADS respectively. Not the French and consortium governments. Dassault does not have the ability to offer India nuke reactor tech etc, the french gov't can offer than as a bonus to purchasing the Rafale. As of right now, EADS has the ability to offer more in terms of tech transfer than Dassault could ever. EADS' subsidiaries, Airbus, MBDA, Cassidian can offer a lot more than Dassault can. If this contract is about getting the most tech/know how to infuse into the local industry than the Typhoon will win this by a mile, but if India wants a fighter ready now then they'll choose the Rafale.

Here we are dealing with French gov which offered thier total support to Dassault for this multi-billion dollar deal. Instead of rattling, I would also like you to take note of numerous trips of french ambassadors to south block than compared to officals from Dassault itself.
Going with Rafale is a winners choise while going for typhoon is a liability which is still to be evolved interms of its muti-role capabilitites. Not even the partner nations are sure about how many fighters they will induct. The graph is taking a down trend.
And regarding the TOT from Cassidian, its a multi-national partnered company.Who know which nation will throw a spanner in the middle of the deal?
Its as simple as 7+2=9 that a single national company has more stability and can fulfill more demands than compared to a multi-national consortium.
When we are talking about a fighter that has to serve IAF for the next 30-35 yrs, we dont take fanboy opinions.
Cassidian says: If Typhoon wins, part of the manufacturing will be shifted to India. It means the four nations has to trim their share.Also India wont be manufacturing the complete AC. It still has to import some parts from the 4 nations.
Dassault Says: India will be able to manufacture everything itslef.

When we are spending 12 billion now for 126 and a high possibility for 74 more nearly 20 billion total value for upright purchases and another 20 billion in terms of upgrades ,we will be looking to leverage the deal but certainly not be looking to be a part of liabilitites .

A deal that is worth nearly 40 billion for the next 20 years is dealt with in such a way GOF will be care taker of the agreement.
It is also as simple as when MOD whipped at the GOF for the delays in scorpene and not at DCNS.
 
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TOI.jpg
 
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I think EF will get it eventually. If It's EF which get selected, then with in a decade we will have some serious heavy weights in our air force(su30 MKI, EF and PAK FA)
 
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brother ASMP is still on the drawing table yet....it will take atleast 2 years before tejas can incorporate it....the problem is Security Council will veto france's move of selling tyres and tubes to india....so ISRO can bail us out by producing them...that will save us funds which can be diverted for the development of fuel tanks for Tejas mk-II...furthermore if our defence minister can pay kick-back to Bajaj Autos we can get lights for Tejas real quick and lets pray things go smoothly and hopefully we will see rafale and Tejas squadrons soon:tup:

Bhai mere raat me kitni pee thee ???? :cheesy:
 
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I think EF will get it eventually. If It's EF which get selected, then with in a decade we will have some serious heavy weights in our air force(su30 MKI, EF and PAK FA)
Rafale is much better than EF atleast right now...by 2015-16 EF might be better but who will wait till then ? Also if would hate to see our EF (if we purchase them) facing PAF's Rafale which lets face it if we won't chose Pakistan will try to purchase and they have already shown interest but MMRCA is stopping the French while on the other hand if we purchase Rafale, well lets face it Pakistan cannot afford EF...
 
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Here we are dealing with French gov which offered thier total support to Dassault for this multi-billion dollar deal. Instead of rattling, I would also like you to take note of numerous trips of french ambassadors to south block than compared to officals from Dassault itself.
Going with Rafale is a winners choise while going for typhoon is a liability which is still to be evolved interms of its muti-role capabilitites. Not even the partner nations are sure about how many fighters they will induct. The graph is taking a down trend.
And regarding the TOT from Cassidian, its a multi-national partnered company.Who know which nation will throw a spanner in the middle of the deal?
Its as simple as 7+2=9 that a single national company has more stability and can fulfill more demands than compared to a multi-national consortium.
When we are talking about a fighter that has to serve IAF for the next 30-35 yrs, we dont take fanboy opinions.
Cassidian says: If Typhoon wins, part of the manufacturing will be shifted to India. It means the four nations has to trim their share.Also India wont be manufacturing the complete AC. It still has to import some parts from the 4 nations.
Dassault Says: India will be able to manufacture everything itslef.

When we are spending 12 billion now for 126 and a high possibility for 74 more nearly 20 billion total value for upright purchases and another 20 billion in terms of upgrades ,we will be looking to leverage the deal but certainly not be looking to be a part of liabilitites .

A deal that is worth nearly 40 billion for the next 20 years is dealt with in such a way GOF will be care taker of the agreement.
It is also as simple as when MOD whipped at the GOF for the delays in scorpene and not at DCNS.

brother dont u think instead of spending 40 billion in the next 20 years we should build and establish our own DCN industry....HAL and ISRO can team up with IPL to produce best MBT's.....considering the Arjun project is going down the drain....Congress is the real player here....If BGP can give its support to IPL for the next season then i am sure we will be buying typhoon instead of Rafale cause u know Tejas mk-II would be better than Rafale in terms of speed and fuel efficieny....TATA can provide blueprints for the airframe of Tejas mk-II once VK.Singh has received his share of kick-backs and foreign tours...let keep our fingers crossed cause seen we will see the best defence deal ever in our history:tup:
 
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You should do a little research before posting crap like this. The tech/offset offers are from Dassault and EADS respectively. Not the French and consortium governments. Dassault does not have the ability to offer India nuke reactor tech etc, the french gov't can offer than as a bonus to purchasing the Rafale. As of right now, EADS has the ability to offer more in terms of tech transfer than Dassault could ever. EADS' subsidiaries, Airbus, MBDA, Cassidian can offer a lot more than Dassault can. If this contract is about getting the most tech/know how to infuse into the local industry than the Typhoon will win this by a mile, but if India wants a fighter ready now then they'll choose the Rafale.

I wouldn't bet on that, because the industrial part is offered from consortiums on both sides! EF was developed by a consortium of different companies, with BAE, EADS and Alenia as the leaders, but EADS is this case is only the German and Spanish part, while the French part (which is equal to the German) is not included. Any offset offer from EADS regarding other products that EF and it's techs, will require French approval as well, especially because the French government holds shares themselfs, while the German part is privat only. It is even more likely that they will compromise by agreeing to offer the same products from EADS, be it for EF, or Rafale, because they wouldn't block own sales.
Rafale on the other side was developed by Dassault, but is offered, by a consortium of Dassault, Thales and Snecma/Safran group and these companies already has some very interesting cooperations in India (Thales JVs with Samtel and possibly with LRDE on Tejas AESA, Turbomecca (also Safran group) with HAL on Shakti engine, Snecma possibly with the Kaveri engine, Eurocopter and HAL for Cheetak, Cheetal, Dhuv, French MBDA for Maitri SAM...
I do belive that the EF consortium can offer more offsets, at least that is also known from the Swiss competition, but the good experience and already available cooperations with French industry can't be underestimated.
 
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I wouldn't bet on that, because the industrial part is offered from consortiums on both sides! EF was developed by a consortium of different companies, with BAE, EADS and Alenia as the leaders, but EADS is this case is only the German and Spanish part, while the French part (which is equal to the German) is not included. Any offset offer from EADS regarding other products that EF and it's techs, will require French approval as well, especially because the French government holds shares themselfs, while the German part is privat only. It is even more likely that they will compromise by agreeing to offer the same products from EADS, be it for EF, or Rafale, because they wouldn't block own sales.
Rafale on the other side was developed by Dassault, but is offered, by a consortium of Dassault, Thales and Snecma/Safran group and these companies already has some very interesting cooperations in India (Thales JVs with Samtel and possibly with LRDE on Tejas AESA, Turbomecca (also Safran group) with HAL on Shakti engine, Snecma possibly with the Kaveri engine, Eurocopter and HAL for Cheetak, Cheetal, Dhuv, French MBDA for Maitri SAM...
I do belive that the EF consortium can offer more offsets, at least that is also known from the Swiss competition, but the good experience and already available cooperations with French industry can't be underestimated.

brother the consortium issued by HAL and Bajaj Autos was much better than consortiums offered by German and Spanish companies....all the manuals were written in hindi....as far as the Shakti engine for Tejas mk-II is concerned TATA is offering HAL cheap pistons and gas kits so i think we should go for our home-made stuff....AESA radar is good but much better than it is our very own Kumar radar that is currently being developed by ISRO and NSG and is in initial stages of development.Problem with Kevari engine is that that we are still unable to decide how many fins will its engine have?I think we should go for Cheetal for Maitri SAM and ISRO for Cheetak.Swiss are pretty good at making consortiums and banks but i think we much better in making Tejas and thats what matters the most:tup:
 
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India will break the streak and it will help it too.................:chilli::mod::pop:

The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants

The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad

By Carol Matlack

The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion—a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.

The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs—while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.

Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.

Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.

The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.

Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.

The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."

The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...=rss_topStories
 
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India will break the streak and it will help it too.................:chilli::mod::pop:

The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants

The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad

By Carol Matlack

The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion—a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.

The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs—while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.

Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.

Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.

The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.

Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.

The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."

The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...=rss_topStories

2years old article ?????
 
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