India seals Rs 70,000 crores missile deal with Russia : MOD sources

[samlove]

How many launcher makes one squadron?

A regular S-400 battalion consists of at least eight launchers with 32 missiles and a mobile command

 

[sathya]

India seals Rs 70,000 crores missile deal with Russia

Read more at India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

@PARIKRAMA @sarjenprabhu @Joe Shearer @Zarvan @Atanz @levina @deckingraj @sathya

11 billion dollars worth deal just like that ?

No RFI, No RFP, No competition

I don't know , it didn't take a decade

What the heck could have happened to sign a 11 billion $ weapon deal just like that ?

Like a 5 th generation fighter gone over Delhi ?

 

[GURU DUTT]

Or Rs120,000 crores PKR!! Or one fourth the cost of the entire CPEC!!

you mean to say indian currency is better rated than pakistani currency how can that be possible

You know This acquisition is going to be gold mine. Now Pakistan will have to spend more on R&D on something to defeat this system that no one ever has built. or probably build more missiles, more MIRV. But these cost $$. and with the shape of Pakistan's economy. Sure go Ahead build, buy some thing to defeat this... by that time we will come up with some thing else, keep spending Pakistan.

dehshatgard darinder moodee fir se pakistan ke khilaaf saazish rach raha hai

 

[The Deterrent]

And as per my knowledge MaRV quite easy to build as comparing with MiRV.

Not really. Please continue this discussion in a relevant thread.

 

[nik22]

Psychology dictates this deal was negotiated and signed soon after SU-35 news.Money was found rather quickly unlike Rafael where india was stubborn to yield a similar amount. So who is more obsessed can be seen pretty clearly/. Correct me if I'm wrong ?

May be we did show haste after reports about SU35. But we knew Russia is playing bluff with us and trying to arm twist .
I would not call this obsession as you said. We are not taking about individuals here and some triangular love . It is diplomacy. We have worked to deny strategic depth to enemy with a long term ally. I say India seem to have done well and haste (if any) make sense.

 

[Vyom]

you mean to say indian currency is better rated than pakistani currency how can that be possible
dehshatgard darinder moodee fir se pakistan ke khilaaf saazish rach raha hai

hahahaha.. hilarious. America out spent the Soviets, they went broke in competing. Now today Pakistan will accuse of starting arms race. my point.. OK Lets Race

 

[Bang Galore]

Is there a critical necessity for such a system that we are going for straight out procurement?

This must have been negotiation for quite some time, some sources suggest that it was first broached some 2 years ago.

This system does change the game quite a bit. It would make the sanguine assumption that there would be no consequences to a terrorist attack be not as firm an assumption. This is not necessarily about a full blown war but the previous understanding in the head of a certain neighbour was that there would be a retaliatory response to a retaliatory strike following a major terrorist attack on Indian soil. That response could be an attack by the air force or by using some missiles against Indian targets knowing that a full blown conflict is unlikely because of nuclear capabilities. This acquisition would give real teeth to the threat of retaliatory action if a major terrorists attack were to occur. Retaliating to the retaliation may have to contend with the fact that this system might make it very tough for an effective response to be made.

The present dispensation in the GoI has made it clear that there will be a response to a major terrorist attack. In fact, that was what was supposedly told by Obama to a visiting PM, that the Gurdaspur attack could have triggered a much larger conflict. Hence it follows that the present dispensation in India considers this an absolute necessity in view of what they plan to do in such a situation.

 

[nik22]

It is not as simple as that. The Shaheen series cannot support MIRVs and Pakistan is far from MaRV technology, for now.

Well Sir, someone who does not know zilch, it is no difficult at all.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

i Think everyone here of different country has missed one magic trick.

In future we will see a far cost intensive and infernally deployment of a much sophisticated system which is built on S400 Triumf MKI and Indian BMD systems comprising of low range akash, maitri to barak 8 to barak 8er to aad.pad assimilation

For next 5-10 years, the ability of say Pakistan to deploy a much heavier tonnage weapon delivery system with a warhead of say 1.5 tonnes to 3 tonnes over a 3500-4000 kms with MIRV becomes a new challenge.. And i am sure they will respond to it appropriately. The only factor to consider is development of a new missile or augmentation from an existing platform. Secondly, Development of MIRV tech with at least 3 warheads to 10 warheads is the new tech frontier which they will have to invest (resources - time and money both). Of course if China can part this tech to Pak it becomes easier but i highly doubt that.. The range i dont see beyond what i mentioned (IRBM with MIRV) as developing a much larger range with MIRV seems a far cost centric approach and approaching ICBM range has global issues too

For China, i dont think its an issue .. as i said earlier, the ICBMs with terminal speed entering say around Mach 20+ with MIRV 3-10 in fact kind of jams the system completely as of course the upper long tier ranged missiles may take out MIRVs but will run out of time for reloads and thus will put the mid and lower tier into active mode for defending. Now even if the MIRV is intercepted, if the altitude is low the devastating effect is too much. Thus i see a scope for a much higher altitude interception plan as a precusor for effective BMD for longer range missiles

Of course we can be honest and say Triumf is so-so when it comes to ICBM interception unless we develop lasers or high altitude interception (at above 100kms type a la Thaad).
Few things are sure
1. China will MIRVed missiles more and change from 3 warhead system to may be 10-12 waarhead system in a short time
2. A cost intensive research and developement of a proper vehicle for Pak is now the most realistic solution for getting through the BMD especially in saturation mode. That will take time for development and production in large numbers unless research and tech is outsourced.
3. South East Asia will see MIRV deployment very soon whether its Agni or something else we have to wait and see.
4. This S400 acquisition is a security for IRBMs and Aircrafts. FOr ICBMs the road is very long..
5. We must have new sound strategies for saturation attack as well as Mirved engagements in case at different altitudes.

@The Deterrent - I hope i am correct in saying what i said in the above..
@MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @Abingdonboy @Oscar and other boarders.. Pls do correct and add (if i am wrong anyways)
@MastanKhan Sir, a big development.. Your thoughts sir and what you feel would be appropriate response..

 

[sathya]

Pakistan has already accepted its level and looking only for a minimum deterrence against us.

We need to know our level vis -a- vis china .

 

[Perpendicular]

@Stephen Cohen @Ind4Ever
As i posted in another thread lemme post it again here
India, Russia discuss missile, helicopter, sub deals ahead of Modi-Putin summit | Page 2

The important thing to understand is 2 points only
1. How many command centers India is procuring and planning?
2. Is the radar beyond russians S400 standard, we are augmenting via Israeli LRTR or similar types.

The number of command center tells you how beautifully the whole system can be spread over different ranges and different interjections. The number of regiments/ systems procurement comes after this as that itself tells us the plan of area coverage.

Secondly as i said if we can mix the radar of S400 and also able to input the signals via Israeli Long Range radar, we ultimately upgrade the S400 Triumf to more like S400 Triumf MKI version and enable much better detection and response ability. Its true Russia has good systems and Israeli radars are also world class. So ultimately we should be smart enough to use both for our protection.

From another blog i am posting one coverage picture what i had seen. as well some comments
Comments first
I have been reading up on this. It appears a single regiment of S-400 has 6 batteries maximum. Each battery has 12 launchers maximum. Moscow has 5 regiments of S-400 protecting it, that's 30 batteries maximum. I say maximum because you can have a smaller number of TELs or batteries connected to one command vehicle to make it smaller.

If the IAF requirement is the same, then we will have roughly 2 Russian regiments. Since one command vehicle controls 6 batteries, then we can deploy in just two locations. If IAF settles for lower number of TELs connected to each battery, then maybe another location at best. So it depends on how many command vehicles the IAF purchases. So I'm guessing just 2 or max 3.

And you are right, the battery level FCR can engage 36 targets. But the drawback is a single battery will have a mix of three different classes of missiles, so capability depends on the configuration.

So out of the 12 TELs, you can have one or two TELs carrying the 9M96 for self defence and the remaining can carry a mix of 48N6 and 40N6. So realistic capability depends on the number of larger missiles. The missiles will work as a 3 tier system to stop a single BM. So if we say multiple missiles from each class are required to stop a single BM, then actual BMs intercepted are lower than 36 at once.

Each TEL can carry 4 48N6 or 16 9M96. 40N6 configuration is not known. (courtesy Randomradio)

Indian S-400 is the upgraded version of original S-400 supplied to China. Indian S-400 will have elements of S-500 so it is more of S-450. The added advantage is that the present Radars of Israeli origin which are part of India developed AMD can be easily integrated with this system. This will give us multi-layered true AMD once Indian AMD gest fully operational. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

An important comment
The S-400 is actually useless in the South. It can only stop missiles of 3000-3500Km range and that's with only one type of missile, the 40N6. So the pk will be much lower than when it is defending Delhi or Mumbai. We actually need the Phase II BMD or the S-500 for cities in the South. The threat to Andamans from Pak also needs the S-500 class. Out of the 7 metros, only Delhi, Mumbai and Pune are protected by the S-400 and Phase I BMD.

As for China, the threat is a minimum of 6000Km. The range from Manchuria to Delhi is 5000Km, to the South it is about 6000Km. This is something the Phase II is supposed to take care of, but we will need a Phase III as well to deal with ICBMs from subs.

Apart from that, the capability from a single battery is limited. At best 10 targets at once, if there is an 11th missile, then the SAM has to react much faster for the 11th one. So a lot of overlapping will be necessary. An area within a 400Km radius will see more than 10 nukes fired at it. Not to mention MIRVs.

Those 12 batteries will not cover all of India. It will cover only the most vulnerable sites with overlapping. Russia's initial projection was 56 regiments with 8 launchers each. Moscow alone has 5 regiments protecting it. That's why I have a feeling at least 6 of those batteries will protect Delhi and Mumbai, which obviously also cover the most important airbases like Pune and Bareilly at long range. The remaining 6 may cover individual sites like Assam, Rajasthan/Gujarat, Bihar and Kashmir with plenty of overlapping.

We will have to rely on Phase II for Pan-India coverage. (courtesy Randomradio)

I have done a small study about the deployment of S-400 which is represented below. Each circle has a radius of 400kms. This deployment pattern ensures that it covers the arcs of every trajectory of a ballistic missile from Pakistan & China towards our major cities by at least two batteries and we get to cover complete airspace to west of Indus river within Pakistan, North of Brahmaputra river in China besides protecting all our offshore assets on western and eastern sea board. This deployment pattern also ensures that most assets like AWACs will have to be flown outside the range of these missiles rendering them ineffective for Pakistan as well as China and deny them a peep into our territory. This pattern will also provide cover to our IBGs wherever they are deployed on Pakistan border. 12 batteries will only help us defend the mainland without covering the offshore & enemy territory. We can remove one of the batteries with red circle in case we decide to cover only our own territory.
We will need 13 batteries to cover whole of Indian mainland with the ability to maintain deterrence within the enemy territory. The Andamans can be defended by Barak-8 missiles; however we must negotiate with Russia to induct at least four S-500 batteries out of a total of 12. These must be placed in Punjab, Gujrat, Southern part and North-East to be able to cover larger areas inside the enemy territory. Induction of S-500 will allow us to spare one battery of S-400 for Andamans out of 13. The S-500 is still under development and is likely to be available by end 2017. We must negotiate with Russia to have last four batteries to be delivered to be S-500. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

S-400 envelope over India

The above points and the picture seems to suggest the wide discrepancies as well as debates surrounding the role and efficacy of Triumf system or Triumf MKI system.
One thing is clear that a chinese BM with range more than 6k say launched from SCS or from deeper chinese provinces will essentially challenge our system.
Unless a dedicated satellite system detects and gives us a say 150-180 sec window. Again if its N armed, we would like to engage it at the highest altitude. Thus we need a sure shot kill vehicle or proximity explosion but at very high altitudes like 80-100 kms plus. Ala THAAD.. thats where evolution of S400 triumf MKI needs to be headed with at least 1 or 2 missile type developed for such a ICBM range Mach 20+ missile interception at very high altitudes.

Members are requested to pls share their views and comment on....

Additionally the price of INR 70K crores clearly implies the encirclement is proper and yes checnes of India getting additional S500 tech or perhaps a newer high altitude interception missile has increased. What i would love to see is a much larger number of command vehicles as i mentioned in point 1.

Good going and i hope we get details of the purchases soon

@Abingdonboy

Russia is planing to field 56 batallions of S400 S500 by 2020.

The S-400 is highly flexible when it comes to engagement ranges. The system uses multiple types of interceptors based on the targets range. The S-400 command can use insane 40N6 (~ 400 kms) , the very long range 48N6 (~250 kms), the long range 9M96E2 ( ~120 kms) and medium range 9M96E (~ 40kms). The big interceptors need not be used on targets flying closer and can be reserved to harass slow moving, high value targets (like AWACS, Fuel tankers, transports etc).

 

[GR!FF!N]

You forgot to Include
new 2 Kilo class submarines,
upgrade of existing kilo class submarines in IN fleet,
Upgrade of Su 30mki

There is still no confirm reports on new Kilo class,But yes other two are on cards.I didn't include it as it is not purchase.

 

[Spectre]

This must have been negotiation for quite some time, some sources suggest that it was first broached some 2 years ago.

This system does change the game quite a bit. It would make the sanguine assumption that there would be no consequences to a terrorist attack be not as firm an assumption. This is not necessarily about a full blown war but the previous understanding in the head of a certain neighbour was that there would be a retaliatory response to a retaliatory strike following a major terrorist attack on Indian soil. That response could be an attack by the air force or by using some missiles against Indian targets knowing that a full blown conflict is unlikely because of nuclear capabilities. This acquisition would give real teeth to the threat of retaliatory action if a major terrorists attack were to occur. Retaliating to the retaliation may have to contend with the fact that this system might make it very tough for an effective response to be made.

The present dispensation in the GoI has made it clear that there will be a response to a major terrorist attack. In fact, that was what was supposedly told by Obama to a visiting PM, that the Gurdaspur attack could have triggered a much larger conflict. Hence it follows that the present dispensation in India considers this an absolute necessity in view of what they plan to do in such a situation.

Thank you for your views, a stabilizing element in the stabilization - destabilization matrix of nuclear deterrence. S-400 for two dollar terrorists.

 

[Mike_Brando]

so the nutshell is india already has S300PMU,Spyder,Barak,Akash and in process to go for AAD-PAD and now S400 i wonder what is next

In short we now have an potent arsenal of bamboos in our inventory ready for all of our enemies to shove in their nice little juicy a$$es if they try any misadventure in the near future,Guru Dutt sahab

 

[Ind4Ever]

@Stephen Cohen @Ind4Ever
As i posted in another thread lemme post it again here
India, Russia discuss missile, helicopter, sub deals ahead of Modi-Putin summit | Page 2

The important thing to understand is 2 points only
1. How many command centers India is procuring and planning?
2. Is the radar beyond russians S400 standard, we are augmenting via Israeli LRTR or similar types.

The number of command center tells you how beautifully the whole system can be spread over different ranges and different interjections. The number of regiments/ systems procurement comes after this as that itself tells us the plan of area coverage.

Secondly as i said if we can mix the radar of S400 and also able to input the signals via Israeli Long Range radar, we ultimately upgrade the S400 Triumf to more like S400 Triumf MKI version and enable much better detection and response ability. Its true Russia has good systems and Israeli radars are also world class. So ultimately we should be smart enough to use both for our protection.

From another blog i am posting one coverage picture what i had seen. as well some comments
Comments first
I have been reading up on this. It appears a single regiment of S-400 has 6 batteries maximum. Each battery has 12 launchers maximum. Moscow has 5 regiments of S-400 protecting it, that's 30 batteries maximum. I say maximum because you can have a smaller number of TELs or batteries connected to one command vehicle to make it smaller.

If the IAF requirement is the same, then we will have roughly 2 Russian regiments. Since one command vehicle controls 6 batteries, then we can deploy in just two locations. If IAF settles for lower number of TELs connected to each battery, then maybe another location at best. So it depends on how many command vehicles the IAF purchases. So I'm guessing just 2 or max 3.

And you are right, the battery level FCR can engage 36 targets. But the drawback is a single battery will have a mix of three different classes of missiles, so capability depends on the configuration.

So out of the 12 TELs, you can have one or two TELs carrying the 9M96 for self defence and the remaining can carry a mix of 48N6 and 40N6. So realistic capability depends on the number of larger missiles. The missiles will work as a 3 tier system to stop a single BM. So if we say multiple missiles from each class are required to stop a single BM, then actual BMs intercepted are lower than 36 at once.

Each TEL can carry 4 48N6 or 16 9M96. 40N6 configuration is not known. (courtesy Randomradio)

Indian S-400 is the upgraded version of original S-400 supplied to China. Indian S-400 will have elements of S-500 so it is more of S-450. The added advantage is that the present Radars of Israeli origin which are part of India developed AMD can be easily integrated with this system. This will give us multi-layered true AMD once Indian AMD gest fully operational. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

An important comment
The S-400 is actually useless in the South. It can only stop missiles of 3000-3500Km range and that's with only one type of missile, the 40N6. So the pk will be much lower than when it is defending Delhi or Mumbai. We actually need the Phase II BMD or the S-500 for cities in the South. The threat to Andamans from Pak also needs the S-500 class. Out of the 7 metros, only Delhi, Mumbai and Pune are protected by the S-400 and Phase I BMD.

As for China, the threat is a minimum of 6000Km. The range from Manchuria to Delhi is 5000Km, to the South it is about 6000Km. This is something the Phase II is supposed to take care of, but we will need a Phase III as well to deal with ICBMs from subs.

Apart from that, the capability from a single battery is limited. At best 10 targets at once, if there is an 11th missile, then the SAM has to react much faster for the 11th one. So a lot of overlapping will be necessary. An area within a 400Km radius will see more than 10 nukes fired at it. Not to mention MIRVs.

Those 12 batteries will not cover all of India. It will cover only the most vulnerable sites with overlapping. Russia's initial projection was 56 regiments with 8 launchers each. Moscow alone has 5 regiments protecting it. That's why I have a feeling at least 6 of those batteries will protect Delhi and Mumbai, which obviously also cover the most important airbases like Pune and Bareilly at long range. The remaining 6 may cover individual sites like Assam, Rajasthan/Gujarat, Bihar and Kashmir with plenty of overlapping.

We will have to rely on Phase II for Pan-India coverage. (courtesy Randomradio)

I have done a small study about the deployment of S-400 which is represented below. Each circle has a radius of 400kms. This deployment pattern ensures that it covers the arcs of every trajectory of a ballistic missile from Pakistan & China towards our major cities by at least two batteries and we get to cover complete airspace to west of Indus river within Pakistan, North of Brahmaputra river in China besides protecting all our offshore assets on western and eastern sea board. This deployment pattern also ensures that most assets like AWACs will have to be flown outside the range of these missiles rendering them ineffective for Pakistan as well as China and deny them a peep into our territory. This pattern will also provide cover to our IBGs wherever they are deployed on Pakistan border. 12 batteries will only help us defend the mainland without covering the offshore & enemy territory. We can remove one of the batteries with red circle in case we decide to cover only our own territory.
We will need 13 batteries to cover whole of Indian mainland with the ability to maintain deterrence within the enemy territory. The Andamans can be defended by Barak-8 missiles; however we must negotiate with Russia to induct at least four S-500 batteries out of a total of 12. These must be placed in Punjab, Gujrat, Southern part and North-East to be able to cover larger areas inside the enemy territory. Induction of S-500 will allow us to spare one battery of S-400 for Andamans out of 13. The S-500 is still under development and is likely to be available by end 2017. We must negotiate with Russia to have last four batteries to be delivered to be S-500. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

S-400 envelope over India

The above points and the picture seems to suggest the wide discrepancies as well as debates surrounding the role and efficacy of Triumf system or Triumf MKI system.
One thing is clear that a chinese BM with range more than 6k say launched from SCS or from deeper chinese provinces will essentially challenge our system.
Unless a dedicated satellite system detects and gives us a say 150-180 sec window. Again if its N armed, we would like to engage it at the highest altitude. Thus we need a sure shot kill vehicle or proximity explosion but at very high altitudes like 80-100 kms plus. Ala THAAD.. thats where evolution of S400 triumf MKI needs to be headed with at least 1 or 2 missile type developed for such a ICBM range Mach 20+ missile interception at very high altitudes.

Members are requested to pls share their views and comment on....

Additionally the price of INR 70K crores clearly implies the encirclement is proper and yes checnes of India getting additional S500 tech or perhaps a newer high altitude interception missile has increased. What i would love to see is a much larger number of command vehicles as i mentioned in point 1.

Good going and i hope we get details of the purchases soon

@Abingdonboy

Thanks a lot brother. I like to add some info on this. India is going for 3 regiments. So more or less the final QUOTE is correct. 11 billion whopping dollars $... Only now I know Russia too has only 3 regiments. .

Indian S-400 is the upgraded version of original S-400 supplied to China. Indian S-400 will have elements of S-500 so it is more of S-450. The added advantage is that the present Radars of Israeli origin which are part of India developed AMD can be easily integrated with this system. This will give us multi-layered true AMD once Indian AMD gest fully operational. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

Bang on. Vstol Jockey (not aware of him) as given wide inside into this very deal. Russia already developed many technologies for S500 and India won't buy anything similar or less capable to Chinese imports. That's Huge no no. So Russia could had came up with more technologies with their offer.

Very good info you have given us brother. Awesome. If possible can post the blog link here or to my inbox on PDF. Like to dig in a bit