India Russia might sign contract for 154 FGFA this november

[#hydra#]

Actually I doubt this report, can anyone confirm the report. The source seems to me from some Russian site.may be some blog rushincash.com.


But F-35 is also not barred, and could be considered in future who knows.
Its right that India wants FGFA, because the country in the east is quickly building its 4th Gen replacing its old absolute fighter planes, but also have two 5th Gen in development. IAF have always tries to compensate the quantitative disadvantage with the quality edge, but its not there anymore. Looking at the Russian economy, Chinese money which could be pumped that can attracts best of their Scientists & Engineers, Ukraine crisis and the last but not the least Russia is not the Soviet anymore, and I have doubts on T-50 program.

I am in favour of giving ADA 2 billion to start a parallel program on AMCA for R&D ASAP.



There are various experts that doubt that ADA could not do this, but still I believe it is doable -- keeping aside the engine developement aka don't link AMCA with Kaveri-2.

1. The technology developed with AMCA could reflect in Tejas MK-2.
2. Many countries could be interested to join AMCA --- Israel, Brazil, Germany, Taiwan



There was one thread about the Pakistani Wish list of weapons from Russia, and a long thread on Su-35 purchase for PAF, one question for Su-35 deal for PAF -- What makes the Pakistani thinks that it is not sanction prone ?

Bet even westerners itself skeptic about f35,asper them 4++ gem su35 & EF typhoon can outmatch f35 any day,& it not a good choice to go for medium category slugish low observable expensive fighter( for some its just a strike aircraft not a fighter) like f35.
Its a time consuming process to design & perfecting a decent gen5 fighter from scratch even for a professional & experienced labs no matter how much money you pump to that project. So based on the track record ada will definitely will take minimum a decade or more to develop a amca,remember we don't have any powerhouse for amca yet not even a finalised the foreign parten for a jet engine development. Let's hope israel will partner with us amca project, even its a tough task to Induct amca in a decade.
So its better to stick with Russians for our stealth heavy fighter & amca project at the same time. Lastly uncle Sam will try to block Israeli participation in amca,actually there was a strong pressure from us against Israeli " kfir " fighter & which eventually cancelled by Israelis.so there is a tough time ahead for ada on amca design.

 

[jaiind]

Good Now we can look into our Stealth fighter option.

F-35 J-20

why not F 22??

 

[#hydra#]

why not F 22??

God was very kind to we Indians, luckily f22 is not for sale.

 

[jaiind]

God was very kind to we Indians, luckily f22 is not for sale.

even if F22 is for sale,would they afford to get it?? nah.. their upcoming generations would need to eat more grass than their earlier generations.

 

[knight11]

@Abingdonboy

Have been saying this since Jan that we will be buying the PakFa as is. They have excess capacities and we may see gradual upgradation of the same. And FGFA later.

The future will include Rafale, FGFA/PakFa, Su-30 and the Tejas. And this is only the IAF.

IAF not interested in Pakfa instead FGFA, the later given emphasis on stealth more + smaller that Pakfa

 

[#hydra#]

even if F22 is for sale,would they afford to get it?? nah.. their upcoming generations would need to eat more grass than their earlier generations.

"We’ll eat grass but build the bomb" that was the reaction by bhuto When we detonated our first nuclear device in 1974,and now they have there own bomb and if reports are true they are having numerical advantage oven india in this case.Bro I want to tell you one thing when it comes to defence money won't be a problem to any nation. If they want to buy f22 & if uncle Sam is willing to sell definitely money will be made available by Pakistani govt for sure,either by begging from outside or by looting from there own people.
After all my earlier reply to your post is 100% sarcastic in nature.

 

[jaiind]

"We’ll eat grass but build the bomb" that was the reaction by bhuto When we detonated our first nuclear device in 1974,and now they have there own bomb and if reports are true they are having numerical advantage oven india in this case.Bro I want to tell you one thing when it comes to defence money won't be a problem to any nation. If they want to buy f22 & if uncle Sam is willing to sell definitely money will be made available by Pakistani govt for sure,either by begging from outside or by looting from there own people.
After all my earlier reply to your post is 100% sarcastic in nature.

There is no possibility for them to get the cutting edge fighter jets through uncle sam, Even their closest allies like japs,brits didnt have F22. Thats why they are looking for F 35 into their airforce.

 

[Knight Rider]

even if F22 is for sale,would they afford to get it?? nah.. their upcoming generations would need to eat more grass than their earlier generations.

12 F-104 were enough for India and 12 F-35 would be a nice number to have. And new NEWS coming up Indian are going to be Labeled as a Threat to regional peace by Washington .ENJOY!!!!

American Readying their Weapons.

 

[jaiind]

12 F-104 were enough for India and 12 F-35 would be a nice number to have. And new NEWS coming up Indian are going to be Labeled as a Threat to regional peace by Washington .ENJOY!!!!

American Readying their Weapons.

then why are you waiting?? ghazwa e hind??

 

[Knight Rider]

then why are you waiting?? ghazwa e hind??

Obama and Nawaz Sharif shaking hands... New Policy in the making.

"Destroy India"

 

[jaiind]

Obama and Nawaz Sharif shaking hands... New Policy in the making.

"Destroy India"

Are you on drugs ??

 

[knight11]

@Abingdonboy

Have been saying this since Jan that we will be buying the PakFa as is. They have excess capacities and we may see gradual upgradation of the same. And FGFA later.

The future will include Rafale, FGFA/PakFa, Su-30 and the Tejas. And this is only the IAF.

IAF not interested in Pakfa instead FGFA, the later given emphasis on stealth more + smaller that P

Bet even westerners itself skeptic about f35,asper them 4++ gem su35 & EF typhoon can outmatch f35 any day,& it not a good choice to go for medium category slugish low observable expensive fighter( for some its just a strike aircraft not a fighter) like f35.
Its a time consuming process to design & perfecting a decent gen5 fighter from scratch even for a professional & experienced labs no matter how much money you pump to that project. So based on the track record ada will definitely will take minimum a decade or more to develop a amca,remember we don't have any powerhouse for amca yet not even a finalised the foreign parten for a jet engine development. Let's hope israel will partner with us amca project, even its a tough task to Induct amca in a decade.
So its better to stick with Russians for our stealth heavy fighter & amca project at the same time. Lastly uncle Sam will try to block Israeli participation in amca,actually there was a strong pressure from us against Israeli " kfir " fighter & which eventually cancelled by Israelis.so there is a tough time ahead for ada on amca design.

As I told you earlier I have doubt on Pak-fa/FGFA program, not because Russia can't do that, instead they end up with the one that fulfills RuAF needs not Indian requirement. Russia is not a Soviet anymore, and they too have to replace their old Mig-29's and old fighter aircraft fleet and cannot pump the amount of money like the Soviet used to. There is no lack of efficient Scientist and Engineers but problem is the finance e.g for Gan based AESA radar,they don't lack know how knowledge base, but the cost at which they could produced the TR-modules.

I don't know what you think of a 5th Gen fighter aircraft, but what I believe, its not just a plane but a complete system and not a plane. Its a complex system in which the fighter plane is just a platform to deliver the amunition -- Awaac, low RCS, Sensors, Powerful Mission computer aiding Pilot in taking the decission, Powerful radar, passive sensors, center fussion and situation awareness, Remote UAV, Smart weapons, Secured fast tactical link to acquire/distribute data among various sources and platform, Space based NAv and guidance, makes a complete 5th Gen fighter plane. So just acquiring just a plane PAK-FA or FGFA or F-35 won't give you any anything without getting all the pieces of the system to work in a tactical-battlefield close network system, it is just another Flanker Variant with some goodies.
First a question, why what is good for Russia is also good for India and fulfills its requirement. Why India chooses An-32 platform, Phalcon AEW from Russia, and rettrofitted in Ukraine, and why not directly buyed Falcon with its original air platform. So the question arises either IAF wanted to become another RuAF, with all the substems of the PAK-FA or develop the system according to its own need.
Coming into AMCA, first many people doubts Tejas and its delays by ADA. Tejas Program is not that much delayed as we think, it is delayed for around 2-3 years not more that that. First IAF takes 9 years to produced its ASQR, second economical crisis and sanctions and change in original ASQR twice, affects Kaveri, and Tejas IOC and FOC. Despite BABUS work culture, strong import lobbying ADA have done a great job in LCA Tejas, and who could dream that India could develop Turbo fan Engine (It was not able to achieve Modified Thrust requirement by 20%), Superb design, FBW, FADEEC in the country before LCA. For AMCA I am not expecting ADA to develop F-22, but the platform with the design similar to YF-23 as shown in ADA's model made with the composites and EW suites, and Indian Mission computer to work in the Indian Design for Indian Requirement in the Indian Network of Combat and survellance. Till Kaveri -2 is developed in the country use F-414 EPE, Till UTTAM developed fully use some other alternative, till ASTRA developed fully use Derby ER. And History have proved whenever there is requirement, a product could be produced from the sand. And there is no lack of tallent in the country for sure, lets have faith because they believe that they can do that and I have no reason to believe that they are just bitching, and help them by removing Babus and Congress-import lobby environment, nor ADA is asking 40 Billion to develop that.

@Abingdonboy @nForce @Irfan Baloch balooch @Whazzup @MastanKhan @Zarvan @SR-91 @PARIKRAMA @MilSpec

Sir, Your thoughts, forgive my ignorance if any.

 

[AtiF Malang]

Who cares about what Pakistan is doing? You guys still think you can get the Su-35? Why would your ACM's visit to Russia make anyone in India "sleepless"? Do you have $100BN to throw their way?

After mother of all deals The one and Only MMRCA and all tall talks from you people . I think on moral basis you shouldn't talk about $$$ .
All the countries are now well aware of your drams
We got Rd93 and Mi35
We will get Su 35 if and only if it satisfies PAF
Last time when we were purchasing avionics from france you people went for Mirages upgradation which clearly shows how much desprate you people are

 

[Abingdonboy]

The IAF during their exercise in Russia had again tested the Su35 with its power plant which is being used as a power plant for PAK FA too. And let me be frank IAF was not at all impressed.

Well this is rather irrelevant and blown up excessively by the media as that engine was/is NEVER meant to be the engine coming with the IAF's FGFAs.

This biggest achievement would be an agreement to build and supply 2 prototypes to IAF by 2017.

Simply isn't going to happen.

Yes for meanwhile we might get 2 squadrons of PAK FA.
But our ultimate goal is the FGFA.

Perhaps, taking the MKI model.

The Russians haven't left the IAF with much of a choice really.

i did not wanted to say that but 154 numbers is actually picked by newsreports from the vivek raghuvanshy Defense news site article on June 2015. So at present other than that in no place IAF had put that as requisite numbers in last 6 months. Infact IAF has said just 65.... and did not elaborate more... again that also in indian publications and no where Chief Raha had made any comments on the number aspect specifically quoting any of the figures - 65/157/127/250 etc.. at least not in last 6 months,,,

In this context any talk of numbers is meaningless. Who would have thought the IAF would eventually get 300+ Su-30MKIs back in the 90s? As Indian Mil (and most Mil procurements around the world) goes, orders will be made in tranches on a need basis. There will be a minimum figure (perhaps 154) but the eventual number can only be known a few decades later and could well be double this.

i totally agreed with both points you gentleman made.. i am no expert.. but i guess fgfa is a twin seater and t-50 is a single seater.. that means heavy modification needed on t-50... and if i am guessing correctly for russians their top priority is t-50.. not fgfa.. so it will be wise for IAF to go for few sqads t-50 immediately fill the gaps up.. than do side developement on fgfa in india in indian way just like mki..
@Abingdonboy

The easiest way to see it is that the FGFA is the IAF's "MKIsed" version of the PAK-FA/T-50 in the sense the FGFA is the variant with all their specific features (Indian/Israeli/French hardware integrated and perhaps a twin seat variant). Look at the differences between the Su-30MKI and the Su-30K/MK for an understanding of what the FGFA will look like in comparison to the PAK-FA/T-50.


The FGFA will always be the IAF's ultimate goal, anything else will be suboptimal.

For 5th generation aircraft India has limited option and this one is the best to sign this contract and first up buy T50 in made Russia and later modi\fy for IAF specific needs as done with SU 30 mki

The original batch of Su-30Ks the IAF got as an interim were never modified to the MKI standard but entirely replaced by MKIs and shipped back to Russia (where they remain today AFAIK). So I'm not sure how this PAK-FA buy would work, could they be upgraded to FGFA standard when the Su-30K couldn't be? If the IAF really is still holding out for the twin-seat variant then they would have to return the PAK-FAs entirely.

They will say why take a small MTA.. take PAK TA the transport version of PAKFA platform..
With that u can transport Armata too..
MTA whenever i remember that i feel like

It is almost the forgotten project which is bizarre given the extreme importance it will play for the IAF in the future. This silence is chilling, it is worse than trying and failing- it seems as though no one is even trying.

Right now the MoD and IAF may be focusing on the "sexy" stuff- fighters, missiles, attack helos etc but in about 7 years, unless the MTA is on the scene, they are going to be in a COLOSSAL mess. Over 100- yes 100- An-32 are in service today, calling it the backbone of the IAF's transport fleet is a severe understatement. When these start becoming more and more unserviceable what is the IAF going to do exactly? The Indian military walks from one disaster to another because of a lack of planning or decisive decision making but this disaster is all too predictable and can be seen today and yet no one seems to be interested in addressing it.

 

[Jai Bharat]

Man I cast my vote for modi expecting some swift changes both in defense & socio economic sectors, (since its a defence forum I won't talk any thing about later) I agree that they given order for apache & apart from what they have done all these days?
They reduced 126 figure rafis to 36 in the beginning,many months has passed but still no agreement ( of course its an insanely over priced one,if they are not satisfied with price they should cancel & go for another options ,and give some room for airforces to breath). Our under water fighting capabilities are pathetic still no decent torpedo for our submarines. When they reduced proposed number for army mountain division I thought our govt want to make army to be better equipped with top quality gears, the light weight howitzer still is an oasis.
It's a pathetic situation, no major defence purchases so far,every one praising Mr Parker including you & I am agreeing that he is better one compared to Mr Antony. But man we had a defence minister in earlier NDA govt one Mr George Fernandez, u have to compare pariker with george, not with some usles Sonia bakht.
And finally he always mouth fartef about befiting reply,& where is that reply?

Man if u can't do any wonder with in first year means they can't do it next four years also.

The difference in the NDA is the entire model of defence acquisitions changing. We need to keep in mind a goal of having a sanction-proof defence industry by 2030, that is also capable of levering exports to friendly nations, similar to the MIC diplomacy that US and Russia, who have leverage this against us many times before I should add, have pioneered. Parrikar has boosted defence FDI and embraced joint private partnerships for defence manufacture while finally decreasing the future role of HAL to one of integration, design, and testing rather than manufacturing, which will now be done with private players. Dhanush should be a model to follow in the future, nearly entirely indigenous except 2 components that will be indigenously made very soon, and private players being included in both future upgraded designs and manufacturing, M777 Howitzers will undoubtedly be reverse engineered and will also help influence design for future indigenous guns, which is a good thing because M777 is the best in the world. Don't even get me started on how much Tejas inductions will give a huge boost to our Air Force and finally impose a sense of ownership that will lend itself to future development. Such things would have never happened under foreign import-kickback mindset of UPA.

Foreign acquisition isn't going to change very much. We will continue to make nearly unreasonable demands and insist on discounts, offsets, ToT, and indigenous manufacturing. And why shouldn't we? People who seem desperate and hasty to make a deal will always get ripped off. Rafale is needed because it will also lend itself to AMCA development which is far more important.