INDIA’S DEFENSE: THE SHOCKING TRUTH.

[Markus]

It is a well known fact that Indian Army aviation is in bad shape, there are processes going on for Apache, LCH etc. which will join the forces soon.

Air defense by 'army' is relatively obsolete as the main are sa-6 & sa-125s which went through a mid life upgrade till 'Akash's fill them.

There is indeed a gap for modanising the forces but will be filled very soon. All these hue and cry is to fast track it.

Why on earth does the Army aviation need the Apaches? They should be happy with the Dhruvs and LCH.

Let IAF handle Apaches.

 

[Muradk]

It is a well known fact that Indian Army aviation is in bad shape, there are processes going on for Apache, LCH etc. which will join the forces soon.

Air defense by 'army' is relatively obsolete as the main are sa-6 & sa-125s which went through a mid life upgrade till 'Akash's fill them.

There is indeed a gap for modanising the forces but will be filled very soon. All these hue and cry is to fast track it.

Very True Very True
I met a few Analysts from your country and it was an amazing experience that amount of knowledge these young kids had was surprising and during our discussion he gave me a article he wrote in the news paper telling how Money is not the problem its the Interlinking of the armed forces which is the cause of the delay and they were not shy by saying that all 3 armed forces hate each other by saying one is superior than the other.

 

[Windjammer]

Apart from the military gadgets, the armed forces suffer from an acute shortage of personal, specifically the Indian Air Force, which has been reported to be short of well over 300 pilots.

Indian Air Force short of 363 pilots: Report

New Delhi: The Indian Air Force is short of 363 pilots, a shortage that has lingered on for nearly five years owing to a lack of basic trainers.
As per data, the sanctioned strength of aviators in IAF as on January 1, 2012, was 3,783. However, the force has only 3,420 in its ranks. The constant delays in the procurement of basic trainers are further making it difficult for the force to cover up the shortfall. Overall, the IAF is short of 800 officers.
IAF has been doing without a basic trainer aircraft since its entire fleet of initial trainers HPT-32 was grounded in June 2009, following a series of crashes and over 100 engine failures. It had lost about 11 flying cadets to these aircraft. Three years after the grounding of the fleet, the IAF's selection of Swiss Pilatus aircraft is yet to get approval from the Cabinet Committee on Security.

Presently, IAF is training its rookie pilots on Kiran Mk-II, that used to form the second stage of training for IAF pilots. Thereafter, the pilots are either sent to British-built Advanced Jet Trainers (AJTs) or MiG-21s. Now, in view of the recent spate of accidents involving MiG-21s, IAF has decided that no more pilots will be trained on these Soviet-vintage jets after 2012.
The procurement of 75 Pilatus aircraft under the $1 billion deal has become "critical" for IAF as it is likely to face shortage of Kirans.
To meet the training requirements of the rookie pilots, the IAF intends to send some of its pilots to Switzerland for training till the delivery of the initial batch of 12 aircraft beginning in 2014.
The Comptroller and Auditor General had also punched holes in the training of the IAF pilots. The report pointed out that the IAF was facing an acute shortage of efficient pilots due to failure in imparting quality training, attributed to the lack of adequate state-of-the art training aircraft with the force.
As per the CAG's findings, 42 per cent of the 276 aircraft accidents reported during 1995-2005 were attributed to human errors.
According to the Parliamentary Panel's report on Defence, "We have issues with AJT. So, our ab initio pilots are going straight from basic to intermediate trainers and then on to the MiG-21 class of aircraft, which was a tremendous jump."

Indian Air Force short of 363 pilots: Report - India News - IBNLive

 

[Dark Warrior]

Let's make it clear the Army faces shortage of ammunition only in case of a two-front all out war.There was no shortage of ammo in the past as we were prepared for one war on a single front with Pakistan.All this came to light when Army found out that lacks ammo for all out 2-front war.
NOTE:The myth that we have ammo for two days war is B.S.Two days is only for certain anti-tank ammunition.(2 days because Army believes we will fire 40,000-50,000 AFSPDS in each day).

AS for Air force,PAF is not much of a worry for the IAF,even Senior US state department officials agree.
Here is US State department internal cable which was published by Wikileaks in 2010:

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 ISLAMABAD
Classified By: Anne W. Patterson

C) To overcome overwhelming Indian military superiority, Pakistan developed both its nuclear missile program and its air power. F-16 aircraft, armed with AMRAAMS, essentially buy time to delay Pakistan considering the nuclear option in a conflict with India. Given India's overwhelming military superiority, this would only be a few days, but these days would allow critical time to mediate and prevent nuclear conflict. 12. (C) India enjoys an almost 2-1 advantage (736 to 370) over Pakistan in advanced multi-purpose fighters. Pakistan's shortfalls in training and tactics multiply India's edge. Pakistan also plans to buy jointly produce 150 inferior JF-17 fighters from China, but it is unclear how they will pay for them. Meanwhile, India plans to acquire 126 multi-purpose fighters (F-18 or equivalent) that will give the GOI ISLAMABAD 00000586 003 OF 003 significant new technologies and further expand its air superiority over Pakistan.

Cable reference id: #09ISLAMABAD586

So I am confident that in case of war with Pakistan we will win in a few days as Pakistan will loose it's entire air force in a few days.

 

[Papa]

Apart from the military gadgets, the armed forces suffer from an acute shortage of personal, specifically the Indian Air Force, which has been reported to be short of well over 300 pilots.

Indian Air Force short of 363 pilots: Report

New Delhi: The Indian Air Force is short of 363 pilots, a shortage that has lingered on for nearly five years owing to a lack of basic trainers.
As per data, the sanctioned strength of aviators in IAF as on January 1, 2012, was 3,783. However, the force has only 3,420 in its ranks. The constant delays in the procurement of basic trainers are further making it difficult for the force to cover up the shortfall. Overall, the IAF is short of 800 officers.
IAF has been doing without a basic trainer aircraft since its entire fleet of initial trainers HPT-32 was grounded in June 2009, following a series of crashes and over 100 engine failures. It had lost about 11 flying cadets to these aircraft. Three years after the grounding of the fleet, the IAF's selection of Swiss Pilatus aircraft is yet to get approval from the Cabinet Committee on Security.

Presently, IAF is training its rookie pilots on Kiran Mk-II, that used to form the second stage of training for IAF pilots. Thereafter, the pilots are either sent to British-built Advanced Jet Trainers (AJTs) or MiG-21s. Now, in view of the recent spate of accidents involving MiG-21s, IAF has decided that no more pilots will be trained on these Soviet-vintage jets after 2012.
The procurement of 75 Pilatus aircraft under the $1 billion deal has become "critical" for IAF as it is likely to face shortage of Kirans.
To meet the training requirements of the rookie pilots, the IAF intends to send some of its pilots to Switzerland for training till the delivery of the initial batch of 12 aircraft beginning in 2014.
The Comptroller and Auditor General had also punched holes in the training of the IAF pilots. The report pointed out that the IAF was facing an acute shortage of efficient pilots due to failure in imparting quality training, attributed to the lack of adequate state-of-the art training aircraft with the force.
As per the CAG's findings, 42 per cent of the 276 aircraft accidents reported during 1995-2005 were attributed to human errors.
According to the Parliamentary Panel's report on Defence, "We have issues with AJT. So, our ab initio pilots are going straight from basic to intermediate trainers and then on to the MiG-21 class of aircraft, which was a tremendous jump."

Indian Air Force short of 363 pilots: Report - India News - IBNLive

Not only AF even IA is suffering short of 1500 officers. They won't compromise with their standards, matter of concern but need not to panic

 

[Dark Warrior]

PAF is still an infant compared to IAF in BVR combat:

¶13. (C) The sale of new aircraft and 500 AMRAAM missiles would give Pakistan beyond visual range capability, but Pakistan will acquire the ability to employ this capability with either the new buy or MLU aircraft. Canceling the new buy would thus only delay the process by 18 months. Successful employment of this capability by the PAF, however, will take 2-3 years and a significant revision of doctrine and tactics. The Indian Air Force already routinely trains on existing beyond visual range tactics.

http://cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=09ISLAMABAD586&q=16%20program%20saving

Also the US cable says that IAF's combat tactics and training are better than PAF's.
But yes IAF should increase number of it's pilots.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Question India is the world's largest weapons importer so why is it in a mess and who is responsible for it.

There wasn't much purchase after 70s. The purchase began after 2000 and then it picked up its pace around 2005. After 26/11 things dramatically changed. Not to mention India has a very big armed forces and just to maintain the fleet to the latest standards you will have to shed billions....Right now India is just trying to maintain the current status. As you guys just have read about IAFs depleting fleet, so in short IAF is not increasing the number of aircrafts, right now the goal is to reach the earlier minimum sanctioned squadron number of 39.5 squadrons and they are planning to raise the number of squadron to actual sanctioned number which is 42 by 2022. Although with the recent reports there was a proposal to increase the actual sanctioned squadron number to 45 and as far as i heard it was also cleared by the end of last year. Although keeping aside the future plans, bottomline is right now india is trying to maintain the sanctioned strength and not increase them.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Very True Very True
I met a few Analysts from your country and it was an amazing experience that amount of knowledge these young kids had was surprising and during our discussion he gave me a article he wrote in the news paper telling how Money is not the problem its the Interlinking of the armed forces which is the cause of the delay and they were not shy by saying that all 3 armed forces hate each other by saying one is superior than the other.

Sir Inter-forces rivalry is present everywhere. But it must be a healthy competition and not pure ego-stoking. The war is is won by forces acting in conjunction not as independent entities which will only lead to people dying. We have seen it in some of our wars where commanders at the top level carried their animosity towards the other forces to the battlefield and you have the results right infront of the eyes.

But these differences must be put aside and everything must be taken care of. This is the job of the Ministry of Defence and that is why it is head by a civillian.

 

[Windjammer]

How did you conclude that?

I think you have missed some of info from the link.



No doubt we are short in arms and ammunition but not that one lead to humiliation. We have enough stock pile. Moreover, leaked out info is keeping 2 front war in mind.

We are going off topic here, humiliation only comes if you are in a state of war......firing some rockets or artillery rounds or IAF flying some sorties dropping half a dozen bombs is neither cause for concern or the psyche of the subject.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Friend there is a lot of Corruption in military acquisitions because the volume of money is so high. If you look at the Medium Multi-role-Combat Aircraft deal, it is worth about $16 Billion to $17 Billion that is a huge amount of money if someone is getting 1% kickback that's a lot. By 2022 which is the end of the 13th five-year finance plan, India has allocated $100 billion for arms acquisitions. So there is a lot of scope of corruption on both civilian and military sides. the Bofors episode is used after 25 years as an excuse to not do anything. And with the Indian government style political class has the power but no sense of taking the right decision. The trend seems to be buy big ticket items before elections.

.

I didn't start this thread as to make India look bad my intentions are information getting some from you and give some too you. You guys are most welcomed to close the thread if you want to.

Dear Sir,

Please ignore the intemperate remark made by a compatriot one or two posts earlier. You will surely understand that it came out of genuine anguish, the anguish shared by all Indians with a healthy and positive interest in the defense of their country, and in the well-being of the personnel serving in the military, soldiers, sailors and airmen alike, and forgive it.

The question that you have raised is also one that a senior officer will recognize from miles away to be a complex one, wrapped in many layers of fact and circumstance. Some of these facts are public knowledge, and as they are on record, a useful discussion may take place, assuming that Indians do not lose their tempers, and that others do not take this rather broad opportunity to score points. We can only hope for rational behaviour. Some facts are also known, but not so widely; possibly knowledgeable people on the "other" side also know them, if from nothing more sinister than simply putting two and two together. Unfortunately, it is more than likely that you will get a miserable, unhappy silence from the Indian side. Those who know may not exactly be thrilled to bits about these facts getting better known than they are. On these, it is likely that there will be speculation by some not from India, and hot denials in strong language from Indians who know the least. Finally,there are those facts and circumstances that we will never get to know - thankfully, because some things are too lethal to bring up in public.

As for myself, as a loyal and patriotic Indian, my hopes rest not on dramatic and immediate reform of our defence arrangements; that is highly unlikely. Instead, I put my faith in the greed of human beings. The situation is one which afflicts not just India but also the two nations which occupy the thoughts of our three chiefs when they shave in the morning (our next two Army chiefs may not have that very useful pause for thought,but I speak metaphorically). In short, I hope the level of corruption in all three national organizations to even things out. It may sound terribly cynical, but it is a straw which must be reached for.

Thank you for raising the topic. It was the elephant in the room ignored by most of us so far.

 

[Dark Warrior]

We are going off topic here, humiliation only comes if you are in a state of war

True.
We enjoy overwhelming superiority over PAF in terms of numbers,technology,training and combat tactics,so we are not the one's going to humiliated.
Cable reference id: #09ISLAMABAD586

 

[joekrish]

The process of buying arms need to change for sure and there is a lot of corruption in the system no doubt about it, I also find there is no forsightedness in the precurement system and all purchases are done on the last moment but one thing should also be taken in to consideration that with such a big institution as big as the IA glitches like this are bound to happen and there is always room for improvement.

 

[harpoon]

Why on earth does the Army aviation need the Apaches? They should be happy with the Dhruvs and LCH.

Let IAF handle Apaches.

All rotary aircrafts (except some VIP transport or so) should be under Army.

 

[Dark Warrior]

Dear Sir,

Please ignore the intemperate remark made by a compatriot one or two posts earlier. You will surely understand that it came out of genuine anguish, the anguish shared by all Indians with a healthy and positive interest in the defense of their country, and in the well-being of the personnel serving in the military, soldiers, sailors and airmen alike, and forgive it.

Really?
In case you didn't notice Sir,those were the opinions of US state department not mine.

 

[harpoon]

Not only AF even IA is suffering short of 1500 officers. They won't compromise with their standards, matter of concern but need not to panic

Only 1500, I heard the shortage is in 5 figures, but you are right, IA is not ready to compromise with their standards for officer corps come what may.