India Russia might sign contract for 154 FGFA this november

[Ankit Kumar 001]

@Abingdonboy yes the AL41 derivative is not meant for the FGFA. But the Russians are not ready with the engine they promised yet. The revised timeline says 2018-2020 will be the time for new testing. And this means that the 12 aircrafts which the RuAF will get will have the same Su35 power plant.And without its promised power plant, it will loose it's important features including Super Cruise. So its very much clear that IAF won't commit to buy those untill MOD pushes them.

@knight11 Well power plant is surely a problem, because the present one will not be able to deliver enough power to PAK FA to do Super Cruise, or super Maneuvers and limiting its top speed at low altitudes. Yes Stealth is also a problem. But IAF knows that Russians won't match the leaves of stealth of F35, all they want is that in clean configuration , the PMF/FGFA should have an RCS in range of 0.1- 0.01m^2 .

 

[#hydra#]

Are you on drugs ??

There was a report that Obama has agreed to sell 8 more f16 to PAF, its very sad situation that we are purchasing more & more us toys these days. We should know who is our enemy & our partner,a country which sell us nuclear subs,tech in gen5 fighter,cruise missiles like brahmose missile are often portraid in this forum as anti Indian that too by many Indian members. I saw so many Indian members virtually crying to dump Russians.
Don't know how much distance is there between Obama & Osama.

 

[jaiind]

There was a report that Obama has agreed to sell 8 more f16 to PAF, its very sad situation that we are purchasing more & more us toys these days. We should know who is our enemy & our partner,a country which sell us nuclear subs,tech in gen5 fighter,cruise missiles like brahmose missile are often portraid in this forum as anti Indian that too by many Indian members. I saw so many Indian members virtually crying to dump Russians.
Don't know how much distance is there between Obama & Osama.

Russia was,is and will be a ture ally for India. America is just for business like others do.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

Man I cast my vote for modi expecting some swift changes both in defense & socio economic sectors, (since its a defence forum I won't talk any thing about later) I agree that they given order for apache & apart from what they have done all these days?

You again fail to specify what you specifically expected him to do.

They reduced 126 figure rafis to 36 in the beginning,many months has passed but still no agreement ( of course its an insanely over priced one,if they are not satisfied with price they should cancel & go for another options ,and give some room for airforces to breath). Our under water fighting capabilities are pathetic still no decent torpedo for our submarines. When they reduced proposed number for army mountain division I thought our govt want to make army to be better equipped with top quality gears, the light weight howitzer still is an oasis.

MMRCA is ALREADY Cancelled or have you not been reading the news ?

Current plan takes IAF need into account and order for 36 direct purchase has been taken. Dassault unfortunately seems to take time evern for that. How is it GoI 's fault ?

It is the UPA which blacklisted Finmeccanica and business rules do not allow purchase from blacklisted company. IN has insisted on Black-Shark. How is that Modi govt. fault ? Clearance report has to now come from Law ministry which in turn will have to do its own due diligence. That is the LAW and that cannot be circumvented. You have a problem with the got. following the law ?

About light weight howitzer, Hurdles cleared for howitzer deal, but FinMin has no money | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

It's a pathetic situation, no major defence purchases so far,every one praising Mr Parker including you & I am agreeing that he is better one compared to Mr Antony. But man we had a defence minister in earlier NDA govt one Mr George Fernandez, u have to compare pariker with george, not with some usles Sonia bakht.
And finally he always mouth fartef about befiting reply,& where is that reply?

What is pathetic is people keeping quite for 10 years and expecting parrikar to bend the law to compensate for UPA sins.

Parrikar is 100 times better than George Fernandez. No questions about it. Befitting reply is being administered, only you cannot see it.

Nawaz Sharif in US: Promises to act against Lashkar-e-Toiba; No nuclear deal between Pakistan and US | Latest News & Gossip on Popular Trends at India.com

Man if u can't do any wonder with in first year means they can't do it next four years also.

There is plenty being done, but there is no cure for whiners.

 

[knight11]

@knight11 Well power plant is surely a problem, because the present one will not be able to deliver enough power to PAK FA to do Super Cruise, or super Maneuvers and limiting its top speed at low altitudes. Yes Stealth is also a problem. But IAF knows that Russians won't match the leaves of stealth of F35, all they want is that in clean configuration , the PMF/FGFA should have an RCS in range of 0.1- 0.01m^2 .

Brother If you read my earlier post, I haven't mentioned any powerplant problem because IAF don't want Super Maneuver aircraft with trapezium shape but a stealth aircraft, but it seems Russians wants to go for that and the Reason could be they want to counter F-35 for that they would need a plane with longer range so that Pilot could wait for right position and time to attack F-35 and powerful Radar, to keep it out of BVR range, and super maneuver to fight in wvr when F-35 have burned its max fuel and looking to return. Here is the problem, India don't want a fighter plane to counter F-35, instead a fighter plane that could penetrate high SAM and Radar network and to deal with PLAF 5th Gen threat.
I agree with @Abingdonboy fully, that MTA should be given high priority, because it cannot be suffixes with C-17 or C-7 for our transport fleet.

 

[$@rJen]

@PARIKRAMA Bro is this an accurate news??? or we are just wasting the time?

 

[knight11]

@PARIKRAMA Bro is this an accurate news??? or we are just wasting the time?

Fake news -- forget till Engine develops, and better its delayed, so that India concentrate on Tejas and Raffale right now.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA Bro is this an accurate news??? or we are just wasting the time?

See the timeline of PAKFA and PMI (FGFA) was recently leaked by an insider in a russian forum which i did post in FGFA sticky.. His explanations in that forum about each prototype seems reasonable to me as i am looking from a outside perspective and we dont have any means to verify. But according to that schedule Russia had revised the PAKFA development plan as well as 12-20 serial production birds will enter service before 2019. and also they will handover 4 protos for PMI (FGFA) during the same period. Thats the crux of the matter and requires signing from India for R&D and firm order commitment for costing purposes.

Now issue is two fold
1. PAKFA at present is getting developed for Russian doctrine where they want a long range powerful machine which has both stealth, speed, maneuverability and on top strong long range weapons.. The answer is pretty clear for whom such a bird is getting designed.. I mean F35/F22 combination is the only thing in mind.
For us, its the other way, we are clear we wont face actual F22/F35 combo but rather a swarm of 4th and 4.5th gen bird and a sizeable amount of 5th gen mix of lower specs of F22/F35 type combinations. Thus, from the perspective of IAF, the weightage of few points may be more then RuAF which now is not getting addressed. At present PAKFA is a complete RuAF doctrine developed bird...
2. The access to information about this program even at highest levels is somewhat limited. The reason being of course secrecy but also because priority is RuAF version whereas the original plan was a mother prototype branching to PAKFA and FGFA from T50 platform. Of course GOI (whichever gov party) is also to be blamed as we did sit and not ran after Russian governments to see that workshare and other things are implemented. We did sleep when from T50 platform PAKFA protos started coming out and here we were not knowing at all what to do. In simple words, we kind of back ended the FGFA program and front ended the PAKFA for RuAF.. its our fault of course..
Some may argue the 5th Gen tech is not completely matured and engine is also under development.. True but if I30 engines come online in 36 months, will our protos be there which can start getting fitted with that engine? was it not more logical to check our protos with AL41 or any other engine (4th gen or 4.5th gen) to validate the specs in other aspects and do a more profound parallel development. We bungled up there.. There had been talks stating some Russian engineers clearly stating Indian aircraft manufactring hub cannot develop PAKFA like program and hence been kept out. We cant blame anyone for that as since we did not act in time, anyone can give any logic to support their individual actions.. But i do add honestly, our MIC still is at least 5-10 years away from actual handling of 5th gen tech and that i cannot deny especially if HAL continues as what it does atm and dont go through any transformation..

I think RM MP now going to Russia can provide some more insight whats really the insight status of true FGFA..

One thing is clear Russians want three things clearly
1. R&D contract signature and release of funds
2. Showcasing orders export to IAF and minimum 120-150 orders for a mix of seats
3. Signing shows in Modi Putin meet to show India Russia relationship and showcase to West especially USA that Russia will get a big pie of military contratc for some good amount in future come what may ( and say sanctions dont work on us)

The issue in RM MP hands specifically for RM MP and FM Jaitley pertaining to just IAF (basic) are
1. Rafale finance tranches planning
2 FGFA R&D and development plan
3. Super Sukhoi program (MLU) cost estimated to be $50-55 Mn dolls per bird with a contract value of 13.6-15 Bn$ out of which first batch 80 means a straight forward payment of $4+ Bn. Again that may be staggered as per the birds going in for MLU...
4. MTA program talks and again some investment to get some results as AN32 replacement plan B is not though of as of now.
They need to sit down and see how best they can plan the release of funds in a comprehensive foolproof 5-10 years plan.. and still leave scope for much more procurements..

This article is a rehash of information nothing else actually..as i stated Defensenews June 2015 article where 154 frames word was quoted by Raghuvanshy...

 

[MehrotraPrince]

Saurav Jha tweets

1. Some 50 more flanker frames will likely join the IAF beyond the 272. These could be Super 30s or even Su-35 MKI.

2. FGFA will be speeded up if the Russians agree to Indian demands on improvements and ToT.

3. Once govt revenues move into high gear around 2018 and France credibly discharges offsets, IAF might just end up getting 36 more Rafales.

 

[dadeechi]

Seems like Russian visit would be a damp squib as we now have a west leaning government supporting west leaning IAF.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

Seems like Russian visit would be a damp squib as we now have a west leaning government supporting west leaning IAF.

We have an India leaning and India leading govt. supporting west leaning IAF. Keep faith.

 

[Omega007]

@knight11 Well power plant is surely a problem, because the present one will not be able to deliver enough power to PAK FA to do Super Cruise, or super Maneuvers and limiting its top speed at low altitudes. Yes Stealth is also a problem. But IAF knows that Russians won't match the leaves of stealth of F35, all they want is that in clean configuration , the PMF/FGFA should have an RCS in range of 0.1- 0.01m^2 .

Ever seen the pictures of the YF23??It resembles the PAKFA prototypes to a good extent and it was even stealthier than F 22 Raptors!!Things are always not what they seem my brother!!

 

[Mamsalaphala]

Ever seen the pictures of the YF23??It resembles the PAKFA prototypes to a good extent and it was even stealthier than F 22 Raptors!!Things are always not what they seem my brother!!

I agree, which is why AMCA design need to undergo far more revisions and versions to optimise its specs.

 

[Omega007]

I agree, which is why AMCA design need to undergo far more revisions and versions to optimise its specs.

Especially the weight!!A mere 25 ton MTOW wouldn't even nearly suffice if they want to have a fighter with reasonable endurance and payload capabilities!!Even the single engined Lightning II has a MTOW of around 33 tons and with two engines,AMCA will definitely guzzle for fuel in a given amount of time,which means it would need to carry more fuel in its belly,which in turn would mean that it has to have a bigger belly (fuel tanks in this case),which will shoot up the MTOW!!Better set it higher in design face itself than having to complete all the design works and fabrication of prototypes and then finding out the baby has got short legs!!

 

[Mamsalaphala]

Especially the weight!!A mere 25 ton MTOW wouldn't even nearly suffice if they want to have a fighter with reasonable endurance and payload capabilities!!Even the single engined Lightning II has a MTOW of around 33 tons and with two engines,AMCA will definitely guzzle for fuel in a given amount of time,which means it would need to carry more fuel in its belly,which in turn would mean that it has to have a bigger belly (fuel tanks in this case),which will shoot up the MTOW!!Better set it higher in design face itself than having to complete all the design works and fabrication of prototypes and then finding out the baby has got short legs!!

Its designed with 414 engine in mind.